[UU Discussion] Chansey [Banned to BL]

[Senile]

I might be wrong about this, but I believe FABROoo (the winner of the last UU tournament) never used chansey in his team - at least from what I have seen. I don't think usage should be a factor that determines wheter or not chansey should be ban. I would be more interesting in seeing the win rate of chansey teams versus non chansey teams.

Seeing winrates of chansey teams vs non chansey teams is meaningless. If everyone is using Chansey except for 1 guy who won a round without a chansey on his team, then Chansey teams would have a slightly below 50% winrate and non-Chansey would have 100%. Why? Because since everyone's running Chansey, everyone's fighting other people with Chanseys, and only 1 person can win a match, meaning that the winrate will inevitably equalize at around 50%. However, all it takes is a few wins or a few losses for the minority (non-Chansey teams) for them to heavily skew to ridiculous win ratios, either near 0% (completely unrealistic) or near 100% (equally absurd).

[DrCraig]

I might be wrong about this, but I believe FABROoo (the winner of the last UU tournament) never used chansey in his team - at least from what I have seen. I don't think usage should be a factor that determines wheter or not chansey should be ban. I would be more interesting in seeing the win rate of chansey teams versus non chansey teams.

As everybody has said before on multiple occasion, usage doesn't warrant bans alone.

[BurntZebra]

I might be wrong about this, but I believe FABROoo (the winner of the last UU tournament) never used chansey in his team - at least from what I have seen. I don't think usage should be a factor that determines wheter or not chansey should be ban. I would be more interesting in seeing the win rate of chansey teams versus non chansey teams.

Then again, he didn't play a semifinals match and won via dc in the finals. And as others have already said, usage of a pokemon, or lack of usage of a pokemon by a single player doesn't really matter much. 

[fredrichnietze]

Alright so did the UU council have any thoughts on their tier or just the other councils?

i made one post. right now im reading everything and thinking. this is actually the second thread. the point of this thread is for the uu council to get a idea of what the community thinks and hear input.

further more you and everyone else is welcome to contact me in game, via profile feed, or team speak and tell me what you think. preferably not pm since keeping my inbox below 100% is not easy but you can do that too.

[DrCraig]

i made one post. right now im reading everything and thinking. this is actually the second thread. the point of this thread is for the uu council to get a idea of what the community thinks and hear input.
further more you and everyone else is welcome to contact me in game, via profile feed, or team speak and tell me what you think. preferably not pm since keeping my inbox below 100% is not easy but you can do that too.

Yea, I don't want to be a hard ass about it, but since the council makes the decisions it's nice when we can discuss with you guys. It's nice to actually see our input have some sort of effect.

[gbwead]

However, all it takes is a few wins or a few losses for the minority (non-Chansey teams) for them to heavily skew to ridiculous win ratios, either near 0% (completely unrealistic) or near 100% (equally absurd).

I am trying to say that if chansey really does fit the uber defensive characteristic, the players with chansey will most certainly win against the ones not playing chansey. The win rate would show that. However, when you say "all it takes is a few wins or a few losses", this is only true right now because we do not have much data on this pseudo-new meta (ridiculous stats | only when there is a ridiculously small sample). Eventually, it should be clear whether or not Chansey's team have an advantage.

 

Edit: Uber supportive characteristic?

Edited July 6, 2015 by lamerb

[Artemiseta]

I need the usage statistics unfortunately I had real life stuff all weekend and only was able to see Ariadne last move in the semis and up until his dc as Fred said there is another thread where we are discussing it. Ill comment more here once I get usage.
And uber support would where it falls best as it effectively stops most if not all special attackers and as demonstrated yesterday before the dq was able to ate stab cb non super effective move and proceed to heal. This is different from old UU where plume was able to do this as plume did die to se special attacks. On mobile won't be home for 8ish hours May comment more then

[Barrage]

