[Denied]Make Destiny Knot cause more IVs to be passed by breeding Pokemon

[Crystal6]

This is the only thing that makes me wish to play generation 6. The Destiny Knot.

 

Its a held item whose primary affect says, if the user becomes infatuated so does the opponents.

 

It's secondary affect however is particularly interesting. It raises the likelyhood of the parents passing on their IVs to the child.

 

An item like this would mean less time spent in breeding hell and more time spent battling in tournaments. It would also mean players battling in tournaments would be more likely to be the ones with the best strategies, rather than the ones that have been playing the longest/have the most money.

[Eggplant]

If anything, they're gonna nerf breeding. People are already selling comps for less than 50k. Which is a few minutes of payday.

 

The point of an MMO is in fact to favor those who'll spend time on it. Pokemon showdown will favor the strategy gurus.

[bl0nde]

 less time spent in breeding hell

As long as you go out and catch some good IV dittos or a few good monsters in different egg groups, you should be able to hatch some good pokemon with a little bit of time. The breeding system that is currently in place is about 2x less time consuming than the one we used to have.

 

One thing you should do is read up on all the tricks of breeding and make sure you are doing everything you can be doing to more quickly hatch some good eggs.

[Gilan]

Important concept: this is an mmo.
Great, perfect things will/should not be handed to us. If you want to spend all of your time battling in tournaments and not time making/buying/catching your comps, then there is showdown.

This game is not only defined by the competitions, but also the community (which the comp community now hates me XD) and the time investment the players have to make to get to the top.

I will never support a breeding buff, and will continue to support a breeding nerf.

[Crystal6]

Important concept: this is an mmo.
Great, perfect things will/should not be handed to us. If you want to spend all of your time battling in tournaments and not time making/buying/catching your comps, then there is showdown.

This game is not only defined by the competitions, but also the community (which the comp community now hates me XD) and the time investment the players have to make to get to the top.

I will never support a breeding buff, and will continue to support a breeding nerf.

Are you suggesting X and Y is not an mmo? Are you also suggesting this will kill the breeding community? If anything it would mean the breeding community will be more important as people start shooting for perfect 31 across the board stats instead of the vaguely passable stats I see being toted as "godly."

[Gilan]

Are you suggesting X and Y is not an mmo? Are you also suggesting this will kill the breeding community? If anything it would mean the breeding community will be more important as people start shooting for perfect 31 across the board stats instead of the vaguely passable stats I see being toted as "godly."

X and Y is not an mmo. It has no economy.

I am not suggesting that the breeding community will be killed, in fact it would sky rocket in popularity, which would cause a complete crash of Pokemmo's economy.

edit: if you reeeaaaaly want to consider x and y as an mmo and completely ignore all of the cheating that is available in the cartridge games, then so be it. But you cannot compare x and y to Pokemmo in this category.

[Crystal6]

X and Y is not an mmo. It has no economy.

I am not suggesting that the breeding community will be killed, in fact it would sky rocket in popularity, which would cause a complete crash of Pokemmo's economy.

edit: if you reeeaaaaly want to consider x and y as an mmo and completely ignore all of the cheating that is available in the cartridge games, then so be it. But you cannot compare x and y to Pokemmo in this category.

 

I suppose there is cheating but if you enter an official tournament with a hacked pokemon you will be punished, and most players will refuse to do buisness with you.

 

And, X and Y do have an economy. It tends to vary a bit from community to community (its not unified in the same way a more traditional mmo is) but there is still certainly an economy. If there weren't you could be like "Yo dog I have this ratata or whatever. Can I have a legit shiny perfect IV Mewtwo with maxed out EV training?" and everyone would be like "Sure we have 50 of those. They're common as dirt."

 

All that said you could certainly make an arguement for various aspect of the X and Y economy. (Are legit shinies/godly pokemon too easy to get?) but you don't seem to be making that arguement. The in-game mechanics of this mmo are essentially identical to an already existing pokemon gaming minus the cheating and adding in a few mmo related tweaks. I can't understand the claim that later innovations made by the people who invented the series in the first place aren't comparible or are completely irrelavent, especially when the creators are still adding the new pokemon and regions from the later games.

[Darkshade]

And, X and Y do have an economy.

 

X and Y had an economy upon release, where Ditto's were scarce because few people had reached the end of the game, females held value because they were crucial to breeding many things.

(I remember putting up multiple baby Fennekin's due to resetting for a female one to be able to use for breeding, and with this I was able to obtain all of the starters with ease).

