Any will to fix the doubles tier

[Jgaw]

Here is screenshots of the log of the game i played, in like 5 turns u Can win à doubles game, u can even win or lose a DuBz game from ur first turn 

So the issue here isn't the elo points u get and climb the ladder of pvp, it s about the battle points and mostly about the matchmaking points (to win the the reward hat after 10k points gathered) 

Doubles tier itself should have its own points algorithm, just like thé forfeiting turns (normal is after 5 turns/doubles after 3 turns) 

So normally after 5 turns and making a win, à player should get Battle points + matchmaking points 

Ce que j ai mentionné au dessus reste toujours non valide, à ceux qui gèrent le processus de rémunération des points d'approuver mon point de vue ou la juger fausse, mais la logique nécessite d'avoir reçu des points "matchmaking points" 

Thanks 

[razimove]

I struggle to see the problem, you got elo, and you got a fast match, thats it, anything else is extra, also worth noting that the only problem matchmaking suffers from is lack of playerbase, the playerbase sample is all concentrated in OU, since it's the tier with least changes usually, less risk of you losing value on a mon you bought/bred, and isn't rng heavy like doubles.

[Jgaw]

1 minute ago, razimove said:

I struggle to see the problem, you got elo, and you got a fast match, thats it, anything else is extra, also worth noting that the only problem matchmaking suffers from is lack of playerbase, the playerbase sample is all concentrated in OU, since it's the tier with least changes usually, less risk of you losing value on a mon you bought/bred, and isn't rng heavy like doubles.

It s normal that u can't struggle to see the problem simply because u don't play doubles  start playing and farm the 10k hat then you understand the issue with that.. 

"fast match" in doubles is never the same compared to "fast match" in other tiers

And How à fast match is defined (low number of turns/short battle time) thé algorithm calculating this for doubles should never be the same as other tiers. 

[razimove]

55 minutes ago, Jgaw said:

start playing and farm the 10k hat 

first you assume I'd want some vanity, which is wrong, for me and most, it's irrelevant and honestly it's not what will get people to play anything (maybe a handful of roleplayers like you), fast match in doubles format can be compared to other tiers, and nothing you can say will ever change that, you're just mad that people aren't allowing you to farm your hat as fast as you'd like

Edited July 1, 2023 by razimove

[Edwardinho]

I was watching turn by turn, every detail of every move in that game. There was no turn 5, he gave up at the moment that turn 5 would be played, so it was correct that the system did not proceed to generate points.

[CaptnBaklava]

1 hour ago, Edwardinho said:

I was watching turn by turn, every detail of every move in that game. There was no turn 5, he gave up at the moment that turn 5 would be played, so it was correct that the system did not proceed to generate points.

And that is the key problem. 

The system should award you points for beating your opponent. In a fast paced metagame wich dubs is there should be no penalty for ending games quickly. 

I got 100 points toward the vanity in 3 ou wins but only 28 in 3 dubs wins. Wich makes earning the seasonal vanity way harder than it already is in a tier thats so low populated. 

[PinkWings]

2 hours ago, Edwardinho said:

I was watching turn by turn, every detail of every move in that game. There was no turn 5, he gave up at the moment that turn 5 would be played, so it was correct that the system did not proceed to generate points.

 Opponent never "gave up" he just lost the match.

You should not get punished for winning a game too fast (forfeit or not) 

In dubs you can lose pokemon a lot faster. I havent played dubs matchmaking in a pretty long time, but it happened too often that people forfeit early. And I get it, cuz why wait for turn 5 when you know you will lose, but its a pretty bad system for the dubs format.

[Jgaw]

4 hours ago, razimove said:

first you assume I'd want some vanity, which is wrong, for me and most, it's irrelevant and honestly it's not what will get people to play anything (maybe a handful of roleplayers like you), fast match in doubles format can be compared to other tiers, and nothing you can say will ever change that, you're just mad that people aren't allowing you to farm your hat as fast as you'd like

- im so sorry to tell u that doubles format can NEVER be compared to other tiers (the forfeiting based on number of turns proves this)
- i am not saying or posting this thread because i am angry , NOT AT ALL, i m trying to make the doubles tier a better place to be played, so i shared my thoughts with the community, a simple discussion based on meaningful arguments can lead to a conclusion.

