Tyrone Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) In reaction to: DrCraig, Forfiter and JJ's post in Request thread, I've taken DrCraig's old Discussion post and edited a bit. Common Sets Include: Cleric Chansey Item: Leftovers Nature: Bold EVs: 252HP 252DEF -Softboil -Aromatherapy -Seismic Toss / Counter -Toxic / Counter Wish Support Chansey Cleric Fat uguu Item: Leftovers Nature: Bold EVs: 252HP 252DEF -Wish -Protect -Seismic Toss / Counter -Toxic / Counter Too Poor To Afford Wish Chansey Item: Leftovers Nature: Bold EVs: 252HP 252DEF -Softboil -Protect -Seismic Toss / Counter -Toxic / Counter **Other sets can include Defense Curl or Growl to not get trapped by Trapinch and Diglett. Mostly lame ass gimmicks. Chansey is a fat blob that walls a lot. Chansey hardcounters most special attackers but has lesser physical bulk compared to other special walls in the tier. Abusing protect and Wish, choice banders won't be able to touch it or the incoming switch. Although it walls everything it has little offense pressure, but enough to cripple opponents and support the team. Basic Criteria for being Unhealthy: Is it too good not to use? Does it limit teambuilding? Does it force the metagame to stagnate, resulting in an unevolving metagame Does it's presence alone make certain archetypes/playstyles non-viable? So, is Chansey currently unhealthy for the UU metagame? Do you think the metagame can evolve to a situation where Chansey is less centralizing? Some thoughts from Council Members: [spoiler] In the current UU meta and with the pokemon that Chansey surrounds itself with, it becomes much harder to break Chansey. Let me address the pokemon you made one by one: 1) Kangaskhan can indeed be a big threat behind a sub but it can't switch in on a toxic. However, it is very viable and can dmg almost everything chansey surrounds itself with, allowing the Chansey user to feel that using it can be a liability. 2) With Scizor+Umbreon atm, Misdreavus won't get to shine that much even it sets up calm minds. 3) Vile can force it out indeed but there are hardly any leech seed vileplumes out there, and aroma/synthesis/sludge/giga is the standard set, so you will be giving up something important for it. I guess you can sack synth for leech, but at crucial times, synth could be more useful since leech can miss also. 4) Breloom doesn't sound that viable to me atm. I could be wrong but with vile+slowking around, it'll need a lot of support to break through that core. Once it is able to do that, it can easily break through a stall team. 5) Tentacruel can SD on the switch in but losing sludgebomb as one of its physical moves hurts it since slowking can come in and psychic it out. But yeah I can say it's quite viable atm. 6) Wynaut, as you said, is far fetched. But it works. 7) Diglett/Trapinch work as well. Trapinch is the better option though because of the guaranteed kill. 8) With Scizor back again, it's back to being the best and most safest option to switch into a Chansey. 9) The moment Umbreon switches in, definitely the Chansey user won't stay in and instead they'll go to Scizor or something else that can take advantage of Umbreon. It can't switch in on toxic either. As Artemiseta mentioned, there's gonna be a defensive core of scizor/vile/slowking/chansey and the first step towards breaking this core is to take out Chansey and that is with the help of a trapper. If either of the other three (Scizor, Vile, Slowking) faints, that core can still be effective. Keith, have you tried breaking stall teams post split UU by using some of the other pokemon you've mentioned, bar trapinch/diglett? It's very hard and requires hard core scouting, so that you can find the right wall breaker. Eitherways, seems like this is the UU Council's decision. For one, I think it'd be more beneficial if a discussion thread was created in Comp Alley to get the input of the community as well because they've been the ones asking for a ban (DoubleJ, Forfiter). I think the problem with Subdrum is that Twave/Toxic is so good on Chansey to begin with, and either will ruin that sweep (especially with Spikes damage). Hitmonlee would a fine check, except for its need to run CB and Chansey's ability to 3-shot it with Seismic Toss - apart from that, the tier has relatively few Physical attackers that can take status, repeated Seismic Tosses or status (RIP Machamp, RIP Miltank), making Chansey surprisingly threatening. While Toxic/Seismic Toss is relatively useless against stall, it stops almost every offensive pokemon in the tier from working effectively without lots of cleric support. If we're discussing Chansey under the pretense of it being defensive, however, it's best to focus on the fact that it basically can't be taken down by anything, rather than its (relatively weak) offense. One of the biggest problems with Chansey, as others have pointed out, is that there are only a couple of ways to surely beat it: 1) CB Superpower - if for some reason Chansey decides to stay in, it's lights out. However, with Protect and ubiquitous fighting resists like Vileplume and Slowking, this strategy really only works late game. The usual scenario for the choice bander is to switch in a status move or Seismic Toss, get Protect scouted and then get walled the next turn. While this is a good opportunity for a special attacker to switch in (usually), Chansey displays the same problem that Blissey does in OU - it's impossible for special sweepers to take down (unlike Umbreon, for instance). 