 

When the Destiny Knot mechanics had not yet been revealed by Masuda, and 31 IV Pokemon were rare, but not to the point where they were impossible, but they certainly took a lot of time to obtain.

 

With the introduction of Powersaves and a very leanient Pokemon bank hack-check (and even with a good one, RNG'd Pokemon wouldn't be picked up), that economy was lost.

Now whatever economy X/Y have is hardly better than the one that existed with the existance of cheat devices. - It barely has one at all.

The Mewtwo you mention above is something I could obtain in about 5 minutes, it's nothing special - and that is the problem.

 

The first few days of X/Y had a fantastic economy, and I certainly had a lot of fun participating in it, sadly it was never built to last.

 

The problem with economics in Pokemon games is that is has to appeal to two very important factors;

 

- Rarity and difficulty to obtain ('Cloning' or 'Reproduction' plays a large part in this).

 

- A way to obtain reasonably high IVs to satisfy a competitive meta game.

 

These two factors contradict each other greatly, and I think it's important to find a middle ground.

 

I don't think we've quite reached it yet personally, nor do I think the Destiny knot fits in with our current system very well at all.

[Noad]

Breeding is really easy now in my opinion. I don't think we need to make it easier.

[Crystal6]

X and Y had an economy upon release, where Ditto's were scarce because few people had reached the end of the game, females held value because they were crucial to breeding many things.

(I remember putting up multiple baby Fennekin's due to resetting for a female one to be able to use for breeding, and with this I was able to obtain all of the starters with ease).

 

When the Destiny Knot mechanics had not yet been revealed by Masuda, and 31 IV Pokemon were rare, but not to the point where they were impossible, but they certainly took a lot of time to obtain.

 

With the introduction of Powersaves and a very leanient Pokemon bank hack-check (and even with a good one, RNG'd Pokemon wouldn't be picked up), that economy was lost.

Now whatever economy X/Y have is hardly better than the one that existed with the existance of cheat devices. - It barely has one at all.

The Mewtwo you mention above is something I could obtain in about 5 minutes, it's nothing special - and that is the problem.

 

The first few days of X/Y had a fantastic economy, and I certainly had a lot of fun participating in it, sadly it was never built to last.

 

The problem with economics in Pokemon games is that is has to appeal to two very important factors;

 

- Rarity and difficulty to obtain ('Cloning' or 'Reproduction' plays a large part in this).

 

- Allowing for a competitive meta game that relies on high IVs.

 

These two factors contradict each other greatly, and I think it's important to find a middle ground.

 

I don't think we've quite reached it yet personally, nor do I think the Destiny knot fits in with our current system very well at all.

I'm not sure. The reason the economy was destroyed here appears to be hacking devices, not destiny knot. O_o Sadly it does ruin X and Y as a test case though, since we can't know what impact destiny knot would have on the community without cheating/hacking devices also being present. (Unless we use this MMO as the test case, or find some other way to test it. sigh...)

 

Wait, you could get a LEGIT shiny perfect IV mewtwo easily? For a normal ratata? :? How?

 

Edit: I suppose pokesave and whatnot would make it easy to clone existing legit ones but... to get that Mewtwo initially someone would have to save scum the unknown dungeon event for sooo long... O_o did someone do that?

[Darkshade]

I'm not sure. The reason the economy was destroyed here appears to be hacking devices, not destiny knot. O_o Sadly it does ruin X and Y as a test case though, since we can't know what impact destiny knot would have on the community without cheating/hacking devices also being present. (Unless we use this MMO as the test case, or find some other way to test it. sigh...)

 

Wait, you could get a LEGIT shiny perfect IV mewtwo easily? For a normal ratata? :? How?

 

I'd be inclined to disagree somewhat, the introduction of Destiny Knot oversatured the economy with Pokemon which had 31 IVs in almost every stat, and with the mechanics that allow for almost cloning Pokemon, once one person has obtained one, it's very easy to obtain another, with less effort than it previously was.

 

It's fairly easy to see the effects Destiny Knot would have on our economy, our breeding system is similar, with a way of pumping out similar Pokemon that progressively get better over time, with a Destiny Knot you're only encouraging the production of Pokemon that are even more alike than before, cloning, if you will.

 

And with the ability to manipulate save data, externally clone or alter Pokemon, obtaining such a thing is very simple.

You only need one person to go through the issue of obtaining said Mewtwo once before it is made widely available to the entire X/Y playerbase (Which is also very easy with RNG abuse).