- i don't need other to give me wins, i will  farm the hat whatever it takes, 1 month, 2 months, the whole season, i don't care i will ABSOLUTELY GET IT, it s just about the will and having some goals in the game , u can call it roleplayer or whatever, we have to respect all choices of every player in the game,
==> to conclude, it s not about having the hat so fast but about enhancing the Doubles tier as it should be, u slope from the main thread to sthg else :/

[Zuladra]

How does the system calculate the rewards obtained by a victory? To objectively assess the situation, we need:

 

- Determining factors
- Percentage for each factor
- Average number of matches to get 1200 points according to Elo
- These same data compared to the single format

 

This would allow us to assess the situation and provide solutions. I think that would improve the attractiveness of the format.

[razimove]

5 hours ago, CaptnBaklava said:

The system should award you points for beating your opponent.

This was implemented to prevent people from spam farming it, which was done in the past. The main problem is lack of users really, which is something they should actually aim to fix and encourage people to try the format and other lowers tiers. 

[CaptnBaklava]

8 hours ago, razimove said:

This was implemented to prevent people from spam farming it, which was done in the past. The main problem is lack of users really, which is something they should actually aim to fix and encourage people to try the format and other lowers tiers. 

The thing is someone farming it with 2 accounts will just take the 10 seconds more it needs to get rewarded. It does not prevent abusing the system. In the current state the only people at a disadvantage are normal everyday player. 

[razimove]

24 minutes ago, CaptnBaklava said:

The thing is someone farming it with 2 accounts will just take the 10 seconds more it needs to get rewarded. It does not prevent abusing the system. In the current state the only people at a disadvantage are normal everyday player. 

Thats bannable, and its not what it is preventing but friends abusing dead tiers or formats to win trade. No matter what someone says, matches dont generally end at turn5, the screenshot he placed there was from a sub 500 elo (which idk how someone even goes below 500 tbh) vs someone that just ended storyline, poor dude just quit when he got a chance after getting bullied by competitive mons.

[PinkWings]

4 hours ago, razimove said:

Thats bannable, and its not what it is preventing but friends abusing dead tiers or formats to win trade. No matter what someone says, matches dont generally end at turn5, the screenshot he placed there was from a sub 500 elo (which idk how someone even goes below 500 tbh) vs someone that just ended storyline, poor dude just quit when he got a chance after getting bullied by competitive mons.

The season just started, everyone was at 500 elo again. So its not that weird to go below 500 elo (because you are facing high level players at 500 elo)

And you can say he bullied a noob playing story, but you get those in ou too and still get matchmaking points at the end. Guy had to waste a flying gem on the noob and got nothing.

 

But yes matches dont generally end at turn 5, but even in high elo there are people who forfeit by turn 4 when they recognize they can't win. You still lose any consumable resources in those turns (berries/gems) while getting nothing back. Yes you get elo, but elo doesnt help you get the vanity.

[Zuladra]

If anyone has a solution to improve the viability and attractiveness of the format we could make a suggestion.

 

Matchmaking Points

- Reduce to 3 turns minimum to get points

- Increase the points obtained by a victory

 

Pokemon reward (already posted)

- Allow trading to an NPC (similar to the Prismatic Pearl system)
- Allow IVs to be adjusted (e.g. using Gracideas)
- Allow to choose the species
- Allow to choose the ability

 

Double format

- VGC-style official events

- In-game forum PvP guides

[razimove]

10 hours ago, PinkWings said:

Yes you get elo, but elo doesnt help you get the vanity.

But the vanity is pretty much just an extra, I struggle to see that why you guys always expect some sort of reward for everything you do, match ended soon, he still got elo, which is the main thing, just move on and jump on the next match, I spectated ~8 games, which was all the time I had yesterday, and no game ended at turn 4-5, its understandable that some end that early due to the rng nature of doubles. Consumables are in the end, consumed, and generally it's not something I'd care for given how cheap they are, even if you lose like 3-5k every few matches, does that really have an impact?

