[Implemented] Crit Mechanics gen VI

[Darkshade]

I disagree entirely. I've played 6th gen a rather good amount, and the difference between 1.5x and 2x is fucking massive. So many times have I been hit by a critical and survived with a small amount of HP, while with 2x I would have been dead on the spot, and one of the few, if not only check to whatever threat they have out would have been eliminated.

Also, regarding Sniper Kingdra, Sniper increases critical damage, not critical hit rate. Super Luck increases critical hit rate by 1. (Although, neither ability is 3rd gen) It's Scope Lens + Focus Energy that actually grants 100% crit rate. In fact, you could argue that implementing gen 6 critical mechanics would weaken some of the most used "Defensive" pokemon, as a Curselax isn't quite as potent when any physical attacker with Focus Energy holding a Scope Lens can break through his curses, provided they get at least 1 turn to setup. This is especially true when you look at how many fighting types get Focus Energy.

If anything, this is probably one of the better suggestions I've seen recently.

That still doesn't address the moves that rely on Critical hit rate.

 

Yes it's quite the change, and can be a difference between a Pokemon surviving a Critical hit rate or not.

 

It seems to me though, that whilst this could be seen as beneficial in that respect, it goes outside of the borders of any existing Pokemon meta - with crit rate being buffed to suit the damage in generation VI.

 

The problem is with the critical hits overall, things can be done to reduce their power/rate, but then how far does one go before the point of critical hits are defeated entirely, they can very rarely be 'fair', without killing off one thing or another.

 

They can be considered 'fair' due to the fact that everybody has the same chance of having them take effect, but the roll for usage is based largely on RNG for the majority of moves.

 

And then if this were to happen, what of those moves? Leave them be? Buff them? Is it worth killing off part of their usability for -0.5x Crit damage (Probably, but it's worth taking into account.)

 

And in regards to Sniper - I'm aware, that's why I said a 'a boosted' (In regards to the damage, not the rate).

[Tranzmaster]

I disagree entirely. I've played 6th gen a rather good amount, and the difference between 1.5x and 2x is fucking massive. So many times have I been hit by a critical and survived with a small amount of HP, while with 2x I would have been dead on the spot, and one of the few, if not only check to whatever threat they have out would have been eliminated.

 

Freeze/Burn/Paralysis/Poison can be as decisive in a game as a crit depending on the situation. (Definately Freeze and Paralysis) And most of the time, it even happens more often. Moves with a secondary effect start from 10% chance on the secondary effect, while crits only happen starting from 6,25%.

 

You're focusing too hard on changing one part of RNG, while the other aspects or RNG are as important, yet nobody has an issue with that (well maybe they do, but not publicly... yet.)

 

The argument is pretty irrelevant in perspective to the fact that it will never be fair unless you cut out the RNG completely.

[ThinkNice]

Because I'm playing League atm I can't really make a big post. I just quickly want to say, you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. I don't care about the fairness of getting crit. This suggestion is not meant to make crits more fair, it's just a way to make it have less of an impact in battles. The difference between 1,5 and 2 can be huge especially if we are talking about super effective hits.

[Emlee]

Because I'm playing League atm I can't really make a big post. I just quickly want to say, you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. I don't care about the fairness of getting crit. This suggestion is not meant to make crits more fair, it's just a way to make it have less of an impact in battles. The difference between 1,5 and 2 can be huge especially if we are talking about super effective hits.

I can't like this but I was going to say something along these lines. So, I agree with Thinkie here.

 

Think of this (again) as less of a whine about being fair or not and more of a "people shouldn't be able to get enough crits in a match to allow them to win". That statement is entirely different to "he crit me at one crucial time and won because of it". 

[Tranzmaster]

"people shouldn't be able to get enough crits in a match to allow them to win". That statement is entirely different to "he crit me at one crucial time and won because of it". 

 

But now you're talking about Crit Rate.

 

Can we please make clear what we're talking about, because one is talking about nerfing crit damage, the other about crit rate, another one about both...

[Emlee]

But now you're talking about Crit Rate.

 

Can we please make clear what we're talking about, because one is talking about nerfing crit damage, the other about crit rate, another one about both...

I still think the suggestion would apply to what I am saying. You're taking it out of context in order to dismiss me but alright. 

 

ITT: Legitimate suggestion goes unexamined because staff intends on dismissing it as whining and zeroing in on phrasing as opposed to the points people are attempting to make. 

 

I give up. 

[Tranzmaster]

I still think the suggestion would apply to what I am saying. You're taking it out of context in order to dismiss me but alright. 

 

I wasn't taking it out of context.

 

There are just things discussed that aren't suggested in the OP (and ThinkNice just clarfied it).

