[UU Discussion] Chansey [Banned to BL]

[DrCraig]

I believe it fits the characteristics for ubers, but it's not like we can stop the test now and go "oh yea, nvm." Maybe in 6 tournaments it will be banned, maybe for the wrong reason, but banned like I think it should be.

[Gunthug]

yeah I think its harmless as long as the council knows that this should not be the norm for every ban. With support ubers though I think it can be harder to truly determine whether a poke fits the criteria, since its such a subjective and indirect examination (how a poke makes its teammates better) so a test ban in this case will be beneficial.

 

That being said, I think after a tournament or two we'll be convinced that it was the right decision. Gotta wait 6 weeks on zam, though? That might be a problem

[DoubleJ]

yeah I think its harmless as long as the council knows that this should not be the norm for every ban. With support ubers though I think it can be harder to truly determine whether a poke fits the criteria, since its such a subjective and indirect examination (how a poke makes its teammates better) so a test ban in this case will be beneficial.

That being said, I think after a tournament or two we'll be convinced that it was the right decision. Gotta wait 6 weeks on zam, though? That might be a problem

That was my concern. A test ban only prolongs the other bans that might need to go along with it, like Zam and Exegg.

[Robofiend]

This is flawed, because for all we know, the meta might be better with chansey than without, despite it being banworthy. For example, there might be new things (alakazam?) that will make the meta even worse by simply banning chnasey. If everybody agrees in theory, then there is no reason to test it in practice. Those results will likely not be of any value.

 

Anyways, I'm happy to see this being tested.

 

PandaJJ - this post is not solely directed at you, especially because I'm not sure your taking this position.

 

The sentiment you expressed is just wrong by TC policy. If Chansey is banworthy (be it unhealthy, Defensively Uber or Support-Uber) then keeping it around to check Alakazam is a violation of one of the most basic tenets of this shit: you don't keep broken shit around to check broken shit. Bans based on "unhealthiness" are no different than bans based on raw power in this regard. 

 

In which universe would anyone decide to unban Chansey anyway? Most people in this thread argued to straight up ban it, so why bother with a test that everyone knows the outcome of? 6 UU tournaments now it's pretty likely everyone will be sick of getting swept by Zam, anyway.

[LionKIng]

PandaJJ - this post is not solely directed at you, especially because I'm not sure your taking this position.

 

The sentiment you expressed is just wrong by TC policy. If Chansey is banworthy (be it unhealthy, Defensively Uber or Support-Uber) then keeping it around to check Alakazam is a violation of one of the most basic tenets of this shit: you don't keep broken shit around to check broken shit. Bans based on "unhealthiness" are no different than bans based on raw power in this regard. 

 

In which universe would anyone decide to unban Chansey anyway? Most people in this thread argued to straight up ban it, so why bother with a test that everyone knows the outcome of? 6 UU tournaments now it's pretty likely everyone will be sick of getting swept by Zam, anyway.

took the words out of my mouth. I really think chansey being banned + other bans that will follow will make UU a better place and maybee we will see more NU's come into UU because team building will be such less of a pain in the ass because of how thin your posibilities really are. Overall it'll make both NU and UU better tiers given alot of pokemons in NU could have a nice place in the UU environement if Chansey and all his OP friends get banned.

[DrCraig]

Ultimately we are looking at UU+Umbreon+Scizor+Slowking, I mean come on now. Why is Zard still in the tier?

[Arimanius]

Chansey MUST die go and Alakazam should go with her

[DoubleJ]

Idk why you're worried about Charizard though Craig, it's got little usage and hasn't really proven to be as effective as say Scizor. Sure it gets a Belly Drum sweep every other match, but that's only when you've scouted your opponent for that possibility. 

[PandaJJ]

PandaJJ - this post is not solely directed at you, especially because I'm not sure your taking this position.

The sentiment you expressed is just wrong by TC policy. If Chansey is banworthy (be it unhealthy, Defensively Uber or Support-Uber) then keeping it around to check Alakazam is a violation of one of the most basic tenets of this shit: you don't keep broken shit around to check broken shit. Bans based on "unhealthiness" are no different than bans based on raw power in this regard.

In which universe would anyone decide to unban Chansey anyway? Most people in this thread argued to straight up ban it, so why bother with a test that everyone knows the outcome of? 6 UU tournaments now it's pretty likely everyone will be sick of getting swept by Zam, anyway.

