[Denied] Display damage over death

[Flameql]

Hey :wub:

 

I thought it would be helpful to see how many HP a Pokemon loses over death, so your chat in battle looks like this

 

Wild PICHU appeared!

Go MAGIKARP!

FOE PICHU used HIDDEN POWER!

MAGIKARP fainted! (35 HP over death!)

 

Wild MAGIKARP appeared!

Go PICHU!

PICHU used HIDDEN POWER!

FOE MAGIKARP used SPLASH!

But nothing happened!

PICHU used HIDDEN POWER!

FOE MAGIKARP fainted! (35 HP over death!)

 

 

I know this can cause much trouble in tourneys ("LOL 1 HP over death LOL uguu") but especially for new players it can be really helpful to get a better feeling for the competitive play. I know there is a calculator where you can figure out what happened but it would be much easier to see this directly in the chat.

I never was a good comp player but after my >8 month break I'm totally lost. And there are always situations where I ask myself "wtf, how many dmg was that?".

 

[spoiler]I hope this was not suggested already :x[/spoiler]

[spoiler]and I hope I wrote it at least a bit understandable, it has been a long time since i wrote english :/[/spoiler]

 

So what do you think?

 

 

EDIT: changed the example, dmg over death should be only displayed for your own pokemon.

[flavajabari]

its a  good idea, but couldn't it be abused in tourneys?

 

edit: oh nevermind, you're only suggesting for over death damage to be displayed, not all.

so yea this would definitly be intresting

[Kiliminati]

This is a really cool suggestion! I agree that it could certainly help new players trying to improve at competitive play (mostly for those who don't use calcs in battle very often). While it could potentially make some players a bit mad if one of their Pokémon barely got knocked out, I think the positives far outweigh the possible negatives :)

[Rache]

There's a pretty big downside to this; it ruins unusual sets and allows the opponent to scout more than just moves. Essentially, gimmick sets will only have one chance to work successfully, and if it fails the first time it's tried, it will never, ever work against that player. It'll only have one chance in a tournament too due to friends/teammates scouting for EV spreads as well as moves. Let's say that for some reason, I'm running a defensive Pikachu and it gets Earthquaked by a banded Salamence.

Bold 252HP/Defense

Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. Pikachu: 256-302 (180.2 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

An ordinary hasty Pikachu (0 HP, 0 defense) would produce this calculation.

Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. Pikachu: 511-602 (464.5 - 547.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Seeing that the overkill wasn't what was expected, my opponent would know that my Pikachu isn't EVd normally. My gimmick failed in that battle since my Pikachu didn't get to successfully take a physical hit from... Whatever a defensive Pikachu can take a hit from. Now I can't use it against this player again in the hopes of it working, because he knows that it's an unusually trained Pokemon and he'll be prepared for it. The same goes for EVing attack/special attack/speed on a Pokemon that would normally be a full wall. If the player notices something off about the overkill damage, they'll figure out the gimmick and then be prepared for that Pokemon the next time we battle. This calculation can even apply to normally EVd Pokemon if there is more than one viable spread for it. An example of this would be figuring out whether an Umbreon is EVd in defense, special defense, or a bit of both. Unless players have multiple variants of each Pokemon with the same gender and nickname, they won't be able to hide anything at all from a player with a tendency to write things down.

[YagamiNoir]

Percentages are more effective rather than flat HP amounts.

EDIT: Well, over death it's a stupid idea, but personally if one is to learn about damage effectively, it would be in percentage instead of flat damage, since it's always been that way.

EDIT2: Unless it's been rejected before, wouldn't giving the percentage in damage of every attack be more effective like how Showdown displays it?

[Flameql]

There's a pretty big downside to this; it ruins unusual sets and allows the opponent to scout more than just moves. Essentially, gimmick sets will only have one chance to work successfully, and if it fails the first time it's tried, it will never, ever work against that player. It'll only have one chance in a tournament too due to friends/teammates scouting for EV spreads as well as moves. Let's say that for some reason, I'm running a defensive Pikachu and it gets Earthquaked by a banded Salamence.