2) Swords Dance/Bulk Up - Scizor and Immunity Zangoose do a good job of abusing Toxic sets (especially with Morning Sun) but that's about it. Hitmonlee gets 3-shotted, so even with a free swap in against Twave it's not going to have a lot of longevity, especially if it takes Toxic or too many switch-in attacks (not to mention that Hitmonlee often needs a CB in UU to break through all these walls). In either case, there's a good chance you're going to get status'd, making wall switch ins easier and future set-ups even harder to pull off (without cleric support). CM Misdreavus also falls into this category, but will again find itself pretty useless if statused, not to mention that walls like Umbreon quickly check it. However, one thing that isn't being considered is Trapinch, who can quickly switch in and break Chansey, allowing other pokemon a better chance to sweep. Part of the problem is that Trapinch is rarely used, and even if it was it'd pretty much exist solely to kill Chansey, as its awful defenses make it less than useful even against Umbreon, who can survive a Superpower and Wish itself back to full health. So in light of all that, we have a pokemon that's pretty good against sweepers of all sorts and doesn't have a lot of natural checks, basically allowing it to fit on any team without real setbacks, so long as the rest of the team can manage hits from its counters while they slowly get worn down by status or Seismic Toss. I'm not really sure what development there *could* be in UU to stop Chansey from being so good, but if there seems to be a possibility for some of the weirder sets (Subdrum Walrein/Azu, in particular) or Trapinch to actually be effective on teams, then it might be worth it to let Chansey stay, despite seeming hard to check right now. [/spoiler] Edited July 3, 2015 by LeTyrone Added Council member's thoughts felix, Arimanius and dedegendut 3 Link to comment
Artemiseta Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Thanks Tyrone I just got up you made one less thing on my to do list. You may want to add nik's quote about some potential answers and the meta overall Tyrone 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Of all the far fetched solutions the council members ran through, muk didn't come up once? I know it's just one poke and it's technically Nu but man, chansey is destroyed by sub punch muk, and nothing really likes coming in on a muk behind a sub. Even slowking runs the risk of tpunch or even explosion. Also, didn't we come across this problem with vile plume in the old UU? A poke isn't deemed ban worthy just because it fits into a very strong core. Just food for thought, I'm in the fence about this one and I'm glad we've got a thread to discuss it now Arimanius, DaftCoolio, JonazDK and 2 others 5 Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 If Chansey gets ban, who do we have to counter Zam? Scizor? Umbreon? Steelix? I am not really convinced by those :( HP fire for Scizor and Steelix Signal Beam for Umbreon I guess Atlaria and Lapras could somehow be used as replacements, but even then I am not convinced we can ban Chansey by himself. His absence would leave room to scary stuff. Link to comment
DestructX Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) sunny beam charizard set would be too strong without chansey for sure and umbreon cant even break its substitute Edited July 2, 2015 by DestructX gbwead and Fabbroo 2 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 fellas, let's remember that we shouldn't keep a broken pokemon in a tier just to keep other potentially broken mons in check. If zam and zard get banned without chansey, so be it, but if chansey is broken/unhealthy it needs to go regardless of the consequences Robofiend, Arimanius, OrangeManiac and 2 others 5 Link to comment
DestructX Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 im not understanding how something that's just set up bait for half the tier could possibly be "broken" not to mention we have stuff like sub azumarill, morning sun scizor, kangaskhan, trapinch, diglett, wynaut, sub cm misdreavus JonazDK and gbwead 2 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Of all the far fetched solutions the council members ran through, muk didn't come up once? I know it's just one poke and it's technically Nu but man, chansey is destroyed by sub punch muk, and nothing really likes coming in on a muk behind a sub. Even slowking runs the risk of tpunch or even explosion. Also, didn't we come across this problem with vile plume in the old UU? A poke isn't deemed ban worthy just because it fits into a very strong core. Just food for thought, I'm in the fence about this one and I'm glad we've got a thread to discuss it now actually i brought up muk, aggron, nidoqueen, and a few other nu's. but the reason they are nu is because no one uses them in uu. and what gun said. if chansey has to go it'll go regardless of consequences. we'll cope with the problems that arise. chansey isnt uber offensive, chansey isnt uber defensive. it's close but it isnt. is chansey uber support? maybe, but others can do everything it can support wise. chansey does do it a bit better then most. the big question is, is chansey unheathy for the meta game? Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 im not understanding how something that's just set up bait for half the tier could possibly be "broken" not to mention we have stuff like sub azumarill, morning sun scizor, kangaskhan, trapinch, diglett, wynaut, sub cm misdreavus Zangoose and Haunter do extremely well against Chansey too. DestructX 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 im not understanding how something that's just set up bait for half the tier could possibly be "broken" not to mention we have stuff like sub azumarill, morning sun scizor, kangaskhan, trapinch, diglett, wynaut, sub cm misdreavus, muk ftfy lel and I'm not saying it's broken, in fact right now I would probably say not banworthy DestructX and gbwead 2 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Also, didn't we come across this problem with vile plume in the old UU? A poke isn't deemed ban worthy just because it fits into a very strong core. Just food for thought, I'm in the fence about this one and I'm glad we've got a thread to discuss it now Nah this isn't just about a core gunthug, just an addition of how unhealthy the meta is atm. The problem with Chansey is how it forces you to not run spakers or completely shuts down spakers. Neither Vile/Slowking/Scizor encourage this sort of playstyle. Now, take out either one of the 3 (scizor / slowking / vile) along with Chansey, that core still looks very strong and unbreakable. I'm not saying that it is unbreakable, but it is something that a special attacker cannot do (except maybe rest talk early bird Xatu.) Only a bellydrummer can break through this core completely unless you trap Chansey. Muk is pretty cool btw but if you explode, then you still don't solve the problem because vile/scizor/chansey again is a very strong core. The pokes that I mentioned were from my reply to Keith where he included those pokemon as ones that could deal with Chansey. im not understanding how something that's just set up bait for half the tier could possibly be "broken" not to mention we have stuff like sub azumarill, morning sun scizor, kangaskhan, trapinch, diglett, wynaut, sub cm misdreavus No one's denying that Chansey is possible set up bait but the core it surrounds itself with prevents it from dying. Only sub drum azumarill is scary while sub azumarill is dealt with slowking/vile. Morning sun scizor, as I have mentioned is the safest switch in but Slowking deals with. Kangaskhan is valid but it can't set up if it switches in on toxic. When you're forced to use trapinch/diglett/wynaut, you know that something's definitely wrong :) Scizor deals with sub cm misd. Take out Chansey from this core, and you have a lot more options that generally open up because Misd/Azu cannot switch in on a toxic (assuming you take out scizor/slowking or vile) Edited July 2, 2015 by NikhilR Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I brought this up in the other thread, Chansey not only breaks special attackers completely, but it also renders Choice Band users pretty lame as well. Sure set-up pokes have a field day with it, like Swords Dance Zangoose or Encore/Bulk Up Poliwrath, but in the end Choice Banders come in, get met with protect and are forced to switch out or hit something that resists the attack they're locked into. Sure this can be a play made by damn near every pokemon in the game, but couple that with Chansey's ability to completely wall off special attackers and there you go. Because of this tactic the only truly viable CB user we have right now is Crawdaunt, and that's only because its STAB Crunch is only resisted by a few common pokes and hits generally everything hard. In the end though, Chansey is an Uber Defensive pokemon in the PokeMMO UU metagame. It is quite capable of walling a significant portion of the metagame (half of the metagame doesn't count?) and it can stall out a significant portion of the metagame as well (Wish + Protect + Toxic). Vaeldras, Arimanius and PandaJJ 3 Link to comment
