[Official] Tier Changes

[Senile]

I feel confident I could win a few rounds of Ou with a porygon, granted I don't get trapped by reversal dugtrio (conversion 2 porygon op)

And that's okay. If a pokemon is viable enough in OU that someone could cruise through several tournament rounds through it, there's no problem with it being used enough to be OU.

[BurntZebra]

And that's okay. If a pokemon is viable enough in OU that someone could cruise through several tournament rounds through it, there's no problem with it being used enough to be OU.

I know but winning with porygon in OU's sole purpose would be to get it out of UU

[OldKeith]

I know but winning with porygon in OU's sole purpose would be to get it out of UU

 

That would actually prove it is viable in OU, which is fine, because you wanted to prove that it is too strong for UU, but good enough for OU competitive usage.

[DrCraig]

I know but winning with porygon in OU's sole purpose would be to get it out of UU

 

That would actually prove it is viable in OU, which is fine, because you wanted to prove that it is too strong for UU, but good enough for OU competitive usage.

It would make more sense to say "Im going to enter every single tourney with no intent of doing good and use porygon just to put it there."

[BurntZebra]

It would make more sense to say "Im going to enter every single tourney with no intent of doing good and use porygon just to put it there."

but the argument is that the usage stats are swayed more when a person wins past the first round or wins multiple rounds with the said pokemon, using porygon and losing round 1 is a drop in the bucket of usage stats but winning a tournament with a porygon is a slightly larger drop in the bucket

[OldKeith]

The point is that if you intentionally enter OU tournaments to mess up with the usage stats (and the future UU tier) you will either:

-lose, cause the pokemon you are trying to remove from a UU tier is bad and is a minus for your team

-win, and actually help the usage stats by proving that the said pokemon is actually really good in OU

 

This is a win win for tiering, no matter how it goes.

[DoubleJ]

The point is that if you intentionally enter OU tournaments to mess up with the usage stats (and the future UU tier) you will either:

-lose, cause the pokemon you are trying to remove from a UU tier is bad and is a minus for your team

-win, and actually help the usage stats by proving that the said pokemon is actually really good in OU

 

This is a win win for tiering, no matter how it goes.

 

No matter what, there will still be a borderline banlist that will be established once the Usage Stats are settled for OU. If Porygon2 isn't above the usage cut-off, we can have a discussion about banning it to borderline then.

[BurntZebra]

The point is that if you intentionally enter OU tournaments to mess up with the usage stats (and the future UU tier) you will either:

-lose, cause the pokemon you are trying to remove from a UU tier is bad and is a minus for your team

-win, and actually help the usage stats by proving that the said pokemon is actually really good in OU

 

This is a win win for tiering, no matter how it goes.

I'm not disagreeing with you so I don't see why you're trying to prove me wrong

[OldKeith]

I'm not disagreeing with you so I don't see why you're trying to prove me wrong

 

Old habits.

[OrangeManiac]

Just wondering if it is gonna be any factor (and if it's not) that should it be a factor when drawing the cutoff point that the Pokemon was implemented in this update or not. The reason for this is that the new breeding is very hard and more time consuming and there definitely isn't time to raise them all. I can see people using a lot old Pokemon in officials just because they don't have the Hoenn Pokemon they would replace it, therefor kinda ruining the whole point of the usage stats or at least making the line be a bit of a hard to draw. Now the problem isn't that much "ZOMG WILL THERE BE SCEPTILE IN UU?" because yes, it can be just banned from there to be a BL Pokemon. My concern more is that will Pokemon that actually aren't that good be considered OU just because people haven't had time to replace that Pokemon in a specific role in their teambuild.

Edited January 24, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Senile]

Just wondering if it is gonna be any factor (and if it's not) that should it be a factor when drawing the cutoff point that the Pokemon was implemented in this update or not. The reason for this is that the new breeding is very hard and more time consuming and there definitely isn't time to raise them all. I can see people using a lot old Pokemon in officials just because they don't have the Hoenn Pokemon they would replace it, therefor kinda ruining the whole point of the usage stats or at least making the line be a bit of a hard to draw. Now the problem isn't that much "ZOMG WILL THERE BE SCEPTILE IN UU?" because yes, it can be just banned from there to be a BL Pokemon. My concern more is that will Pokemon that actually aren't that good be considered OU just because people haven't had time to replace that Pokemon in a specific role in their teambuild.

Something like this is why the usage gathered from the first month or two won't be final when making the lower tiers, usage will constantly be collected and analyzed, adjusting tiers accordingly. Obviously we won't change tiers as soon as we get new usage stats, but maybe on a bimonthly or monthly basis, but we'll have to figure that out when we get there.