Bold 252HP/Defense

Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. Pikachu: 256-302 (180.2 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

An ordinary hasty Pikachu (0 HP, 0 defense) would produce this calculation.

Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. Pikachu: 511-602 (464.5 - 547.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Seeing that the overkill wasn't what was expected, my opponent would know that my Pikachu isn't EVd normally. My gimmick failed in that battle since my Pikachu didn't get to successfully take a physical hit from... Whatever a defensive Pikachu can take a hit from. Now I can't use it against this player again in the hopes of it working, because he knows that it's an unusually trained Pokemon and he'll be prepared for it. The same goes for EVing attack/special attack/speed on a Pokemon that would normally be a full wall. If the player notices something off about the overkill damage, they'll figure out the gimmick and then be prepared for that Pokemon the next time we battle. This calculation can even apply to normally EVd Pokemon if there is more than one viable spread for it. An example of this would be figuring out whether an Umbreon is EVd in defense, special defense, or a bit of both. Unless players have multiple variants of each Pokemon with the same gender and nickname, they won't be able to hide anything at all from a player with a tendency to write things down.

 

Uhm, haven't thought about this, you're right :/ 

I believe in most cases ppl who have an unusual trained pokemon they have the standart version of it, too. In tourneys where you can't change your pokemon there should be an option to turn it off...

But yeah, even if you change your pokemon your opponent will know there is a chance you are using your unusual trained pokemon... so bad idea >_<

[Kiliminati]

There's a pretty big downside to this; it ruins unusual sets and allows the opponent to scout more than just moves. Essentially, gimmick sets will only have one chance to work successfully, and if it fails the first time it's tried, it will never, ever work against that player. It'll only have one chance in a tournament too due to friends/teammates scouting for EV spreads as well as moves. Let's say that for some reason, I'm running a defensive Pikachu and it gets Earthquaked by a banded Salamence.
Bold 252HP/Defense
Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. Pikachu: 256-302 (180.2 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
An ordinary hasty Pikachu (0 HP, 0 defense) would produce this calculation.
Choice Band Salamence Earthquake vs. Pikachu: 511-602 (464.5 - 547.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Seeing that the overkill wasn't what was expected, my opponent would know that my Pikachu isn't EVd normally. My gimmick failed in that battle since my Pikachu didn't get to successfully take a physical hit from... Whatever a defensive Pikachu can take a hit from. Now I can't use it against this player again in the hopes of it working, because he knows that it's an unusually trained Pokemon and he'll be prepared for it. The same goes for EVing attack/special attack/speed on a Pokemon that would normally be a full wall. If the player notices something off about the overkill damage, they'll figure out the gimmick and then be prepared for that Pokemon the next time we battle. This calculation can even apply to normally EVd Pokemon if there is more than one viable spread for it. An example of this would be figuring out whether an Umbreon is EVd in defense, special defense, or a bit of both. Unless players have multiple variants of each Pokemon with the same gender and nickname, they won't be able to hide anything at all from a player with a tendency to write things down.

If that's the case then the combat log damage over death information could simply be disabled for tournament mode only; this still allows new players to get a grasp of damage values using wild Pokémon encounters and the "Normal" battle mode.

[YagamiNoir]

If that's the case then the combat log damage over death information could simply be disabled for tournament mode only; this still allows new players to get a grasp of damage values using wild Pokémon encounters and the "Normal" battle mode.

You don't learn damage output competitively through wild Pokemon.

[Kiliminati]

You don't learn damage output competitively through wild Pokemon.

I'd have to disagree. While you don't directly get a feel for competitive damage output, wild pokemon encounters and NPC trainer/normal mode battles provide opportunities to increase not only your basic knowledge but also prediction skills regarding damage being dealt. In other words, non-tournament mode battles can still help to aid and condition newer players looking to get into competitive play by providing them differing situations to interpret how much damage they think their pokemon will do to another, and vice-versa. Again, these prediction skills will translate indirectly into competitive play, but the learning and knowledge gained through repetition is there nonetheless.

