fredrichnietze Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 everyone is agreed that if we do this we absolutely must have gen 4 moves yea? if not lets discuss it now. Link to comment
BenGorgon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 everyone is agreed that if we do this we absolutely must have gen 4 moves yea? if not lets discuss it now. nah... [Spoiler] While it will make certain Pokemon more viable if they can run some of their generation 4 moves, I don't believe it is inherently necessary for things to move forward. Sure, the meta game will look much different than either the 3rd or 4th Gens, but I am kinda excited about that. It is new territory that needs to be carefully examined to get truely good Pokemon, and in a slow moving meta like this, it means people are on a more even playing field outside of just blitzing those Blissy or Scizors. This is the first step. We can still play without those moves, they just effect the game differently. Basically, you have to lay the foundation before you can build a house, and the split is the foundation. That said, I would love to see the implementation of new moves. However, I also would like them to come slowly personally. This means that there is incentive to continue waiting for developments. By this I mean, it is much like new equipment integration in other MMOs. While this new equipment may or may not be "stronger", the order of implementation will keep us constantly rethinking the meta and how we play competitively. Anyway, this is imo of course, I just don't think it is inherently necessary to implement Gen 4 moves prior to the split. [/Spoiler] Link to comment
IndigoGlacier Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Who knows. the moves might come in a couple months. Focus blast is gen4, right? Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) nah... [Spoiler] While it will make certain Pokemon more viable if they can run some of their generation 4 moves, I don't believe it is inherently necessary for things to move forward. Sure, the meta game will look much different than either the 3rd or 4th Gens, but I am kinda excited about that. It is new territory that needs to be carefully examined to get truely good Pokemon, and in a slow moving meta like this, it means people are on a more even playing field outside of just blitzing those Blissy or Scizors. This is the first step. We can still play without those moves, they just effect the game differently. Basically, you have to lay the foundation before you can build a house, and the split is the foundation. That said, I would love to see the implementation of new moves. However, I also would like them to come slowly personally. This means that there is incentive to continue waiting for developments. By this I mean, it is much like new equipment integration in other MMOs. While this new equipment may or may not be "stronger", the order of implementation will keep us constantly rethinking the meta and how we play competitively. Anyway, this is imo of course, I just don't think it is inherently necessary to implement Gen 4 moves prior to the split. [/Spoiler] ok im going to link this guide https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/49518-a-guide-to-moves-with-the-physicalspecial-split/ which is pretty good. go take a look at the split. there are absolutely no special dark special fighting special steel (on nyi legendary does not count) phsyical psychic and no viable moves for special dragon special ground special rock special flying physical poison physical ghost with the exception of hp for special dragon/ground/rock/flying. further more many types like physical bug have only one good viable move in it (megahorn) with a very small pool of pokemon that can learn it. when the split happened 112 moves were added. the reason these moves were added to balance everything. i dont see any reason at all not to balance the game with these moves and loads of reason why not doing it is a bad idea. credits to artemiseta/apollofire for pointing out not everyone thinks this way already EDIT: @ indigo http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_moves #355-467 Edited January 7, 2015 by fredrichnietze Noad and flavajabari 2 Link to comment
thenamesed Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 If this split happens on live server I'll be happy with the new breeding mechanics as well. Link to comment
BenGorgon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 ok im going to link this guide https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/49518-a-guide-to-moves-with-the-physicalspecial-split/ which is pretty good. go take a look at the split. there are absolutely no special dark special fighting special steel (on nyi legendary does not count) phsyical psychic and no viable moves for special dragon special ground special rock special flying physical poison physical ghost with the exception of hp for special dragon/ground/rock/flying. further more many types like physical bug have only one good viable move in it (megahorn) with a very small pool of pokemon that can learn it. when the split happened 112 moves were added. the reason these moves were added to balance everything. i dont see any reason at all not to balance the game with these moves and loads of reason why not doing it is a bad idea. EDIT: @ indigo http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/List_of_moves #355-467 Quick breakdown firstly of Pokemon