[Discussion] Reversal

[Excelimpulse]

So basically get rid of steels and hera can sweep pretty easily. Thanks riga for the calc.

[codylramey]

Ex something that you and everyone else is ignoring on this thread is all of this discussion doesnt matter. Even if you manage to prove that end rev heracross, gyarados, blazeken is OP you know whats gonna happen? All three of those pokes are going to get banned. Unless tiering policy has changed you are not going to get reversal banned.

[Shaniqualela]

What "pokes" are used to stop it that your saying? And on top of that now you can't go after killing heracross, of blaxijen for the risk of endure rev. And then if you predict wrong you get punched in the face.

and that argument where dnite all you have to do is let switch out is invalid. Once it does you have the mkmrntum and at that point in time there's a good chance dnite isn't coming in on something without getting hit hard.

Which is the same argument you just used.

being forced to use arcanine or linoin or whatever the hell it is is not competitive. Being forced to run quick attack is complete bs. And risking prediction you just used to stop the sakac boost or whatever is the same argument for dnite and the other two flammers.

endure rev competitive....I rofl literally a safety net before you die and then can possibly end the game instead of dieing.

being forced to centralize around arcanjne is okay????rofl

The only thing that really makes dnite leave are walls so you really don't gain any momentum...

[ThinkNice]

Ex something that you and everyone else is ignoring on this thread is all of this discussion doesnt matter. Even if you manage to prove that end rev heracross, gyarados, blazeken is OP you know whats gonna happen? All three of those pokes are going to get banned. Unless tiering policy has changed you are not going to get reversal banned.

That depends, if hypothetically Blaziken, Gyarados, Heracross and Medicham get banned because their Reversal set is too strong we could look at how many Pokémon you make unviable or viable by taking Reversal away from them. If you make less Pokémon unviable by taking Reversal than the number of bans you need you could argue for a ban on Reversal.

 

That being said it's just extremely preemptive to make a discussion about this already. Also the OP does not even give us anything to go to, only some hypothetical and angry gibberish. I would suggest fixing the OP or this thread will inevitably be locked, because it doesn't encourage actual discussion. Once you calmed down and can formulate a sentence without sounding like a butthurt child maybe we can take this thread more seriously.

 

To leave with you with some thoughts however;

 

There is no clear say in if Reversal is going to be broken. The notable Reversal users in OU will be Heracross, Blaziken and Medicham. The latter two absolutely need a +Spe boosting nature to be viable as Reversal users and Medicham does not get a boosting move like Swords Dance (Bulk Up is garbage on Reversal users). Also the fact that they can't run a +Atk nature will hurt their damage. Furthermore all of these Pokémon are perfectly wall-able, Heracross was a lot stronger in our last meta because the meta was very, very slow and Weezing wasn't that viable, neither was Arcanine (yes Arcanine is viable if you watch tournaments).

 

Reversal Heracross gets stopped cold by a few things: Skarmory, Gengar, Weezing and Defensive Arcanine. Defensive Arcanine got a lot more popularity because it's actually an excellent physical tank with Morning Sun and can take on the popular Metagross, Heracross and Blaziken. Reversal Heracross also needs Swords Dance period, so either you run Megahorn or an inferior coverage option like Earthquake.

 

+2 252+ Atk Heracross Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 115-136 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 123-144 (84.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Arcanine can switch in and Espeed obviously and Skarmory can phase his Sub attempts.

 

Also like I said Subbing is going to be pretty difficult with our more offensively orientated metagame, All of these options can pretty much take any other set on from Heracross as well, so it's not like these Pokémon are gimmicks in our metagame designed to stop Reversal Hera.

 

Then you have Medicham and Blaziken, the first thing to note is that they both get walled to death by our primary wall of peace; Slowbro. While Medicham also doesn't boast any impressive boosting moves, aka; Swords Dance. Blaziken has the advantage that it can deal with Skarmory and Weezing. Again if Blaziken does not run Swords Dance it is pretty much a shitty gimmick.

