[Denied]TM Distribution - a more feasible idea.

[Oikaze]

I might do a run through on an alt soon so I can get myself the other starters/one off pokemon etc... I could add in how long it took me to get each tm on the playthrough into that spreadsheet. If anyone else is doing a run through as well we can average the times to get a better idea of how long it takes.

[Strych]

I found this guide very helpful when doing a speedrun for the main TMs

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/7726-bare-minimum-alts-speedrun/

[Oikaze]

I found this guide very helpful when doing a speedrun for the main TMs

https://forums.pokem...-alts-speedrun/

Thank you, that will be very helpful. It will also make things an aweful lot quicker than I imagined. People in that thread are quoting 1.5 hours for earthquake which is a massive difference from how long it would take on a non speedrun playthrough.

[FNTCZ]

Amazing Idea +1

[Martan]

I support this!

[Oikaze]

https://docs.google....X1Nlc2owSXpOd1E

Updated the list. Each tm now has the time it took me to get to it during a run I did today. It should be noted that I took the time to get eevee, hitmonchan/lee, and the fossil pokes as well as losing to 2 gym leaders on account of my pokemon loafing around and fainting. If I'd done the run just to get the tms and nothing else (as well as if i'd done the run before), I would have been faster. I've done my best to time everything as accurately as possible, but the times listed should be considered as aprroximates.

[Darkshade]

https://docs.google....X1Nlc2owSXpOd1E

Updated the list. Each tm now has the time it took me to get to it during a run I did today. It should be noted that I took the time to get eevee, hitmonchan/lee, and the fossil pokes as well as loosing to 2 gym leaders on account of my pokemon loafing around and fainting. If I'd done the run just to get the tms and nothing else (as well as if i'd done the run before), I would have been faster. I've done my best to time everything as accurately as possible, but the times listed should be considered as aprroximates.

This is perfect. Thank you for putting the time in.

[ChrimsonRed]

[MHDEN]

This is taking to long to be implamented .... FASTER CODER SLAVES!

[Necromanster]

Is this idea still trying to get lifted up? I highly disagree with this idea and I'm sure other feel the same way I do. I'll give a more detail reason why I disagree with this idea when I reach a computer of some sort.

[FDTheGod]

This just got necro'd.

Actually, I still like this idea, and I think they should implement it.

Also... what happened to Dahaka?

[Darkshade]

[quote name='Zayith' timestamp='1359602809' post='178200']
Is this idea still trying to get lifted up? I highly disagree with this idea and I'm sure other feel the same way I do. I'll give a more detail reason why I disagree with this idea when I reach a computer of some sort.
[/quote]

It's being discussed, and yes, please do fill me in.

[SterlingStryke]

I will support this with a few tweaks

1. This is stacked on the chance of getting a a holdable item. So if I caught a Horsea I could get the TM Water Pulse and a Dragonscale.

2. Unless someone comes up with a counter-argument then make it so the TM is obtainable through them fainting. The reasoning behind this is cost and time... For less desirable TM's like Waterpulse it would be impossible to sell for a profit due to pokeball costs and for personal use it would be cheaper and possibly faster to get an alt to beat Misty. As for time, who the hell wants to do more box sifting?

3. Remove all TM's from the Celadon store or drastically bump up their prices.

[Atuan]

[quote name='SterlingStryke' timestamp='1359618070' post='178448']
I will support this with a few tweaks

1. This is stacked on the chance of getting a a holdable item. So if I caught a Horsea I could get the TM Water Pulse and a Dragonscale.

2. Unless someone comes up with a counter-argument then make it so the TM is obtainable through them fainting. The reasoning behind this is cost and time... For less desirable TM's like Waterpulse it would be impossible to sell for a profit due to pokeball costs and for personal use it would be cheaper and possibly faster to get an alt to beat Misty. As for time, who the hell wants to do more box sifting?