It's similar to the breeding system itself, except on a more rapid scale.

There are people willing to give away Pokemon that are supposed to be considered 'rare' for absolutely nothing, because they are so easy to obtain, the market is oversatured with these Pokemon.

 

The problem comes down to where you draw the line between 'Cloning' and RNG; Nobody enjoys RNG, but it's a large part of what keeps such an economy balanced.

[Gilan]

consider this: destiny knot passes 5ivs directly from the parents. Also consider the fact that there are quite a few perfect or near perfect pokemon (only 1 perfect pokemon is needed for this) In a day or less at least one 5x31 baby will be produced. That person then sells that baby. The new owner is now producing at least one 5x31 baby a day. etc. etc.

The point is, in very little time at all, godly pokemon will become worthless and the entire pokemmo economy will collapse similarly to what cheating devices did for the cartridge games.

The certainty that the economy would collapse is real. <- that is my argument.

[imguridiancity]

The point is, we don't need perfect IV pokemon. I like breeding where it is now though, compared to the breeding hell of October-December. Pokemon with 3 IVs under 10-15 will really hurt you in a battle, but the difference between 25 and 31 for an IV is almost inconsequential, as long as you're not going for max speed.

 

So, currently, we have a system where it's not too hard to create a competitive pokemon that can still compete with any near-perfect pokemon, but it's still difficult to create those near-perfect pokemon. And, due to their difficulty, those near perfect pokemon still have a lot of value. When a comp pokemon can be worth more than a shiny that's only 1 in "8192" to encounter, that's a good sign breeding isn't too easy. It's a really good balance right now.

[Emlee]

No. Breeding is already easy enough. Just because it's in a Pokemon game does not mean it should be in PokeMMO. 

 

Keyword: Balance 

[Crystal6]

But the description doesn't say it passes the ivs on every time, just that it raises the odds of passing on all 5 IVs from BOTH parents. So having one perfect poke parent does not even mean the baby would be perfect, it means MAYBE it would get 2 or 3 of the perfect IVs from that parent.

 

All that said, if the destiny knot really would create an issue if it were translated as is from X and Y, you could always nerf it but still have some kind of item that helps this a bit. I'd argue the pokeconomy is already in a weird place when I see crap pokes with players demanding up to a mil for them, while other players are selling good pokes for 50k. It's the most bipolar/unregulated economy I've ever witnessed in a game.

 

In general I'd say it can be pretty inaccessible for newer players to try to enter into an economy like this.

[Emlee]

No. It's a bad idea. It doesn't matter if it's a "maybe" chance. It's an increased chance. If it's implemented in anyway it won't be with the same mechanics as the console game as it, and that means a huge difference... a big enough difference that it would probably be almost pointless. I would say it's not happening, Sorry. 

[imguridiancity]

But the description doesn't say it passes the ivs on every time, just that it raises the odds of passing on all 5 IVs from BOTH parents. So having one perfect poke parent does not even mean the baby would be perfect, it means MAYBE it would get 2 or 3 of the perfect IVs from that parent.

 

All that said, if the destiny knot really would create an issue if it were translated as is from X and Y, you could always nerf it but still have some kind of item that helps this a bit. I'd argue the pokeconomy is already in a weird place when I see crap pokes with players demanding up to a mil for them, while other players are selling good pokes for 50k. It's the most bipolar/unregulated economy I've ever witnessed in a game.

 

In general I'd say it can be pretty inaccessible for newer players to try to enter into an economy like this.

The Destiny Knot makes 5 IVs inherit, meaning only 1 IV is truly left to chance. That's stupid. It's obviously stupid. It's meant to cater to a competitive scene where everyone is expected to have full 31 IV pokemon, because it's easy to get them, and since you can't prevent people from hacking them in, it's always going to be easy.

 

Play the game some more, get involved in the comp scene, and then come back. Pretty soon you'll realize you don't need 6x31 IV pokemon. The economy in this game really does make a lot of sense, you just don't understand it yet. If there really is such a crazy bipolar swing to pricing, then feel free to take advantage of it and make a bajillion yen in a day. But it isn't, so that won't happen, but really feel free to try. People actually value their possessions in this game, unlike in X and Y where everything is worth so little that if you pay 10x too much for something, it's no big deal because everything is so worthless.