that actually need / could benefit from having those STABs or Coverage. I will probably miss something, but we will see: Special Dark: Houndoom - This is the only one I see really hurt by no Dark Pulse tbh Umbreon - Debatable, terrible attacking stats either way, still likely better with Pursuit either way. Special Fighting: There are several pokes that benefit from the Focus Blast coverage, but I am not seeing any real "necessity", or anything Hidden Power wouldn't cover. Special Steel: Magneton - While Flash Cannon would be nice to deal with some rock types, it is not like we had access to this anyway. Also, Hidden Power becomes an option. Physical Psychic Metagross - I can see an argument being made for Zen Headbutt here, it is nice coverage, but shit... This thing is still a powerhouse without. Medicham - This guy is the big one losing out with no Zen Headbutt. However, he has access to some amazing coverage moves which I think more than will make up for it. --------- Special Dragon Kingdra - Yeah, I would really love some Dragon Pulse here, but really, STAB Surf under rain is generally better, and all the Dragons this Gen are hit harder by Ice Beam. It is a nice neutral coverage move, but this beast isn't losing out on a ton imo. Sceptile - See above, minus STAB Altaria - This poke may be a special variant, but tbh, the physical set, cleric set, or perish+sing set have always been better. Special Ground Claydol - I am sure Claydol would LOVE some Earth Power, but again, it is not like we had any option for special ground before the split. Now at least, it has the option to use HP Ground. Special Rock Omastar - Yeah, this is the only Special Attacking rock type, and it can't even learn the one viable special rock-type move, Power Gem... Sometimes it might run HP Rock in usage, so that is actually a +1 for the split here... Special Flying - The only special flying move in Gen 4 that I am aware of, is Air Cutter, which is unreliable, and pretty crappy in general, and Air Slash which has an absolutely abysmal few number of Pokemon that learn it. Butterfree and Ledian - Srsly, do I even need to go here... Togetic - Didn't have a viable Flying move before, and DPP usage has it running HP Flying anyway on an special attacking set >.> Xatu - Does not run a flying move anyway. Now can use HP Flying, but usage shows HP Ground is more viable. Mantine - Now has the option to run HP Flying, which is in most of its' usage sets. Peliper - This poke might lose out a bit by not having Air Slash. Altaria - See Special Dragon Tropius - Again may lose out a little without Air Slash, but it is quite livable. Physical Poison - Here is where the argument starts to hold some water, but seriously, there are a limited number of viable poison types in the first place. Arbok - Loses out on a STAB with poor coverage, but I can see where it can be hurt being its' only viable option. Nidoking - See above, but 6/10 times you are EQing instead. Seviper - This guy will be hurt in much the same way Arbok will, but has enough attack to pull through. Crobat/Goldbat - Yeah, it hurts these guys, Crobat arguably less so, as it runs mixed anyway usually, but for sure. Beedrill - Does anyone even use this? Ariados - Yeah, runs Poison Jab usually. This guy will take a hit. Quilfish - Occasionally runs Poison Jab, but is generally better run with the D-Bond+Spikes set imo. Muk - This is the saddest imo, but it sometimes runs a special or mixed variant, which while not as viable, still does alright. ~~~ A Special Shout-Out!!~~~ Just consider all of the poison types that are finally getting that STAB off of their primary attacking stat though: Victribell Haunter/Gengar Tentacruel Venamoth Vileploom Venasaur Roselia Physical Bug: This is where it becomes the most apparent. There are a good deal of Pokemon that it hurts so I will quick list them Scyther Scizor Pinsir Forretress (Be aware it only gets Bug Bite and Pin Missile in Gen 4 however) Parasect Ninjask Yanma Beedrill (Nah but srs question, does anyone use this?) Shuckle (Mayyyybbeeee... Knock off is still better than Bug Bite) ----- Phew... Anyway, be aware I did this whole thing because I was rather curious myself and wanted to see the full extent of the "damage" that might be caused by doing the split with no Gen 4 moves, not to waggle my finger at anyone or whatever. It seems like it really would not be that big of a deal all things considered, and there are many more Pokemon that are receiving this STAB that is being "taken away" from other Pokemon. That being said, you could pretty much neutralize all of these major cons by implementing two moves right off, X-Scissor and Poison Jab... Those are my thoughts, feel free to point out what I missed here, I know there is something.... Link to comment