 

0 SpA Blaze Blaziken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 147-174 (85.4 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

If you need Overheat it only makes you more vulnerable and could also mean you can be potentially baited.

Even Snorlax can come in when you are at a high base HP, like 50% and Whirlwind you because Reversal won't do that much yet. Blaziken also gets walled by Roar Vaporeon/Swampert. Gyarados can come in on both of them and start getting free Dragon Dances, as long as Blaziken doesn't get two Swords Dances:

+1 252 Atk Blaziken Reversal (200 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 147-173 (81.2 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The primary thing about Blaziken and Medicham is that they both get walled hard by Slowbro/Arcanine which will still see a very high number of usage (well Arcanine less of course). A fair amount of teams could also carry Vaporeon, now that it doesn't get shit on by Dragonite. Medicham gets Fake Out hue, new meta. Taunt Gengar is a thing and Gengar has very high usage of its own.

 

The only things I can see being problematic is that Heracross proves to be to strong which could also lead to a Slowbro ban, but that's just all guess work and 'guess' what, we're not doing that.

[Robofiend]

Ex something that you and everyone else is ignoring on this thread is all of this discussion doesnt matter. Even if you manage to prove that end rev heracross, gyarados, blazeken is OP you know whats gonna happen? All three of those pokes are going to get banned. Unless tiering policy has changed you are not going to get reversal banned.

 

This is actually untrue, flat-banning moves, items and abilities is listed as a possibility in this thread. Banning Reversal would be similar to banning Baton Pass (with different arguments ofc). 

 

I'm tempted to say that if we had 3-5 Pokemon in OU that were extremely good at abusing Reversal that we'd have a good reason to consider banning just the move, assuming that the pokemon were otherwise not spooky. Dugtrio, Heracross, Blaziken and Gyarados are some of the best physical attackers in OU but as of now it seems hard to imagine that any of them will be Uber running non-reversal sets.

 

It's also possible that priority will become more viable in OU, lessening the effectiveness of end/rev strategies.

 

>why everyone's saying this thread is "preentive"

[RysPicz]

That being said it's just extremely preemptive

 

preemptive

YOU MADE IT

 

But honestly, I don't think it's the move, it's the poke. Flail is the same way imo, on Linoone (for now) it's not dangerous much, as Lino gets stopped cold by Ghost types. Same goes for Pinsir. Dodrio is quite frightening, but Gyara is definietly on top.

I don't see Reversal being broken on pokes like Primeape, Hitmonlee or Scyther, but I've been away from comp scene for a while so I'll just leave this here.

[spoiler]

 

preenptive. 

[/spoiler]

[Excelimpulse]

and what if you run magneton with the endure rev. Instant sweep. Same thing as mence. And tbh I would rather them ban all the endure rev pokes just to prove a point that the logic of ban chain isn't a theory. That is what happens especially when dnite was the gateway to it.

But I think endure rev is beyond cheap and has 0 skill behind it with sandstorm and arc as it's only checks. And paired with magneton and trio endure rev anything can instant sweep. Trio gets pursuit now so gg ghosts.

not banning this us delaying the inevitable. The only way it isn't an issue is with issue of fear. People won't breed because of the economy.

[Senile]

For those people worried about breeding Reversal pokemon who apparently exist, don't worry, Reversal won't get banned anytime soon if it does get banned at all, which seems kind of unlikely at this point.

 

(do I even have to mention that this thread is preemptive? It's been repeated so many times it should just be obvious by now)

[DoubleJ]

Preemptive. Preenptive.

[ThinkNice]

I was on my phone >:C

[TatsuyaSuo]

Just wanted to add Guts Heracross Vs Gengar:

 

+0 252Atk Guts Adamant Heracross Megahorn VS 0 def/hp gengar = 30.3% to 35.6% HP

 

+2 252Atk Guts Adamant Heracross Megahorn VS 0 def/hp gengar = 60.2% to 71.3% HP

 

It's not like you're forced to use some UU tactic or obscure pokemon, this is fucking gengar, one of the most common out there

Edited February 14, 2015 by TatsuyaSuo

[codylramey]

This is actually untrue, flat-banning moves, items and abilities is listed as a possibility in this thread. Banning Reversal would be similar to banning Baton Pass (with different arguments ofc). 