3. Remove all TM's from the Celadon store or drastically bump up their prices.
[/quote]

1. Disagree. Just don't see a reason for it. Dragon Scale aren't held by Horsea anyway.
2. Definitely disagree. You completely ignored Thief, Covet, and Trick. This costs no money. Also, Pokeballs expensive? No way. You can't put a price on TMs. As long as the time to farm is relevant to the time it takes to run an alt, this will work fine. Box sifting is something that needs to get improved eventually with an overhaul bringing shortcuts. (Namely an item indicator and a mass-release feature)
3. -looks around- Agreed. An argument I've heard about "TM shops" and whatnot is that the Celadon Dpt. Store already has Brick Break and Roar, two important moves in competitive play. Why should we spend an hour farming an Ice Beam when a couple of minutes with Pay Day can get use Brick Break and they're equally useful? Well, maybe we can just remove those two? I see two obvious problems with that. One is the amount of complaining that will come out of it. The other is anyone who stockpiled the TMs will have an advantage in the market. No way out of this, so I'd say just leave it. Boltbeamthrower happens to be the best of that type, where as BB falls short to Superpower and Cross Chop.

[SterlingStryke]

Atuan... You make logic where it is lacking, keep up the goood work lol. POKE MORE HOLES!

[Darkshade]

[quote name='SterlingStryke' timestamp='1359618070' post='178448']
I will support this with a few tweaks

1. This is stacked on the chance of getting a a holdable item. So if I caught a Horsea I could get the TM Water Pulse and a Dragonscale.

2. Unless someone comes up with a counter-argument then make it so the TM is obtainable through them fainting. The reasoning behind this is cost and time... For less desirable TM's like Waterpulse it would be impossible to sell for a profit due to pokeball costs and for personal use it would be cheaper and possibly faster to get an alt to beat Misty. As for time, who the hell wants to do more box sifting?

3. Remove all TM's from the Celadon store or drastically bump up their prices.
[/quote]

1.) That would make very little sense, and would require additional coding.

2.) That's partially the point, if they were so easy to get without any effort then we might as well give them away for free, a lot of them will be completely obtained accidentally through catching wild Pokemon, and if you're LOOKING for the TM's, that's why thief exists.

3.) Atuan covered this one very nicely, I don't think there is anything I can add.

[Ombre]

I applaud, but maybe it isn't the greatest idea to put some of the more desirable TMs on already desirable Pokemon. I'm specifically thinking Earthquake on Cubone, for example. That would just make the value of Cubone and Earthquake drop because people would catch them too much.

[Darkshade]

[quote name='Ombre' timestamp='1359650015' post='178895']
I applaud, but maybe it isn't the greatest idea to put some of the more desirable TMs on already desirable Pokemon. I'm specifically thinking Earthquake on Cubone, for example. That would just make the value of Cubone and Earthquake drop because people would catch them too much.
[/quote]

Cubone has a somewhat low encounter rate anyway, so whilst thats understandable, I can't see it posing a problem, especially as if people were setting out specifically in search of Earthquake, they'd likely be using Thief instead of wasting box slots and money on pokeballs.

[Atuan]

Might want to update the post if you weren't considering the islands. Cubone actually has a pretty high encounter rate in Sevault Canyon. I got two thick club's before I found a male Pupitar last night.

[Darkshade]

[quote name='Atuan' timestamp='1359652426' post='178939']
Might want to update the post if you weren't considering the islands. Cubone actually has a pretty high encounter rate in Sevault Canyon. I got two thick club's before I found a male Pupitar last night.
[/quote]

I took the islands in mind when assigning TM's :3

So if anything it's probably more relevant now.

And yeah I'd forgotten about Sevault Canyon, if they're common it doesn't matter anyway.