[ThinkNice]

I'd have to disagree. While you don't directly get a feel for competitive damage output, wild pokemon encounters and NPC trainer/normal mode battles provide opportunities to increase not only your basic knowledge but also prediction skills regarding damage being dealt. In other words, non-tournament mode battles can still help to aid and condition newer players looking to get into competitive play by providing them differing situations to interpret how much damage they think their pokemon will do to another, and vice-versa. Again, these prediction skills will translate indirectly into competitive play, but the learning and knowledge gained through repetition is there nonetheless.

It would be like the most ineffective way of learning damage output, as you have to relearn it all with the use of EVs and proper natures. I don't really see how this is going to help at all. Seems like a very ineffective way of learning.

[YagamiNoir]

I'd have to disagree. While you don't directly get a feel for competitive damage output, wild pokemon encounters and NPC trainer/normal mode battles provide opportunities to increase not only your basic knowledge but also prediction skills regarding damage being dealt. In other words, non-tournament mode battles can still help to aid and condition newer players looking to get into competitive play by providing them differing situations to interpret how much damage they think their pokemon will do to another, and vice-versa. Again, these prediction skills will translate indirectly into competitive play, but the learning and knowledge gained through repetition is there nonetheless.

Learning about damage output isn't effective on players that are not conscientious or on EV-less, possibly low IVed Pokemon. People would learn more effectively about damage even through the simplicity of theoretical damage calculations themselves moreso than damage through stuff that aren't on par to well, the standard of competitive Pokemon. Not as an insult, but the help given is ineffective and inefficient. You don't learn "oh a Tackle at level 15 OHKOes a level 2 Pidgey" and apply it in competitive Pokemon. 

 

Plus if the staff aren't so specific about in-game guides, having a feature such as this for the sake of "enabling learning of damage", which is applicable on only the more ignorant or newer people to the competitive community, isn't the best reason to add it. The way itself isn't effective. 

[Flameql]

Maybe it should only be displayed for your own pokemon? So you can't "see" your opponents EV spread. I think I have to change the example I made.

 

And I wouldn't say its comletely useless for learning competitive play. Its not to improve your advanced skills but maybe to give you a better feeling at the beginning...

[Kiliminati]

Maybe it should only be displayed for your own pokemon? So you can't "see" your opponents EV spread. I think I have to change the example I made.

And I wouldn't say its comletely useless for learning competitive play. Its not to improve your advanced skills but maybe to give you a better feeling at the beginning...

Precisely.

The objective here isn't to condition seasoned players on battle damage outputs by slaying level 2 pidgey with over-leveled pokemon. It would mostly help new players get a better feel for the game so when they did begin to play competitively, they will more easily be able to infer and remember certain damage calculations based off of what specific pokemon they are using and up against.

In short, it instills the most basic fundamentals for new players just starting out; it wouldn't be meant for veterans of competitive play.

(I'm typing all of this on my phone, sorry if it's hard to understand).

[Eggplant]

I find that this damage over death is difficult to interpret and won't really help, especially not someone who doesn't know what he's doing yet.

I find it'd be simpler to just display health bar and damage as a percentage, like showdown does.

[necund]

learn to do mental damage calcs. there are some very easy, hard and fast rules for lv50s battling and theyre not too hard on the thinker

[Darkshade]

As RacheLucario has pointed out; the implementation of a log that displays damage output that exceeds the maximum HP a Pokemon has the potential to display information that may give an advantage to the player responsible for that damage if you were to ever battle them again.

 

Whilst it could be argued that this will be the end result of participating in an battle against a player you have used a particular Pokemon against before, it's not something that should be pushed further by displaying exact numbers.

 

Percentages in general however are something that we have discussed briefly before, and might be a possibility in the future.