 

 

59 minutes ago, Zuladra said:

Pokemon reward (already posted)

- Allow trading to an NPC (similar to the Prismatic Pearl system)
- Allow IVs to be adjusted (e.g. using Gracideas)
- Allow to choose the species
- Allow to choose the ability

All they had to do to make it more appealing is create some sort of bottlecap system (which exists on original games), and instead of the crappy rewards we get, put bottlecaps and a comp mon that could even start with no ivs and nature, so people could then work towards a fully functional comp through bottlecaps. This was suggested in the past I believe.

[Onraider]

10 minutes ago, razimove said:

But the vanity is pretty much just an extra, I struggle to see that why you guys always expect some sort of reward for everything you do, match ended soon, he still got elo, which is the main thing, just move on and jump on the next match, I spectated ~8 games, which was all the time I had yesterday, and no game ended at turn 4-5, its understandable that some end that early due to the rng nature of doubles. Consumables are in the end, consumed, and generally it's not something I'd care for given how cheap they are, even if you lose like 3-5k every few matches, does that really have an impact?
 

Main reason being in tiers such as dubs UU NU finding ladder games itself is not as easy compared to OU and randoms. You might find it easier to find games at the beginning of the season and maybe in the days leading upto seasonals but in the rest of time you will have to wait queue after queue after queue. So after waiting that long to get a game and for it to not count for matchmaking points which are needed for the vanity can be annoying

Edited July 2, 2023 by Onraider

[razimove]

24 minutes ago, Onraider said:

Main reason being in tiers such as dubs UU NU finding ladder games itself is not as easy compared to OU and randoms.

 

On 7/1/2023 at 5:49 PM, razimove said:

. The main problem is lack of users really

indeed

[Zuladra]

2 hours ago, razimove said:

create some sort of bottlecap system

Seems like a good suggestion, if it's already been shared by players we'll have to wait and see.

 

2 hours ago, razimove said:

The main problem is lack of users really

Yes, but the lack of users is also a consequence of the low attractiveness > low number of players > low attractiveness etc.

 

In order to resolve the situation, we need to understand the system and then suggest solutions.

 

Interestingly, even though the official format of the Pokémon World Championships is a double battle, this is not reflected in PokeMMO.

[razimove]

50 minutes ago, Zuladra said:

ut the lack of users is also a consequence of the low attractiveness > low number of players > low attractiveness etc.

unsure what you're trying to say, but the only reason for this is literally people wanting to play a stable metagame, which OU is, compared to lower tiers (which have been a complete mess due to some TC decisions for months now) and well people not wanting to invest into a format like doubles. Doubles as a format is not even remotely close to VGC as a whole. You don't need to understand or suggest anything, the problem has to be solved by devs, and you'll soon understand that any suggestion anyone makes barely holds any value to them, maybe if the chinese community rioted, which is the money cow for them.
 

[Zuladra]

Yes, lower tiers suffer from instability, but Doubles is a different format and the only way to find out why it's not popular would be to ask players. Matches are fast and the meta is stable. Maybe a lack of information?

 

Developers make the game and people play it, so player suggestions are valuable to them. Based on recent events, we can say that the developers are listening to suggestions and issues reported by the community.

 

The PvP system has improved a lot over the years and it shows that there is interest and resources invested in this part of the game. The feeling of slowness is perhaps only subjective and depends on the interests of each player. PvP probably only represents a minority of regular players, which would explain why it doesn't seem to be one of the main areas for improvement.

 

In conclusion, I think looking for suggestions to make the double format more viable is an interesting topic that is a work in progress and a team effort between developers and players. Maybe replacing the current format with the official VGC mode would be something to try?

[Jgaw]

On 7/2/2023 at 2:16 AM, CaptnBaklava said:

In the current state the only people at a disadvantage are normal everyday player. 

 

On 7/1/2023 at 9:37 AM, razimove said:

you're just mad that people aren't allowing you to farm your hat as fast as you'd like

Now im really so mad knowing i will continue autumn and winter seasons and nothing has been made as a main enhance for DuBz

 

On 7/1/2023 at 1:56 PM, Jgaw said:

- i don't need other to give me wins, i will  farm the hat whatever it takes, 1 month, 2 months, the whole season, i don't care i will ABSOLUTELY GET IT, it s just about the will and having some goals in the game