From what I saw yesterday, this issue is very much due in part to team building. We have many offensive threats like kabutops, flareon, crawdaunt, and granbull that don't see much usage and can all break chansey as well as popular defensive cores like plumelix. Hitmonlee is one of the most used pokemon and while stopped by slowking, he also easily slays chansey, steelix, and vileplume with enough time. It's "easy" and comfortable to use slower pokemon and build a team with a safe switch and hard to play a skillful aggro game effectively, which is why especially in later rounds we see drawn out matches with chansey. It's because the teams that make it far don't have the makings to beat chansey when played properly. But that is not the tier, it's the approach of the players to the tier. IMO people just need to learn to win with more aggressive teams. Otherwise you can expect to keep losing to an even moderately wellplayed chansey, and I mean this with no offense intended. It is simply the reality as I see it.

[gbwead]

But that is not the tier, it's the approach of the players to the tier. IMO people just need to learn to win with more aggressive teams.

I love this.

[PandaJJ]

It is simply the reality as I see it.

 

The way I see it, all the things you mentioned are either useless without choice band (which loses because of protect + switching to counter), too frail to switch in more than 3-4 times against seismic toss, or both. I'm not saying your reality is wrong, but we're not both right.

[KingBowser]

And Chansey is passing wishes to the counters of your threat.

[Barrage]

The way I see it, all the things you mentioned are either useless without choice band (which loses because of protect + switching to counter), too frail to switch in more than 3-4 times against seismic toss, or both. I'm not saying your reality is wrong, but we're not both right.

I'd also like to point out that kabutops, crawdaunt and also zangoose can learn swords dance, so cb sets aren't the only option. SD from those on a protect can be devastating.

[OldKeith]

I'd also like to point out that kabutops, crawdaunt and also zangoose can learn swords dance, so cb sets aren't the only option. SD from those on a protect can be devastating.

 

Before protecting on a pokemon with setup moves, especially something as dangerous as swords dance or dragon dance, an experienced player will scout for the item by sending in the counter. Sure, chansey may be a setup bait for them, but that does not mean they cannot be stopped by others. The problem that they cannot really come in on a Chansey's Seismic Toss remains the main issue.

[Senile]

I'd also like to point out that kabutops, crawdaunt and also zangoose can learn swords dance, so cb sets aren't the only option. SD from those on a protect can be devastating.

Except for the fact that Kabutops and Zangoose are both NU, and for good reason. Whether or not you think they're good, the fact of the matter is they're pokemon which are never actually used in UU, and unfortunately, "everyone else is wrong" isn't a good explanation for why they aren't used. They're just not that good. And if you're resorting to running an NU pokemon with SD baiting your opponent into thinking you're running CB to deal with something, that's not a very good situation, especially since, y'know, they can scout for SD, and these pokemon still can't come in safely.

 

Crawdaunt just isn't a good Swords Dancer. The only reason you would run SD on that thing, as far as I can tell, is literally this exact situation you're talking about. It's slow, not very bulky, and has a large amount of weaknesses, and if you really want a setup move, it gets DD, which at least helps patch up it's poopy speed. Stop trying to make up imaginary sets or bring up irrelevant pokemon just to deal with a ridiculously common and powerful UU threat, going through these mental gymnastics of using shitty sets/pokemon to try and maybe deal with something (and not even reliably deal with it, just running a gimmicky thing to try and outplay your opponent who doesn't expect it) doesn't justify Chansey, if anything, it shows just how ridiculously far out into left field your thinking has to go to even conceive of a potential answer.

[Barrage]

Except for the fact that Kabutops and Zangoose are both NU, and for good reason. Whether or not you think they're good, the fact of the matter is they're pokemon which are never actually used in UU, and unfortunately, "everyone else is wrong" isn't a good explanation for why they aren't used. They're just not that good. And if you're resorting to running an NU pokemon with SD baiting your opponent into thinking you're running CB to deal with something, that's not a very good situation, especially since, y'know, they can scout for SD, and these pokemon still can't come in safely.