Artemiseta Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) u forgot banette fr your list. and pokemon like poliwrath that now lose coverage in their hidden powers (not best example because it gains waterfall) wait fearow better point to make witout hp ground knew ide figure it out... I like a lot of your arguments Ben. imagine if that kingdra of yours had a special dragon move to use on me... however that was not al my points. I was saying that a good chucnk of pokemon lose what set them apart in what they are capable of doing. (point mainly focused in lack of physical ghost, poison, bug moves and lack of special dark move) also fred there is a special rock move. ancient power! unless I misread noads post and the time on the PTS stab special sludgebomb on king not bad but not a step up either. you ran that for predicted swithes like fearow and the like there is a hole in the argument though special poison gets a pretty large boost no question but do they want that boost. I would have to run calcs which I hate doing but stab special sludge bomb doesn't 2 shots flareon and thus u lose a large coverage Edited January 7, 2015 by APollofire Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 New contender for the throne guys, it's got dual stabs, rain dance, and swords dance with a decent speed and above average physical stat. Even got that bulk. Kabutops w/ Swift Swim is legend. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
BenGorgon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 u forgot banette fr your list. and pokemon like poliwrath that now lose coverage in their hidden powers (not best example because it gains waterfall) wait fearow better point to make witout hp ground knew ide figure it out... I like a lot of your arguments Ben. imagine if that kingdra of yours had a special dragon move to use on me... however that was not al my points. I was saying that a good chucnk of pokemon lose what set them apart in what they are capable of doing. (point mainly focused in lack of physical ghost, poison, bug moves and lack of special dark move) also fred there is a special rock move. ancient power! unless I misread noads post and the time on the PTS stab special sludgebomb on king not bad but not a step up either. you ran that for predicted swithes like fearow and the like there is a hole in the argument though special poison gets a pretty large boost no question but do they want that boost. I would have to run calcs which I hate doing but stab special sludge bomb doesn't 2 shots flareon and thus u lose a large coverage For some weird reason I thought that Bannette got Shadow Punch, apparently not :/ Yeah, it is going to be hurt a bit, but adversely, Haunter/Gengar and MissyD is getting a reliable Ghost STAB there. Fearow is kind of a wash for me, as it can run Steel Wing (laugh at me all you like) for Rock types. As far as the special... well anything, they all now have access to using HP for coverage. Kingdra sets occasionally run HP Dragon, which is 20 Base Power less than Dragon Pule in Gen 4, again, I would actually prefer HP Electric/Grass for simple SE coverage options. But seriously, I am much more concerned here with the overall face of the meta, rather than the usage of a few Pokemon. The point here is that it in no way "breaks the game" to have the split without Gen 4 moves. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
Artemiseta Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 it mght get shadow punch bt consider the drop off that it has to endure (I forgot about shadow punch tbh) had stab mov ein shadow ball that was its main move now settles for a lot less power and loses its coverge in hp fighting the meta itself in particular uu meta changes drastically from these pokemon dropping. Link to comment
Senile Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) New contender for the throne guys, it's got dual stabs, rain dance, and swords dance with a decent speed and above average physical stat. Even got that bulk. Kabutops w/ Swift Swim is legend. Personally, I love Kabutops; His dual STAB is god tier, and with rain and a Swords Dance he's basically unstoppable. ...And that's exactly the problem. The reason he was such a good sweeper in gens 5/6 w/ rain support was that he didn't have to rely on setting up rain himself. Infinite rain (before drizzleswim was b&), or 8 turn rain in Gen 6 let him get off an SD on a good switchin for free. However, here we only have 5 turns; This means that either A) Kabutops has to setup rain himself. Assuming your opponent isn't braindead of some description, this prevents you from setting up your godly SD. B ) Some other pokemon sets up Rain. By the time this is done, Kabutops comes in, and SDs, you have very few rain turns even left, even if you somehow engineer a perfect situation where Kabutops can immediately come in on something for a free SD immediately after setting up rain. Somehow. Maybe he won't need the +2 from SD that badly here, and it's not like he can't afford to run Rain Dance himself; The problem is simply in the fact that, if you're facing an opponent that lets you setup twice with your Kabutops, you've clearly already put them in such a shitty position it was practically already game, or they're just poop. I shouldn't have to explain why a Kabutops with SD and no rain isn't anywhere near as threatening, I hope. With that being said, Kabutops should pretty much be on any attempt to make a rain team work in OU ever. It's still good, even though I feel it's incredibly limited by the setup it needs, and a physical rain sweeper is pretty godsend for rain teams, because Blissey exists. Edited January 7, 2015 by Senile Robofiend and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
BenGorgon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 the meta itself in particular uu meta changes drastically from these pokemon dropping. Sure, it changes. We will likely see a much more offense driven meta. But I don't think change is bad, particularly in this case. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Sure, it changes. We will likely see a much more offense driven meta. But I don't think change is bad, particularly in this case. Honestly, its hard to believe people are genuinely disappointed in the changes since the new mechanics make offense way more viable and Vap stall will no longer work as well as it currently does. BenGorgon 1 Link to comment