 

I'm tempted to say that if we had 3-5 Pokemon in OU that were extremely good at abusing Reversal that we'd have a good reason to consider banning just the move, assuming that the pokemon were otherwise not spooky. Dugtrio, Heracross, Blaziken and Gyarados are some of the best physical attackers in OU but as of now it seems hard to imagine that any of them will be Uber running non-reversal sets.

 

It's also possible that priority will become more viable in OU, lessening the effectiveness of end/rev strategies.

 

>why everyone's saying this thread is "preentive"

I dont see how this statement can possibly be true, what you and thinknice just said is inconsistant with what has been said in the past unless im mistaking or misread past statementsinthe past. I wont go onto where the inconsistancies lye bc it will derail this thread so im just gonna go with im wrong. And idm being wrong, looking at pokemom with reversal, discussing viablility, and banning based off from what bans the least viable pokes makes since to me, it just doesnt seem consistant with what has been done in the past. But wont we have to look at all tiers bc if you ban reversal in OU you have to ban it in all tiers.

[YagamiNoir]

I dont see how this statement can possibly be true, what you and thinknice just said is inconsistant with what has been said in the past unless im mistaking or misread past statementsinthe past. I wont go onto where the inconsistancies lye bc it will derail this thread so im just gonna go with im wrong. And idm being wrong, looking at pokemom with reversal, discussing viablility, and banning based off from what bans the least viable pokes makes since to me, it just doesnt seem consistant with what has been done in the past. But wont we have to look at all tiers bc if you ban reversal in OU you have to ban it in all tiers.

Robo's the only one that advocated for the Reversal ban as far as I'm concerned, unless I'm missing something that was stated, and I'm sure Senile was against it. Either way, a flat Reversal ban for the sake of keeping Heracross in the meta (and debatably Dugtrio is not as influential as Heracross with it) is stupid as it is. 

[codylramey]

Robo's the only one that advocated for the Reversal ban as far as I'm concerned, unless I'm missing something that was stated, and I'm sure Senile was against it. Either way, a flat Reversal ban for the sake of keeping Heracross in the meta (and debatably Dugtrio is not as influential as Heracross with it) is stupid as it is. 

u misunderstand the convo i am having with them. We are discussing tiering policy in reguards to flat banning moves. 

[Gunthug]

I dont see how this statement can possibly be true, what you and thinknice just said is inconsistant with what has been said in the past unless im mistaking or misread past statementsinthe past. I wont go onto where the inconsistancies lye bc it will derail this thread so im just gonna go with im wrong. And idm being wrong, looking at pokemom with reversal, discussing viablility, and banning based off from what bans the least viable pokes makes since to me, it just doesnt seem consistant with what has been done in the past. But wont we have to look at all tiers bc if you ban reversal in OU you have to ban it in all tiers.

What other tiers?

[lVlusay]

The advantage of banning reversal is that we won't need to ban pokemons that are using it, as it was done before.

[Robofiend]

unless im mistaking or misread past statements

 

Yeah, you are missing the point (it's a fine one). Senile/Think opposed Reversal ban because it was just 2 pokes who were really good at abusing it. They did recognize that move bans are a possibility but both believed that in that case a move ban wasn't warranted. If we had 5 pokemon doing that (like Thinkie said above) then it might be a different story.  

[Excelimpulse]

So reversal isn't an issue on 2-3 pokes but dclaw is an issue on dnite which got banned. Perfect sense. what a joke

Edited February 14, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DrCraig]

So reversal isn't an issue on 2-3 pokes but dclaw is an issue on dnite which got banned. Perfect sense. what a joke

DRAGONITE DIDNT ONLY GET BANNED FOR DRAGON CLAW. READ THE THREAD AND COME BACK WITH SOME EVIDENCE. NOTHING EVEN GOT BANNED FOR REVERSAL YET. NOBODY WANTS YOUR SASS.