Crawdaunt just isn't a good Swords Dancer. The only reason you would run SD on that thing, as far as I can tell, is literally this exact situation you're talking about. It's slow, not very bulky, and has a large amount of weaknesses, and if you really want a setup move, it gets DD, which at least helps patch up it's poopy speed. Stop trying to make up imaginary sets or bring up irrelevant pokemon just to deal with a ridiculously common and powerful UU threat, going through these mental gymnastics of using shitty sets/pokemon to try and maybe deal with something (and not even reliably deal with it, just running a gimmicky thing to try and outplay your opponent who doesn't expect it) doesn't justify Chansey, if anything, it shows just how ridiculously far out into left field your thinking has to go to even conceive of a potential answer.

? And you all wonder why your metagame is stagnant. I disagree with you wholeheartedly that these pokemon are "poopy". And yes, you would run SD for that exact situation. Apparently it happens a lot. So wouldn't it be worth it?

Edited July 6, 2015 by Barrage

[DrCraig]

Just wrote so much on JJ's thread and... Jim just destroyed it.

Well so like I don't want to type it again but I was going to say that I would have rather seen Chansey be addressed before. I think if Chansey had been removed last month we would've seen variety that paralleled what the current OU tier looks like and had the variety UU used to have. But I mean shit, that's not going to happen so we are confronted with all these BLs. I think the threats right now take away from the wiggle room in team building, by encouraging players who already run walls for their safe switches, to run more walls. Chansey, Zard and Zam in particular warrant specific safe counters which a majority of the player base is scared to stray away from. I would like to see what happens if Chansey was removed. Yea, Umbreon will replace it I bet, but it will be a step towards the right directions. Ultimately the meta needs to take away from stall until players get an incentive to run offense. Players just feel safer with walls and they see everybody else do it so they genuinely are scared to try new styles. I feel like I'm just rambling but ultimately I think the BL moves were a mistake, and some of these threats, especially Chansey, need to be removed in order to dissuade players from running overly specific counters, yea threats will always be there but...gotta try and do something dood

Edited July 7, 2015 by DrCraig

[Robofiend]

I don't think anyone can really say "Chansey belongs in UU" and mean it. It completely walls any special attacker in the tier and with Wish, Protect, Toxic and Seismic Toss, it can chip away at counters while providing the best support available for its teammates. It's either defensively or support "Uber" nearly by definition, and to me it seems pretty obvious that it's making offense (and balance to some extent) nearly impossible to run.

 

It's inordinately good at being a wall and it covers its weaknesses like a boss. Sure, you could use Zangoose to beat it, but no one *does* use Zangoose, presumably because it has faults that keep it from being effective. Similarly, you could use Belly Drum Azu or Magmar, but if you take Toxic you're going to have to switch out and Aroma before attempting the sweep again. If you take 2 Seismic Tosses to the face with either, you're going to be in a bad place, especially with Belly Drum taking half of your health. The bottom line is that UU lacks options to effectively take Chansey out or punish it for the free turns it provides, and the few things that are good at dealing with it are bad at damaging other threats in the tier.

 

In other words, pretty much everything that can beat Chansey isn't good outside of that purpose, or fails to beat it because it can just continually Wish/Protect and keep other teammates alive, making otherwise breakable walls pratically impossible to beat. Remember the (short) discussion about Tyranitar in OU? The reason we kept it banned post update is because you could use Hitmontop, Breloom or some other fighting type to beat it, but that pokemon would essentially be dead weight against the rest of the metagame. The same logic fits Chansey pretty well.

 

Given that almost everyone thinks we should ban it.. why haven't we banned it yet?

[gbwead]

Chansey, being a uber support of the tier, comes with the flaw of being a huge set up bait. Even though many people here already covered the issues with setting up against Chansey, I feel that the spike set up have been forgotten. Omastar (mainly) but also others can easily set up spikes, and since Chansey rely a lot on safe switchs options, spike damage can be a real problem. Tentacruel and Claydol might be good spinners, but they are really bad in the current meta.