I'm on the phone atm, but felt like I needed to respond to this.
My point clearly did not come through, as I totally agree with you. My point is that since chansey is potentially checking some other broken stuff, having a test ban to "see whether it's actually banworthy" might not make sense. The entire point with having ban criteria is that one can ban a pokemon without looking at how the meta looks without that pokemon, and I think it is obvious that chansey is banworthy. Let's say that a tier had three broken pokemon A, B and C. Say that A checks B, B checks C and C checks A. Removing only one of the broken pokemon would make the tier worse, because another broken pokemon now loses its best check and the entire tier will now revolve about this pokemon (for example removing A makes B overventralizing.) If chansey were to be one of these three pokemon, you can see that having a test ban could give misleading results. We are already at a point where chansey could be banned immediately.

[DoubleJ]

This past tournament it felt soooo good without chansey. I saw so many interesting teams and I only envision the creativity to grow.

[Arimanius]

This past tournament it felt soooo good without chansey. I saw so many interesting teams and I only envision the creativity to grow.

 

I can't agree more with this, also not many long fights, the only one taking more than 45 min was doctorpbc vs guenrif, all the others I'm pretty sure are below the 30 min, I want to see the usage so we can see what was used the most as a sp wall and what other Pokemons raised in usage

[Robofiend]

UU is looking a lot better without Chansey, I agree. There are still too many Vileplume/Slowking cores out there, but its cool to see unique teams instead of battle of the unbreakable defenses

Edited July 26, 2015 by Robofiend

[RysPicz]

Let it rot in BL :)

[Arimanius]

UU is looking a lot better without Chansey, I agree. There are still too many Vileplume/Slowking cores out there, but its cool to see unique teams instead of battle of the unbreakable defenses

 

I agree and about the Vileplume/Slowking core the thing is there are so many fighting moves in uu, almost any CB has Superpower, so u need something to stop it and these guys are the best for the job, that's what I think, besides that they have instant recovery which is awesome but they're not unbreakable like chansey almost was

[DoubleJ]

And manectric does a great job with them and their other buddy steelix

[BurntZebra]

And manectric does a great job with them and their other buddy steelix

Except it has no bulk so it can't switch in on any of their attacks and loses to calm mind slowking 1v1 anyways and steelix beats all flamethrower variants and special defensive steelix beats overheat ones as well. Vileplume is usually forced out if manectric comes in on a non attacking move and its physically defensive vileplume.

 

I feel like the meta is still similar from before, but now instead of chansey, we have porygon, clefable, and umbreon, and its just like run diglett or try to get lucky with rng. 

[Robofiend]

Keep in mind that porygon/umbreon are going to OU someday

[Liberalisme]

Keep in mind that porygon/umbreon are going to OU someday

Why Umbreon? Umbreon is fine in UU.

[DrCraig]

Why Umbreon? Umbreon is fine in UU.

Usage will move it up most likely.

[Robofiend]

Why Umbreon? Umbreon is fine in UU.

 

it's OU by usage

[gbwead]

Did the TT count as one of the 6 official UU tournaments?

[RysPicz]

I hope yes, so chansey can get the permaban

[Artemiseta]

The UU tier council has decided to ban Chansey. Chansey is being banned because it has been deemed unhealthy for the meta. This was a hard decision to come to, but ultimately Chansey is just able to wall a lot of pokemon too well. 

 

 

A definition of being unhealthy: a pokemon which is unhealthy is something which heavily stagnates or centralizes the metagame in a way which is problematic for a healthy metagame.

 

What Chansey is capable of doing/ reasons for unhealthiness (credit to JJ for putting what I wrote into a  better form)

 1. Chansey beats, or stalls, every special attacker with one common set (Seismic Toss, Wish, Protect, Toxic). This fact alone limits team building severely in our current UU tier.

2. Chansey is easily supported, and also protected from counters through access to Wish + Protect + simple switching. Choice Banders are at a disadvantage to Chansey by a simple protect and switch. UU Swords Dancers are also fairly weak. They either have incredibly significant weaknesses to common attacks, lack reliable STABS to nab OHKO's, lack coverage, have little bulk, and/or are just too slow to make a strong effect. 

3. Chansey outclasses Umbreon, Porygon2, Vileplume, and other Special Defense walls/pivots. Chansey even can act as a reliable defensive pivot with its decent bulk.

4. Chansey is simply too good of a wall not to use and this can kill diversity in an otherwise deep tier.

 

During the duration of the test ban special attackers have begun to appear in the meta showing an increased level of healthiness.We have also seen more diversity in the play style of the UU tier.

 

At the same time, we have not seen special attackers completely dominate the tier with Chansey removed during this recent test ban. This demonstrates that despite Chansey being an incredibly reliable Special Wall, there are other methods of dealing with the special attackers in our tier, further supporting the health of this meta without Chansey present.

[Arimanius]

+1 uu council, it didn't need a test though

[Gunthug]

It's also going up by usage lel. A nice write up though, although the part about Uu swords dancers being weak is a little much