 

That's why I wanted that everybody to be clear about which aspect they wanted to see changed. This was not directly at you in particular, nor did I take it out of context to dismiss you.

 

Can we get back on topic please.

[Emlee]

I wasn't taking it out of context.

 

There are just things discussed that aren't suggested in the OP (and ThinkNice just clarfied it).

 

That's why I wanted that everybody to be clear about which aspect they wanted to see changed. This was not directly at you in particular, nor did I take it out of context to dismiss you.

 

Can we get back on topic please.

The entire point of me stating that was to let it be known that "I don't believe crits should matter as much as they do therefore I think this suggestion could help, or that a solution should be found." I don't think I should be told I am off topic based on the reason for my support of the suggestion.

 

Also if it wasn't directed at me then why the quote...

 

Anyway. 

[Darkshade]

ITT: Legitimate suggestion goes unexamined because staff intends on dismissing it as whining and zeroing in on phrasing as opposed to the points people are attempting to make. 

 

But that's not true, the suggestion itself is based around a damage change, without the additional crit rate changes.

 

I don't think simply lowering the damage without changing the rates also is a good idea, because of the impact it would have on moves that rely on crit rate, as mentioned above.

 

And my concern with implementing the generation VI rates was the ability to give the Pokemon the 100% chance to crit (Which in fairness is a legitimate strategy, but also very powerful).

 

After conversing with Senile on TeamSpeak (Who also agrees the rates should change with the damage, so that the moves mentioned before don't get badly nerfed) he managed to quell any concern I had with an 100% crit rate, as all of the major threats who use an 100% crit rate also have access to stat boosting moves, which actually benefit them moreso.

 

Generation VI Critical Hit mechanics are a good idea, but all of them, including the rates.

 

I think there is a lot of confusion going on in this thread, so hopefully this clears things up.

[Senile]

I'd like to clarify, this idea would be ideal with gen 6 crit rates as well. This makes it so that high critical hit rates moves aren't nerfed, as they have an actual niche (Focus Energy+High Crit Rate moves have 100% critical hit chance), as well as nerfing the damage criticals do to help prevent sudden death. This also provides a (very) niche way to deal with the massive threat of Curselax, considering Snorlax is found on ~50% of teams.

Also, Tranz, you argument saying that the 10% status effects happen more often is a blatant fallacy. Those status effects only have a chance to occur on specific moves, Criticals can happen on any move. Not only that, but it's entirely irrelevant, you can't say that one thing shouldn't be adjusted to be fair because there are "Worse" things.

Edit: Oh look ninjas

Edited November 27, 2013 by Senile

[Emlee]

The entire point of me stating that was to let it be known that "I don't believe crits should matter as much as they do therefore I think this suggestion could help, or that a solution should be found." I don't think I should be told I am off topic based on the reason for my support of the suggestion.

 

 

But that's not true, the suggestion itself is based around a damage change, without the additional crit rate changes.

 

I have quoted myself to a response to the above. For clarification I simply think a rework could be useful but am not an authority on Pokemon mechanics to determine what that entails exactly. I think the OP suggestion could be a step in the right direction even if it involves some tweaking. 

 

My opinion is pretty naive though, I am sure. I am just an observer. 

[ThinkNice]

I'd like to clarify, this idea would be ideal with gen 6 crit rates as well. This makes it so that high critical hit rates moves aren't nerfed, as they have an actual niche (Focus Energy+High Crit Rate moves have 100% critical hit chance), as well as nerfing the damage criticals do to help prevent sudden death. This also provides a (very) niche way to deal with the massive threat of Curselax, considering Snorlax is found on ~50% of teams.

Also, Tranz, you argument saying that the 10% status effects happen more often is a blatant fallacy. Those status effects only have a chance to occur on specific moves, Criticals can happen on any move. Not only that, but it's entirely irrelevant, you can't say that one thing shouldn't be adjusted to be fair because there are "Worse" things.

Edit: Oh look ninjas

I have no problem with this, but aren't moves like Cross Chop stage 2 crit rates? So they aren't affected by the gen VI changes unless you use Focus Energy or Scope Lense, actually seeing Scope Lense Machamp would be pretty interesting.

[Senile]

I have no problem with this, but aren't moves like Cross Chop stage 2 crit rates? So they aren't affected by the gen VI changes unless you use Focus Energy or Scope Lense, actually seeing Scope Lense Machamp would be pretty interesting.

Cross Chop is 1 stage, so are moves similar to it. You could run Focus Energy with it for 100% crit rate, but Scope Lens would only give 50% (Which actually isn't that terrible, as you could run something like Bulk Up in conjunction with it and troll the shit out of Skarmory)

Edit: Actually, let me adjust that: It's 2 stages in gen 3, but 1 stage in gens 4+, but if we're implementing gen 6 crits, it would get changed to +1 anyway.