IndigoGlacier Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Honestly, its hard to believe people are genuinely disappointed in the changes since the new mechanics make offense way more viable and Vap stall will no longer work as well as it currently does. I think people are still upset about the new breeding system than the new mechanics tbh. Link to comment
Artemiseta Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 First not sure u mean I'm dissappointed in the changes cause I'm not I've been on pts and generally enjoyed it Second I look more at uu side so vap change although helpful for when I do OU was not as big issue for me though from time on pts slowbro is a hard nut to crack Third even though I'm not against the change there needs to still be balance. Ex giving some not all moves in gen 4 at least to the degree that there is a viable replacement for moves lost. Ex poison jab to complement sludge bomb any physical bug move for pinsir and scyther and soon to be armaldo cause they don't get mega horn (to my knowledge) and so on (think only other ones I caught was dark special move though hidden power may work here and decent physical ghost) Fourth breeding was fun although time consuming a bit the end product gave a sense of accomplishment I keep forgetting to put some screen shots up I might get around to that later (know not completely on topic but should include cause not an issue) Noad 1 Link to comment
lVlusay Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Saying that the benefit of this update is more offense is wrong. Some people enjoy playing offensively, others prefer playing defensively. Also, we don't need a split to have more offensive options (if that's what you are really looking for). We need more pokemons and pokemons like blaziken, sceptile, metagross and swampert provide exactly that. Swampert because it allows for the use of a bulky water in offensive teams other than vaporeon and pairs better with aerodactyl, gayarados and so on. And just to remind people that while we might get more offensive options with physical dark attacks and ele punches, we will also have several major offensive threats banned. Edited January 7, 2015 by lVlusay Gilvy 1 Link to comment
codylramey Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 will defensive play be a viable option? Senile always did say that in a balanced meta offensive and defensive play are viable options. Link to comment
Gilvy Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Split without gen4moves ... Well, this + new breeding, time to think about quitting... Link to comment
OldKeith Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 will defensive play be a viable option? If the dragons get banned. Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Defense won't be that viable in OU to be honest. There are many methods to take out walls to get a sweep ready with tyranitar or metagross. Metagross/snorlax can both explode on one wall for a pretty much guaranteed kill (besides vs ghosts and max def skarm/forretress)+magneton to trap steel types before metagross/snorlax explode+a plethora of pursuit trappers that can either ohko or severely damage pokemon on the switch that may be important to a wall team. Not to mention wobbuffet+dugtrio are unbanned for the time being, meaning nothing is safe from the wrath of pure trapping, so basically there's no way anyone would run a serious wall team in OU unless they found something that doesn't die to a cb explosion/can't be trapped by wobbuffet (shed shell skarm pls) Link to comment
Senile Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Defense won't be that viable in OU to be honest. There are many methods to take out walls to get a sweep ready with tyranitar or metagross. Metagross/snorlax can both explode on one wall for a pretty much guaranteed kill (besides vs ghosts and max def skarm/forretress)+magneton to trap steel types before metagross/snorlax explode+a plethora of pursuit trappers that can either ohko or severely damage pokemon on the switch that may be important to a wall team. Not to mention wobbuffet+dugtrio are unbanned for the time being, meaning nothing is safe from the wrath of pure trapping, so basically there's no way anyone would run a serious wall team in OU unless they found something that doesn't die to a cb explosion/can't be trapped by wobbuffet (shed shell skarm pls) who in the world told you wobbu was unbanned m8 Link to comment
OldKeith Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 who in the world told you wobbu was unbanned m8 The PTS pokedex. hue Link to comment
Senile Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 The PTS pokedex. hue [spoiler]wobbuffet will still be banned after the update[/spoiler] Link to comment
codylramey Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Senile i gotta say you are talking to the community in a lot less insulting way. Its actually pleasant reading ur responses now. +1 Link to comment
OldKeith Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Damn, and I thought I was op when I pulled some Wobbuffets on people. Link to comment
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