[Robofiend]

So reversal isn't an issue on 2-3 pokes but dclaw is an issue on dnite which got banned. Perfect sense. what a joke

 

Dat off topic.

[RysPicz]

The advantage of banning reversal is that we won't need to ban pokemons that are using it, as it was done before.

Hmm hard to say. Heracross' most often seen set (at least for me) is currently SD + 3 attacks or pure CB, Heracross is good regardless of the fact of Reversal. Same goes for Dugtrio- CB Set for revenge killing is as threatening as the Reversal one, made for killing our favourite special walls. Both sets are equally good, but designed for diffrent team purposes (while CB is generally made for supportive role of revenge killing and fits many teams, reversal one is almost solely built under special teams that benefit from taking a spec wall out). Though Dugtrio isn't the best example as it's not as viable as it was before that update. Once Gyara and Slowbro will get the boot (it's preenptive to say it but hey, you never know), only Blaziken is prob going to be the second banworthy Reversal user, although it's SD and CB sets are as viable as the reversal one. Yet, there will be an insane amount of pokes on which Reversal is not broken (few examples; Medicham, Raticate, WEELEE, Primerape, Scyther) and I don't think that banning the move itself is a solution for a healthier meta.

Edited February 14, 2015 by RysPicz

[codylramey]

Hmm hard to say. Heracross' most often seen set (at least for me) is currently SD + 3 attacks or pure CB, Heracross is good regardless of the fact of Reversal. Same goes for Dugtrio- CB Set for revenge killing is as threatening as the Reversal one, made for killing our favourite special walls. Both sets are equally good, but designed for diffrent team purposes (while CB is generally made for supportive role of revenge killing and fits many teams, reversal one is almost solely built under special teams that benefit from taking a spec wall out). Though Dugtrio isn't the best example as it's not as viable as it was before that update. Once Gyara and Slowbro will get the boot (it's preenptive to say it but hey, you never know), only Blaziken is prob going to be the second banworthy Reversal user, although it's SD and CB sets are as viable as the reversal one. Yet, there will be an insane amount of pokes on which Reversal is not broken (few examples; Medicham, Raticate, WEELEE, Primerape, Scyther) and I don't think that banning the move itself is a solution for a healthier meta.

This is where viability comes into the discussion. Which is kind of a subjective topic Some may say that medacham is viable with the reversal set while some say hes too slow and no set up moves makes him no good.

[Excelimpulse]

DRAGONITE DIDNT ONLY GET BANNED FOR DRAGON CLAW. READ THE THREAD AND COME BACK WITH SOME EVIDENCE. NOTHING EVEN GOT BANNED FOR REVERSAL YET. NOBODY WANTS YOUR SASS.

oh really because that's the only thing that changed....dclaw went physical.

I'm a noob but endure reversal is competitive Without its checks????I'm confused because all you need to do is click endure rev then. All your calculations to me are worthless. stats dont show how a game is really played and usually irrelevant. Because when your taking sweepers into account there's a good chance the pokes they are hitting are already weakened a little.

Hate me all you want but spamming endure rev mid game when you can set up is less competitive then spamming dckaw and having it get checked and forced out.

Oh forgot dnite to centralized but the fat blobs never get banned either... Edited February 14, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[codylramey]

oh really because that's the only thing that changed....dclaw went physical.

I'm a noob but endure reversal is competitive Without its checks????I'm confused because all you need to do is click endure rev then. All your calculations to me are worthless. stats dont show how a game is really played and usually irrelevant. Because when your taking sweepers into account there's a good chance the pokes they are hitting are already weakened a little.

Hate me all you want but spamming endure rev mid game when you can set up is less competitive then spamming dckaw and having it get checked and forced out.

You dont know how setting up a reversal poke works do you?

[Excelimpulse]

You dont know how setting up a reversal poke works do you?

Click endure click reversal when ghosts are gone. make sure spikes are gone.