[Crystal6]

The Destiny Knot makes 5 IVs inherit, meaning only 1 IV is truly left to chance. That's stupid. It's obviously stupid. It's meant to cater to a competitive scene where everyone is expected to have full 31 IV pokemon, because it's easy to get them, and since you can't prevent people from hacking them in, it's always going to be easy.

 

Play the game some more, get involved in the comp scene, and then come back. Pretty soon you'll realize you don't need 6x31 IV pokemon. The economy in this game really does make a lot of sense, you just don't understand it yet. If there really is such a crazy bipolar swing to pricing, then feel free to take advantage of it and make a bajillion yen in a day. But it isn't, so that won't happen, but really feel free to try. People actually value their possessions in this game, unlike in X and Y where everything is worth so little that if you pay 10x too much for something, it's no big deal because everything is so worthless.

 

I'm not such a big jerk that I'm going to abuse the system by buying the reasonably priced pokes (pretty good IVs for reasonably low prices) and crank up the price just because that guy over there is selling a way worse pokemon for way more. All I'd be doing is perpetuating the worst parts of the economy.

[Gilan]

But the description doesn't say it passes the ivs on every time, just that it raises the odds of passing on all 5 IVs from BOTH parents. So having one perfect poke parent does not even mean the baby would be perfect, it means MAYBE it would get 2 or 3 of the perfect IVs from that parent.

 

All that said, if the destiny knot really would create an issue if it were translated as is from X and Y, you could always nerf it but still have some kind of item that helps this a bit. I'd argue the pokeconomy is already in a weird place when I see crap pokes with players demanding up to a mil for them, while other players are selling good pokes for 50k. It's the most bipolar/unregulated economy I've ever witnessed in a game.

 

In general I'd say it can be pretty inaccessible for newer players to try to enter into an economy like this.

Ummm... I have played, and still do play Gen VI and I can assure you that the Destiny Knot guarantees 5 IVs from a pool formed from both Parent's IVs to be passed to the offspring.

 

i.e. Let's say you only have one perfect parent and another parent with perfect 0 IV's just for laughs.

Round 1.

Parent 1 = 31/31/31/31/31/31

Parent 2 = 0/0/0/0/0/0

Offspring 1 = (lets say you breed 5 offspring and one comes out to be) 0/0/31/0/31/0  (though you could easily get better).

 

Round 2.

Parent 1 = 31/31/31/31/31/31

Parent 2 (Offspring 1) = 0/0/31/0/31/0  (your chances to pass 31 IVs to the baby has significantly increased)

Offspring 2 = (you breed 5 more. [Already you are guaranteed at least one 31]) 31/0/31/31/31/0

 

Round 3.

Parent 1 = 31/31/31/31/31/31

Parent 2 (Offspring 2) = 31/0/31/31/31/0

Offspring 3 = (you again breed 5 more. [Now you are guaranteed at least three 31's]) 31/0/31/31/31/31

 

Round 4.

Parent 1 = 31/31/31/31/31/31

Parent 2 (Offspring 3) = 31/0/31/31/31/31

Offspring 4 = (again breed 5. [guaranteed at least four 31's]) 31/31/31/0/31/31   (If you keep breeding with this combination, then you have a about a 1/4 chance of picking up the 0 for the offspring, and the 6th IV is anywhere in the range of 0-31)... If someone could check me on the 1/4 chance, that would be great. The probability isn't making sense in my head.

 

That is exactly how it works. I have a 6 x 31 IV ditto from Japan that I use in my Y version that I am currently breeding Zangoose's with and they are all popping out with 5 x 31 IVs, with the occasional 4 x 31 IV and a 0 IV, and a rare, but not thaaaat rare, nowhere near a shiny, 6 x 31 (I have yet to get that with Zangoose's, but I have accomplished it with Honedges fairly easily).

 

I just wanted to clarify this to explain how Over Powered it is and how easy it makes breeding.

[Crystal6]

Ummm... I have played, and still do play Gen VI and I can assure you that the Destiny Knot guarantees 5 IVs from a pool formed from both Parent's IVs to be passed to the offspring.

 

i.e. Let's say you only have one perfect parent and another parent with perfect 0 IV's just for laughs.

Round 1.

Parent 1 = 31/31/31/31/31/31

Parent 2 = 0/0/0/0/0/0

Offspring 1 = (lets say you breed 5 offspring and one comes out to be) 0/0/31/0/31/0  (though you could easily get better).

 

Round 2.