 

On a more positive note, if Chansey does get ban, at least we will get another 2nd price reward for the Summer Ball XD

[Robofiend]

Chansey, being a uber support of the tier, comes with the flaw of being a huge set up bait. Even though many people here already covered the issues with setting up against Chansey, I feel that the spike set up have been forgotten. Omastar (mainly) but also others can easily set up spikes, and since Chansey rely a lot on safe switchs options, spike damage can be a real problem. Tentacruel and Claydol might be good spinners, but they are really bad in the current meta.

 

On a more positive note, if Chansey does get ban, at least we will get another 2nd price reward for the Summer Ball XD

 

I think I just covered almost all of the "setup bait" points in my post. The only think that really works against Chansey is Scizor, who (with Spikes Support) can SD and proceed to sweep walls out of the way. But, again, Spikes often work against Chansey checks, all of whom are grounded and most of whom lack recovery. Basically "keep it in UU because Spikes" fails to account for the fact that Chansey with Spikes is a hell of a lot better than Chansey without - 3 Spikes+ST does more than 50% to most of the grounded pokemon in the tier. Wish also protects teammates from passive spikes damage way better than running lots of Flying types, or relying on a Spinner, most of whom are really weak and can't do anything to the tier's best walls.

[Noad]

The UU tier Council have decided to test ban Chansey for the duration of 6 Official UnderUsed tournaments.
Chansey is being suspect banned as it has been deemed unhealthy for the current state of the tier.
A Pokemon which is 'unhealthy' is one that heavily stagnates or centralizes the UnderUsed metagame.
Chansey is capable of many things, these include:
- The ability to wall every most Special Attacker within the UnderUsed tier.
- The ability eat through Physical Attackers via Toxic stall and Protect.
- Through a combination of Wish and Aromatherapy or Heal Bell is able to keep its teammates healthy and protected from status effects.
- Limiting the ability to build a team without needing to take Chansey into account.

 

After the 6 tournaments are over, a final decision will be made on Chansey's place in the UU tier. 

[Gunthug]

hey I think the test is a great idea. That being said, those traits sound a lot more like uber defensive/support than unhealthy - isn't it's usage around 30%? Probably not worth arguing over, though. Let's see how long it takes for UU to improve - I think we'll notice a positive change almost immediately

[DoubleJ]

Ya, I'm pretty sure Chansey fits the criteria for two uber characteristics, Support and Defense. Nevertheless, with the amount of community support for an outright flat ban and the council pretty much in agreement throughout discussion, I'm really taken back by the need for a test ban. Why didn't we just ban it outright and not prolong the inevitable?

[Noad]

Ya, I'm pretty sure Chansey fits the criteria for two uber characteristics, Support and Defense. Nevertheless, with the amount of community support for an outright flat ban and the council pretty much in agreement throughout discussion, I'm really taken back by the need for a test ban. Why didn't we just ban it outright and not prolong the inevitable?

 

If Chansey needs to be banned then it will be banned permanently after 6 tournaments, the test part does not affect the outcome but allows for everyone to be entirely sure that the right decision is being made. 

[DoubleJ]

If Chansey needs to be banned then it will be banned permanently after 6 tournaments, the test part does not affect the outcome but allows for everyone to be entirely sure that the right decision is being made. 

 

But who did we need to convince?

[PandaJJ]

If Chansey needs to be banned then it will be banned permanently after 6 tournaments, the test part does not affect the outcome but allows for everyone to be entirely sure that the right decision is being made. 

This is flawed, because for all we know, the meta might be better with chansey than without, despite it being banworthy. For example, there might be new things (alakazam?) that will make the meta even worse by simply banning chnasey. If everybody agrees in theory, then there is no reason to test it in practice. Those results will likely not be of any value.

 

Anyways, I'm happy to see this being tested.