[RyoOhsora]

Something like this is why the usage gathered from the first month or two won't be final when making the lower tiers, usage will constantly be collected and analyzed, adjusting tiers accordingly. Obviously we won't change tiers as soon as we get new usage stats, but maybe on a bimonthly or monthly basis, but we'll have to figure that out when we get there.

so.. we won't have a stabilized meta in the next 6 months? hmm.. what am i going to do because breeding isn't an option as long as we don't have a stabilized meta...
[spoiler] now that it takes so much resources i'm not going to waste it on something that might be banned [/spoiler]
 

[BurntZebra]

so.. we won't have a stabilized meta in the next 6 months? hmm.. what am i going to do because breeding isn't an option as long as we don't have a stabilized meta...
[spoiler] now that it takes so much resources i'm not going to waste it on something that might be banned [/spoiler]

Well you could breed the stuff that could be banned and win a tournament with it, although rip shiny prizes, Edited January 28, 2015 by BurntZebra

[DrCraig]

so.. we won't have a stabilized meta in the next 6 months? hmm.. what am i going to do because breeding isn't an option as long as we don't have a stabilized meta...
[spoiler] now that it takes so much resources i'm not going to waste it on something that might be banned [/spoiler]
 

Yep, you get 6 months to stop complaining and make an OU team of overpowered and broken pokemon.

Or you could complain for 6 months and accomplish nothing. Might as well embrace the new meta.

 

 

Well you could breed the stuff that could be banned and win a tournament with it, although rip shiny prizes,

[fredrichnietze]

so.. we won't have a stabilized meta in the next 6 months? hmm.. what am i going to do because breeding isn't an option as long as we don't have a stabilized meta...
[spoiler] now that it takes so much resources i'm not going to waste it on something that might be banned [/spoiler]
 

or you could read through the tier discussions and breed things there that a majority agree should not be banned and are useful.

[BurntZebra]

or you could read through the tier discussions and breed things there that a majority agree should not be banned and are useful.

did someone say walls? WALLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Dugzey]

how come mence be banned, but not dnite? Makes no sense for me. With its cb espeed madness, im asure that dnite is better than mence

[BurntZebra]

how come mence be banned, but not dnite? Makes no sense for me. With its cb espeed madness, im asure that dnite is better than mence 

 

intimidate+better speed are basically the 2 reasons

[DoubleJ]

how come mence be banned, but not dnite? Makes no sense for me. With its cb espeed madness, im asure that dnite is better than mence

 

intimidate+better speed are basically the 2 reasons

 

Intimidate allows Salamence to switch into a number of attacks without much negative drawbacks. Its higher base speed allows it to stay in against the majority of the meta and deliver two attacks which 2HKO a lot of the time as well.

 

Dragonite cannot switch in as easily without Intimidate, and is forced out by faster foes that switch in. This means it can't 2HKO as often as Salamence does. 

 

That diverse movepool that Dragonite has though is something to be concerned about, but up to this point hasn't qualified it for a ban. 

[Senile]

so.. we won't have a stabilized meta in the next 6 months? hmm.. what am i going to do because breeding isn't an option as long as we don't have a stabilized meta...
[spoiler] now that it takes so much resources i'm not going to waste it on something that might be banned [/spoiler]
 

I'm not sure if you realize this only applies to lower tiers, as they're the only ones affected by usage like this.

 

Beyond that, tiering through usage like this is something that (should) be happening for a loooong time, not just this update. It won't make the meta any more "unstable" than just regular tier changes do. 

 

tl;dr: no.

[RyoOhsora]

Well you could breed the stuff that could be banned and win a tournament with it, although rip shiny prizes,

and after that those pokemon specially the genderless ones are rotting in the box xD

let's be honest.. i don't care about the prizes at all when i join a tournament... for me its more important how far i can make it in a tournament. even tho i haven't joined any official tournament in a long time.
[spoiler] inofficial tournaments ftw xD [/spoiler]
 

Yep, you get 6 months to stop complaining and make an OU team of overpowered and broken pokemon.

Or you could complain for 6 months and accomplish nothing. Might as well embrace the new meta.

i'm not complaining at all... the thing is simply i don't want to invest time / money in a pokemon that might be banned because its a waste of time/money.

sure i could have fun with ... lets say for example metagross ... then it gets banned and is useless and you can't really sell uber pokemon unless they are a good breeding material.
(and yes metagross isn't a breeding material because i know its genderless its just an example.)
the ting is why waste time/money in a pokemon that might be banned?
 

or you could read through the tier discussions and breed things there that a majority agree should not be banned and are useful.

good idea i'll do that.

 

I'm not sure if you realize this only applies to lower tiers, as they're the only ones affected by usage like this.

 

Beyond that, tiering through usage like this is something that (should) be happening for a loooong time, not just this update. It won't make the meta any more "unstable" than just regular tier changes do. 