[Necromanster]

[quote name='Darkshade' timestamp='1359606475' post='178247']
It's being discussed, and yes, please do fill me in.
[/quote]

On of the main issues I have with this idea is how much TM's would drop in value due to them being as common as it is with this method. While there is a debates saying that they'll never make a TM Shop due to them dropping in value, I feel this goes to this method as well. With the current list you have now, majority of the TM's would be so easily obtainable that they'll have no value to begin with. For example, with the current list you have a 1~5% spawn rate for TM Giga Drain on Tangela. As we all know, Tangela will always be one of the most common Pokemon in existence due to people already EV Training at Tangela's to begin with. What doesn't help is people EV Training on Tangela's while using the move Thief. What one person could possibly due is attach EXP Share(s) onto desired EV'd Pokemon and sit tight with a bunch of cheap, almost free berries that heal 10 PP without any need to back and heal spamming the move Thief to murder and ramshack all of the corpses. With said method, you are not only accomplishing EV Training/EXP Grinding but you are also essentially stocking up on massive amounts of Giga Drain TMs which would diminish the TM market heavily. By the end of the month, daily players could be sitting tight with 100+ Giga Drain TM's that they can never use thus giving them out to players because they're just that worthless in value. At this rate, you might as well make a TM Shop. In order to prevent said method, you either have to give said TM on only rare Pokemon or make the spawn rate lower then 1~5%.

While a other way to prevent said problem above is to simply only give TM's on rare Pokemon spawns, there is a multitude of issues with that by itself. Due to the lack of land we have in Pokemon, I don't believe there is simply enough rare spawns to justified not lowering the spawn rates on the TM's. At the same time, lowering the TM's spawn rate while only spawning on rare Pokemon like Magmar is simply outrageous to begin with. To say, this requires balance and well thought out thinking to make the TM's obtainable enough that it is realistic if spent X amount of time without remaking a Alt Account but at the same time not too easily obtain that would completely ruin the economy due to how easy TM's are obtained in the first place. In order to help "balance" this all out, a lot of the spawns need to be changed as well as the numbers.

The main issue with all the spawning is the fact you are giving a flat % number for all TM's regardless what it is, where it comes from and what Pokemon it comes from. Even if the spawn rate of Giga Drain for example is 1% on Tangela's, Giga Drain would still be way too common and would still be completely useless in value due to it's spawn rate and how often people train there. In order to make it much more balance, the spawn rate of TM Giga Drain would have to be lower then 1% on Tangela's to balance this factor out. At the same time, looking at Magmar again, his spawn rate is much too low for a 1~5% drop rate of Overheat and is simply not realistic to collect. In order to balance the spawn rates out, you have to give each Pokemon a much different multiplier then 1%~5% reaching way below 1% and way above 5%. Lastly as far as spawn rates go, you should avoid putting TM's on heavily farmed areas to begin with such as Tangela and try to reinforce area's not very popular in order to not only make certain areas much more active but to avoid overflow of TM's and completely ruin the economy with TM Trades.

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To top things off, I have other issues evolving this method other then spawn rates needing to be adjusted. While the DEV's already stated that PokeMMO is planning to be it's own game with it's own meta, I don't feel entirely happy of completely disregarding parts of the real game to begin with. Due to TM's being spawned by wild Pokemon now, there is no real reason to take away value from the original game. TM Spawning shouldn't start right away like the idea suggest but rather after you meet 2 conditions. One, you collected the physical TM itself and second, if you've beaten the story mode or not. There is no reason for PokeMMO to take away the experience from the original game by spawning unlimited TM's before you've even beaten the game yet. If TM had unlimited spawn. This is a purely personal feeling on the matter but I already know others feel the same way I do. However, I do have a interesting idea that would take a mix of both the original game and your idea Darkshade while helping to even reduce Alt Account speed runs.

Rather then picking up the TM and just being able to trade it from the start, there should be rules behind it. We'll call it a TM License this time around. A TM License would be completely untradeable and would never disappear in your bags. To allow a more original experience and a award for obtaining the TM in the first place, allow the TM License to be used only 1 time that would act like a normal. Lastly, a TM License would allow said TM to be able to find in the wild. For example, if I own TM License 01, I would be able to find and catch wild Focus Punch TM's out in the wild. This method would not only make your method much more fun but it would also prevent Alt Accounts being made WHILE being able to keep the experience of the original Pokemon games.



