[Discussion]Tyranitar [Banned from "OU" to Ubers]

[DrCraig]

Did I say corrupt or unfair? I wasn't directly quoting you smartass. No I didn't. My only thing is using the argument that the walls we had before like vap are valid still makes confused. The age of being able to stop pokes with vap is over. Or were gonna go right down the line like me and 4f have both stated. Are we going to ban flygon to now. "2hkos vap" 25% of the time without spikes.

 

So we should allow pokemon that 2hko the whole tier because we should deal with it? Isn't the point of the tier discussions to make sure our tiers are balanced and healthy? How is Salamence and TTar healthy if they have so few counters?

All of these bans are based on "perfect prediction" There was an official tourney today btw. imo if that's the case flygon gyardis metagross dnite snorlax should all be up for disxussion. Endure rev heracross and blaziken now op with sandstorm gone. Rain teams now op with sand gone.

Do I need calcs or did I prove my point?

Yes.

[LionKIng]

Did I say corrupt or unfair? No I didn't. My only thing is using the argument that the walls we had before like vap are valid still makes confused. The age of being able to stop pokes with vap is over. Or were gonna go right down the line like me and 4f have both stated. Are we going to ban flygon to now. "2hkos vap" 25% of the time without spikes.

All of these bans are based on "perfect prediction" imo if that's the case flygon gyardis metagross dnite snorlax should all be up for disxussion. Endure rev heracross and blaziken now op with sandstorm gone. Rain teams now op with sand gone.

Do I need calcs or did I prove my point?

Do you even play the game or you just like talking with no back argument to it? or are you the one that likes to be able to sweep a whole team with only 1 DD and 1 flinch..Not because you got lucky and bred a perfect hp fly aero that you have the right to talk out of your ass all the time about stuff you don't understand , stop breeding go learn about comps then come back with some valid arguments and not imaginary stuff you think might be true...seriously at one point i was just like you and i didnt know shitt about nothing and i would just talk and say nothing ...seriously out of all the posters on these kind of threads i have never seen anyone talk so much and say so little.. 

 

TL;DR your hp fly aero is now trash

[DrCraig]

Do you even play the game or you just like talking with no back argument to it? or are you the one that likes to be able to sweep a whole team with only 1 DD and 1 flinch..Not because you got lucky and bred a perfect hp fly aero that you have the right to talk out of your ass all the time about stuff you don't understand , stop breeding go learn about comps then come back with some valid arguments and not imaginary stuff you think might be true...seriously at one point i was just like you and i didnt know shitt about nothing and i would just talk and say nothing ...seriously out of all the posters on these kind of threads i have never seen anyone talk so much and say so little.. 

 

TL;DR your hp fly aero is now trash

Thanks Dad.

[Robofiend]

What was the whole point in adding the split if we're just going to ban everything again? Trio back and ttar and salae banned? Am I the only one that finds it weird? Ttar And sala are banned based on perfect predictions it seems like or am I wrong from what I just read?

 

Actually, after testing/watching matches we realized that neither pokemon required much at all in the way of prediction, and that both could be extremely effective by just spamming a STAB move that hits a large portion of the metagame for great damage. Tyranitar in particular is scary because of its ability to Taunt walls, strip Leftovers recovery and cut target's defense with Crunch 1/5 of the time. Salamence can spam Dragon Claw, which hits most of the metagame for neutral damage. In either case, all you need is a Magneton to beat Skarmory: the only surefire to CB Claw/Crunch spam. 

 

 

All of these bans are based on "perfect prediction" imo if that's the case flygon gyardis metagross dnite snorlax should all be up for disxussion. Endure rev heracross and blaziken now op with sandstorm gone. Rain teams now op with sand gone.

Do I need calcs or did I prove my point?

 

 

Again, we banned these pokemon because you do not need to predict in order to be effective. Remember when we banned Granbull from UU? In that case you did need to predict, and even so an overwhelming number of UU players wanted to see the bull banned because it had so few flaws that it was viable on pretty much any UU team. Similarly, Salamence is bulky enough to switch in multiple times on other CB'ers or common attackers and start running wild with Dragon Claw. 