DestructX Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 No one's denying that Chansey is possible set up bait but the core it surrounds itself with prevents it from dying. Only sub drum azumarill is scary while sub azumarill is dealt with slowking/vile. Morning sun scizor, as I have mentioned is the safest switch in but Slowking deals with. Kangaskhan is valid but it can't set up if it switches in on toxic. When you're forced to use trapinch/diglett/wynaut, you know that something's definitely wrong :) Scizor deals with sub cm misd. the fact that chansey's counters can be countered by other pokemon can literally be said for anything though gbwead 1 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) the fact that chansey's counters can be countered by other pokemon can literally be said for anything though The difference is that Chansey counters things on a much larger scale that others don't. Chansey counters every spaker, every cber which makes it very hard to stop thus allowing it to have very few counters. Edited July 2, 2015 by NikhilR Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 The difference is that Chansey counters things on a much larger scale that others don't. Chansey counters every spaker, every cber which makes it very hard to stop thus allowing it to have very few counters. I hate to nitpick here but chansey most certainly does not counter every choice bander. A counter can switch in on something and force it out repeatedly, chansey can switch in on approx. 0 choice banded attacks. It checks CB really well, though. To your earlier point about cores, I would agree that chansey seems to have a much more sizable role in the current UU core of choice than vileplume did in the old UU. In fact, chansey's ability to scout choice banders is a nearly uber support trait when combined with its ability to completely negate special attackers. Arimanius, JonazDK, DestructX and 2 others 5 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) I hate to nitpick here but chansey most certainly does not counter every choice bander. A counter can switch in on something and force it out repeatedly, chansey can switch in on approx. 0 choice banded attacks. It checks CB really well, though. To your earlier point about cores, I would agree that chansey seems to have a much more sizable role in the current UU core of choice than vileplume did in the old UU. In fact, chansey's ability to scout choice banders is a nearly uber support trait when combined with its ability to completely negate special attackers. Yeah counter is the wrong word to use, but I hope people understood what I meant. Edited July 2, 2015 by NikhilR Link to comment
DrCraig Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) In reaction to: Forfiter and JJ's post in Request thread WHAT DO YOU MEAN!?!?! Edit: Nah wait a damn minute How you gonna copy my entire discussion thread and not give me any credit What in the world is going on Edit2: This is blasphemy https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54042-uu-discussion-chansey/ Edited July 2, 2015 by DrCraig DaftCoolio 1 Link to comment
EyWey Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I do not like Chansey, but i think it can not check so easy wall breaker when you do not know if he use Choice Band or Sword Dance You can not use Protect to Scout the "CB move" because if you miss predict and it uses SD you will lose some pokemon for sure. Once you has scouted the enemy use CB, yes, Protect is really good agains CB gbwead 1 Link to comment
Tyrone Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 WHAT DO YOU MEAN!?!?! Edit: Nah wait a damn minute How you gonna copy my entire discussion thread and not give me any credit What in the world is going on Edit2: This is blasphemy https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54042-uu-discussion-chansey/ "In reaction to: DrCraig, Forfiter and JJ's post in Request thread, I've taken DrCraig's old Discussion post and edited a bit." Fixed. Apologies about the lack of credit. PandaJJ 1 Link to comment
ThinkNice Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I don't know why we are discussing cores or its healthiness etc. Chansey clearly fits in the Uber Support criterium Kizhaz, Arimanius, DoubleJ and 2 others 5 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I don't know why we are discussing cores or its healthiness etc. Chansey clearly fits in the Uber Support criterium Exactly what I'm trying to say! You guys scared em so bad they don't wanna call anything uber. DrCraig and Arimanius 2 Link to comment
DrCraig Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Alright so did the UU council have any thoughts on their tier or just the other councils? Robofiend, DoubleJ and Arimanius 3 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Excited to see the usage from today's tourney. Chansey on every team. Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 You don't realize how much Chansey dominates the UU meta until you watch an entire tournament. I mean, I knew it was highly prevalent but wow Robofiend, DrCraig and Arimanius 3 Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I might be wrong about this, but I believe FABROoo (the winner of the last UU tournament) never used chansey in his team - at least from what I have seen. I don't think usage should be a factor that determines wheter or not chansey should be ban. I would be more interesting in seeing the win rate of chansey teams versus non chansey teams. Link to comment
Recommended Posts