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I hope this is a long enough read for you. I tried to keep it short so I didn't express all my feelings of the matter at least off the back. I know there is a lot of typos above too. I apologize.

[Darkshade]

[quote name='Zayith' timestamp='1359685738' post='179502']
The main issue with all the spawning is the fact you are giving a flat %
[/quote]

But I'm not, I've said on many pages that the percentage is to be discussed, higher ones on rarer Pokemon, lower ones on common pokemon, and that would also coincide with how quickly you could obtain them through an alt run through.

Which would cater to all of the issues you've pointed out.

a TM license causes an issue within itself due to people who have already completed the storyline, and could effectively stockpile them, and whilst I like the idea behind it, thing I have stated above would fix all issues.

[Atuan]

The percentages aren't hard to figure out, and this is the Alpha stage so plenty of testing is yet to be done.

Here's an example. Earthquake, regardless of how useful it is in the metagame, usually takes 40-60 minutes to obtain on an alt run, at best times recorded. With the biking grass rate at about seven encounters per minute, we just apply some math and go from there. Marowak is a little under 10% encounter rate at Sevault Canyon, so roughly two Marowak for every three minutes of non-stop encounter. We'll use forty-five minutes as the check, because you have to consider alt runs also gain ALL TMs and if the times were the same, most people would opt for alt runs. So this gives us thirty Marowak in a forty-five minute grind. If only one of those Marowak had an Earthquake, then that'd come out to a 3% held item rate. That doesn't seem too bad. I certainly would prefer grinding that, amongst various other useful items in the canyon, instead of running through the same god damn GLARE SAND ATTACK storyline over and over. Plus, certain people prefer certain Pokemon. I for one dislike Dragonite. If Dragon Claw were abundant on someone's account because they've been looking for a good Dratini, then I may trade them an Earthquake for it, as I've been farming a good Marowak the last few days. This promotes trade and doesn't devalue anything.

Of course, I'm a sociopath and I'd rather make the TMs even rarer, while simultaneously making alt runs harder.

[Darkshade]

[quote name='Atuan' timestamp='1359686965' post='179520']
This promotes trade and doesn't devalue anything.
[/quote]
^
[quote name='Atuan' timestamp='1359686965' post='179520']
Of course, I'm a sociopath and I'd rather make the TMs even rarer, while simultaneously making alt runs harder.
[/quote]

Me too.

[Necromanster]

[quote name='Darkshade' timestamp='1359685930' post='179506']
But I'm not, I've said on many pages that the percentage is to be discussed, higher ones on rarer Pokemon, lower ones on common pokemon, and that would also coincide with how quickly you could obtain them through an alt run through.

Which would cater to all of the issues you've pointed out.

a TM license causes an issue within itself due to people who have already completed the storyline, and could effectively stockpile them, and whilst I like the idea behind it, thing I have stated above would fix all issues.
[/quote]

I recommend fixing your original post to avoid repetitive respond then. There is a lot of post to look over to begin with (I roughly only looked through 1~7?). Well, I apologize. Anyhow...

It wouldn't fix all the issues. Wild TM Spawning would ruin the experience of the original game by adding multiple of said TM's before a player even caters to end game play. While this is a minor issue, there is still the issue of Alt. Speed Running. You wouldn't have to adjust the rates compared to a Alt. Speed run if TM License existed. A TM License would flat out fix the issue off people creating more accounts and annoying Desu and his/her's server space. While there is the issue of existing attacks to tackle, a system that would improve things in a long run is a hell of a lot better then just making players happy now during Alpha stage. What players should expect that this is a Alpha stage game and they should know things are subject to change, fairly or not and need to stop treating it like this is a game at the moment (this is a testing zone currently). I honestly feel like it is more of a excuse not to do work if the only worries are the existing accounts. You couldn't stockpile them if you only allowed TM Licensing to only work on the original trader's OT. Simple and a easy fix!