Parent 1 = 31/31/31/31/31/31

Parent 2 (Offspring 1) = 0/0/31/0/31/0  (your chances to pass 31 IVs to the baby has significantly increased)

Offspring 2 = (you breed 5 more. [Already you are guaranteed at least one 31]) 31/0/31/31/31/0

 

Round 3.

Parent 1 = 31/31/31/31/31/31

Parent 2 (Offspring 2) = 31/0/31/31/31/0

Offspring 3 = (you again breed 5 more. [Now you are guaranteed at least three 31's]) 31/0/31/31/31/31

 

Round 4.

Parent 1 = 31/31/31/31/31/31

Parent 2 (Offspring 3) = 31/0/31/31/31/31

Offspring 4 = (again breed 5. [guaranteed at least four 31's]) 31/31/31/0/31/31   (If you keep breeding with this combination, then you have a about a 1/4 chance of picking up the 0 for the offspring, and the 6th IV is anywhere in the range of 0-31)... If someone could check me on the 1/4 chance, that would be great. The probability isn't making sense in my head.

 

That is exactly how it works. I have a 6 x 31 IV ditto from Japan that I use in my Y version that I am currently breeding Zangoose's with and they are all popping out with 5 x 31 IVs, with the occasional 4 x 31 IV and a 0 IV, and a rare, but not thaaaat rare, nowhere near a shiny, 6 x 31 (I have yet to get that with Zangoose's, but I have accomplished it with Honedges fairly easily).

 

I just wanted to clarify this to explain how Over Powered it is and how easy it makes breeding.

 

If it were literally translated like that then I suppose but you don't have to do it that way. It could just increase the odds of both parents passing their IVs.

 

I guess I don't understand what people enjoy about the current system? This item wouldn't break battling, and it would make breeding easier and more prevalent. The only "bad" affect would be good pokes are cheaper/easier to get. And even that could be controlled by how powerful you make the item.

[imguridiancity]

Breeding difficulty has been carefully balanced for a reason. It needs to be challenging, while still attainable, so that it's fun. In games, you have a player, an obstacle, and a reward. Individually, none of those elements are fun on their own. Fun is created when the player overcomes the obstacle to reach the reward. The harder the obstacle, the more fun it is when you overcome it. So, that obstacle needs to be as hard as possible, while still being reasonable to overcome. Right now it is.

 

I promise you, good pokemon are not expensive. You can get a perfectly reasonable comp untrained pokemon for 50k. That means using payday on a wild pokemon 100 times, which would take about an hour at most. So, if you want to get into battling, it will take you less than 6 hours to get a team of pokemon with decent IVs/nature. That's a pretty reasonable barrier to entry.

 

Now, if you want crazy high IVs (which will only make a difference in a battle 2% of the time) then that is more expensive and takes a lot more time. Which is a good thing. You shouldn't get the best pokemon after 6 hours of playing. That would be very bad, because then there's nothing left to do in the game. There always needs to be a higher goal for you to aspire to, or the game is over. MMOs don't have a game over, you're meant to never be finished playing.

 

If you still don't understand this, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. We're not having a debate with you, we're just trying to explain to you why the game is designed the way it is. It is entirely intentional, and not a mistake or oversight.

[Emlee]

I appreciate your patience, Imgurkid. I was lost at "I'm not such a big jerk that I'm going to abuse the system". 

 

@Op read his above post, and keep in mind that a discussion and harsh critique of your suggestion is not a critique of you as a person. 

[Marsus]

This is the only thing that makes me wish to play generation 6. The Destiny Knot.

 

Its a held item whose primary affect says, if the user becomes infatuated so does the opponents.

 

It's secondary affect however is particularly interesting. It raises the likelyhood of the parents passing on their IVs to the child.

 

An item like this would mean less time spent in breeding hell and more time spent battling in tournaments. It would also mean players battling in tournaments would be more likely to be the ones with the best strategies, rather than the ones that have been playing the longest/have the most money.

Haveing played longer doesn't make a big difference here actually. One thing was when breeding wasn't implemented, so us who got comps from back them have a lot of semi useless ones. Even when breeding came though it was so greatly nerfed that what you can now achieve in a day would take months before. (It sounds like a lot but I can honestly say that I don't feel like I'm exaggerating here).

[Pidgeysaurus]

This is DESTINED to KNOT be a good idea.

 

[spoiler]I'm knot even sorry for making that pun.[/spoiler]

[Jate]

Literally in x and y you can breed comps with 6 31 ivs and the best nature with essentialy no effort. This is a horrible idea as the market would be turned into shinys being the only thing of real value