[Tranzmaster]

Criticals can happen on any move. Not only that, but it's entirely irrelevant, you can't say that one thing shouldn't be adjusted to be fair because there are "Worse" things.

 

Crits don't happen on Flat damage moves and non damaging moves (which is a lot).

 

And the suggestion was about making a certain RNG aspect less game decisive, so it's actually quite relevant to point out that other RNG aspects can be as decisive as crits.

[ThinkNice]

Cross Chop is 1 stage, so are moves similar to it. You could run Focus Energy with it for 100% crit rate, but Scope Lens would only give 50% (Which actually isn't that terrible, as you could run something like Bulk Up in conjunction with it and troll the shit out of Skarmory)

Edit: Actually, let me adjust that: It's 2 stages in gen 3, but 1 stage in gens 4+, but if we're implementing gen 6 crits, it would get changed to +1 anyway.

Yea that's what I meant so Cross Chop has a ~12% chance to crit as opposed to normal hits which are ~6%, but my point was. This is the same as in gen VI so if we would change the crit rates it would only apply if the user uses a Scope or Focus Energy or something.

[Senile]

Crits don't happen on Flat damage moves and non damaging moves (which is a lot).

 

And the suggestion was about making a certain RNG aspect less game decisive, so it's actually quite relevant to point out that other RNG aspects can be as decisive as crits.

I actually meant to say attacking moves, not including flat damage or non damaging moves, but simply forgot to include it. Also, you're ignoring the fact that attacking moves that can crit far outnumber those that have a 10% status chance, the fact high critical hit rate moves have a higher chance than normal as well.

Also, no, it's not at all relevant, because the Gen 6 changes are canon. It's not the same to suggest Gen 6 crit mechanics as it is to whine about 10% freeze on something like Ice Beam.

[G0dPower]

Off topic but petition to change the results of all matches that were decided by a last turn crit.

 

Seriously, couldn't you have thought of this before the July team tourney?

[XelaKebert]

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[Barrage]

I figured I would link this thread, as it covers some of the pros and cons and sheds some light on the subject. It is important to keep in mind the circumstances under which Game Freak decided to make this balancing change, and the entire implications of it. I may return to highlight some key points. In the meantime, I encourage anyone who's interested to read up on this thread and give feedback regarding what is applicable to PokeMMO and what is not.

 

One of the things mentioned in that thread that was not covered in this one is crit-fishing and instant recovery. While situational, it is harder to break a Pokemon's stall when they are using moves like recover, and you could potentially get stalled out due to lower damage when you do get that oh so sought after crit. Whether or not that is good or bad is debatable.

[Darkshade]

Interested to hear further opinions on Generation VI Critical Hit damage and rates, so putting this thread back in the limelight.

[Senile]

Interested to hear further opinions on Generation VI Critical Hit damage and rates, so putting this thread back in the limelight.

Well, I'm just gonna go ahead and elaborate on how great this idea is.

Obviously, first and foremost, 1.5x has a significantly lower impact on a match as compared to 2x. To some people, it might not seem like a big deal, but it's a pretty big deal. 2x turns 2HKO's into clean OHKO's, something 1.5x frequently fails to do. Of course, as this part should be pretty obvious to most people, there's little need to go into detail about it.

Besides this, Gen 6 crits also diversify the meta by making crit abuse viable, and making criticals more reliable if you choose to abuse them. 50% and 100% crit rates being achievable gives a way to break defensive boosts other than the conventional methods of phazing, and makes crits something that isn't just a totally random phenomenon that serve 0 competitive purpose.

Besides that, it gives a better use to some of the high crit moves with lower base power, as well as not making Focus Energy and Scope Lens total trash.

TL;DR: pls gib

[Statius]

How to deal with the wall relying OU shit tier? Don't play it and come join others in the uu/nu tier!

[Archinix]

Personally, I highly believe this needs to be implemented, criticals are so damn overpowering at 2x, 1.5x is infinitely better. Also, 100% crit rate shreks dem snorlaxs.

[OrangeManiac]

The 1.5x crit damage has my support also. It's nice to settle matches mostly by good plays, not by RNG. The 2x crits are way too game changing.

 

Edit: Also I like the chance of getting yourself higher critical ratio - it prevents Baton Pass chains getting too powerful with the crit damage reduce.

[Gaxeus]

 SB Rule 8. Please do not leave posts that state your agreement/disagreement with the Original Post without providing an explanation, or critique, these posts will be hidden. You can simply like a post to state your agreement or post as a reason why you do not. i.e. +1, -1, yes, no, are not acceptable posts.