 

tl;dr: no.

we currently have no meta ( or a broken meta atm) the thing is as said before as long as i don't know which pokemon are going to be banned and which don't there is no point in breeding anything for ou.
specially metagross because it might be banned and if it gets banned it would only sit on the box for nothing. you can't sell it because its genderless ( no breeding material)

i know it takes time to get a meta done and i'm not complaining at all don't get me wrong there.

[janodiaz92]

What is happening?

Due to the Physical/Special split and the advent of Hoenn, all tiers will undergo massive changes, especially the lower (UU and NU) tiers. This change means that altering what pokemon go in the lower tiers through simply manual decisions is inadequate for obtaining accurate, balanced tiers. Because of this problem, the councils have determined to instead entirely scrap UU/NU in their current incarnations, and start purely with OU, allowing all pokemon not named Salamence or Wobbuffet. We will use this new OU tier as a basis for UU, and then the new UU as the basis for NU, through looking at usage stats.

 

How exactly will usage statistics be used?

 

The way it works is pretty simple. To start with, usage stats will be gathered from both Official OU tournaments and certain unofficial OU tournaments, which will occur more frequently than they did beforehand. Using these numbers, a cutoff point will be decided. Pokemon used less than the % cutoff will then go down to UU, and any pokemon above the % are considered OU. Any pokemon which are determined to be too powerful for UU but are below the cutoff point will be banned to the new "BL" tier. This isn't a playable tier, it's simply a limbo for pokemon too powerful for UU but not used enough to be considered OU. Likewise, the same will be done for NU, using UU usage to determine the NU pokemon and creating a BL2 for pokemon too powerful for NU to be placed in.

 

When will the lower tiers be reinstated?

 

UU will likely be created by around early March, whereas NU will have to be finished some indeterminate time after UU.

 

Will the lower tiers created at first be final?

 

No, they will not be final. As new usage statistics are gathered, tiers will alter based around them every few months.

 

Is Doubles okay?

Yes.

 

Are Borderline or Borderline 2 official formats?

No, they aren't really formats. Think of them simply as banlists for their respective tiers. Pokemon too good for a lower tier, but not used enough to actually be considered a part of the higher tier. You could play them, but they aren't really actual tiers.
 

Why is Salamence banned?

 

Salamence was tested on the PTS, and it seems to be in a fairly unanimously agreement that it is way too powerful. It can break anything but steel types through it's STAB, Dragon Claw, which it can easily deal with a simple coverage move or Magneton support. It can switch in fairly easily through decent stats and an excellent ability in Intimidate. Overall, Salamence seems to be the only pokemon with pretty much unanimous agreement that is far too strong, and as a result, it is the only pokemon which will be quickbanned.

YOU DONT KNOW SHIT, YOU'RE REALLY SENILE IF YOU THINK THAT A SALAMANCE CAN WIN TO MY STARMIE.
ANY POKEMON OF SPECIAL AND SPEED CAN RAPE THAT MOTHEFUCKER IN 1 HIT.

I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU'VE BANNED BATON PASS, ITS LIKE BANNING PROTECT ARE YOU STUPID?... IT'S THE ESSENCE OF DUELING... COME ON GO AND BAN SUBSTITUTE TOO ASHOLE.

[DrCraig]

YOU DONT KNOW SHIT, YOU'RE REALLY SENILE IF YOU THINK THAT A SALAMANCE CAN WIN TO MY STARMIE.
ANY POKEMON OF SPECIAL AND SPEED CAN RAPE THAT MOTHEFUCKER IN 1 HIT.

I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU'VE BANNED BATON PASS, ITS LIKE BANNING PROTECT ARE YOU STUPID?... IT'S THE ESSENCE OF DUELING... COME ON GO AND BAN SUBSTITUTE TOO ASHOLE.

[DestructX]

 

YOU DONT KNOW SHIT, YOU'RE REALLY SENILE IF YOU THINK THAT A SALAMANCE CAN WIN TO MY STARMIE.
ANY POKEMON OF SPECIAL AND SPEED CAN RAPE THAT MOTHEFUCKER IN 1 HIT.

I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU'VE BANNED BATON PASS, ITS LIKE BANNING PROTECT ARE YOU STUPID?... IT'S THE ESSENCE OF DUELING... COME ON GO AND BAN SUBSTITUTE TOO ASHOLE.

 

[Jate]

 

 

YOU DONT KNOW SHIT, YOU'RE REALLY SENILE IF YOU THINK THAT A SALAMANCE CAN WIN TO MY STARMIE.
ANY POKEMON OF SPECIAL AND SPEED CAN RAPE THAT MOTHEFUCKER IN 1 HIT.

I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU'VE BANNED BATON PASS, ITS LIKE BANNING PROTECT ARE YOU STUPID?... IT'S THE ESSENCE OF DUELING... COME ON GO AND BAN SUBSTITUTE TOO ASHOLE.