 

We'll probably end up having to discuss rain teams at some point, but they are nowhere near s broken as they were in 5th gen since rain has to be manually set up. Don't forget that for now we still have Dragonite, who completely nullifies Endrev strategies with Espeed. If you'd like to see Flygon, Snorlax, Dragonite, Metagross or Gyarados banned, be my guest and start a discussion thread. But don't derail this one.

 

Lastly, you do need calcs to prove your point. If you can show that any pokemon can sweep through most of the metagame with only 2 attacks then they will likely get banned, which is why we got rid of Sal/Tyranitar.

[Excelimpulse]

Do you even play the game or you just like talking with no back argument to it? or are you the one that likes to be able to sweep a whole team with only 1 DD and 1 flinch..Not because you got lucky and bred a perfect hp fly aero that you have the right to talk out of your ass all the time about stuff you don't understand , stop breeding go learn about comps then come back with some valid arguments and not imaginary stuff you think might be true...seriously at one point i was just like you and i didnt know shitt about nothing and i would just talk and say nothing ...seriously out of all the posters on these kind of threads i have never seen anyone talk so much and say so little..

TL;DR your hp fly aero is now trash

Warning for taunting. I ask couple questions and get bashed.

[LionKIng]

Warning for taunting. I ask couple questions and get bashed.

I am not a tyranitar to taunt you, also you wouldnt get bashed if you stopped posting irrelevant stuff that derails most threads you post in.  I actually didnt bash you and told you how to improve your arguments.

 

TL;DR stop snitching 


 

[dustybunny]

Warning for taunting. I ask couple questions and get bashed.

In all fairness you were being a smartass to craig when he for once answered something seriously. Also you have to be expecting someone to prove you wrong in this thread cause its clearly OP and if you cant see it then idk whats wrong with you

Edited January 19, 2015 by dustybunny

[Excelimpulse]

In all fairness you were being a smartass to craig when he for once answered something seriously. Also you have to be expecting someone to prove you wrong in this thread cause its clearly OP and if you cant see it then idk whats wrong with you

Everything is op dragonite has more moves then salamenxe hits just as hard and can survive a ice beam. But it's not on the ban list with its brother. Reasoning? And flygon 2hkos and metagross does the same every normal wall with decent prediction like ttar and menxe. Are they going to be banned too? And now that ttar is gone again, does that mean the fire chicken and heracross need to go to now. Because the only poke that stops the endure rev is dnite and arc espeed. if someone argues quick attack I'm out.

Bottom line the same reason 6 months ago tranz lifted the bans was because everything dominoes but now it's not relevant? Ok? Believe what u want everyone. But when 3 months from now we're in the same situation with a whole Iberian tier again don't tell me I'm an idiot again.

And for one I don't use ttar. And if you get swept by dd ttar that's a you problem imo. That's allowing one move for them to set up. Now if your team is weak that does it's job of "sweeping". So if lion king is gonna call me out for being a noon for using its bs. I have one ttar out of 200+ competitive 50s. And it's tyrahboah.

Use your head I shouldn't have to list all these calculations to prove that everything is getting 2hko anymore especially with right predictions which is what you guys are all saying. Did I see a fire punch calculations against swamp or vap? No.

If you guys are gonna give me suggestions. My suggestion to you is to give all the calculations. For example dclaw vrs skar cb. Etc. Because those are situation s that will happen now with a hyper offensive game play. Everything is based on prediction.

Its easy to say that those moves are easily spamable. But what if your oppent predicts right? What if they abuse Salas dclaw against agility gross? Same goes for ttar and down the line.

I don't want to see these bans get out of hand and end up with a whole uber tier.

And btw I wasn't planning on using Sala or ttar. So those arnt my "favorite"pokes. Edited January 19, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[Goldeneyes]

 if someone argues quick attack I'm out.
 

Promise?

 

[spoiler]Reasonably speaking there are holes that quick attack can fill, for instance part of blaziken's moveset is quick attack. And poverty pikachus commonly run quick attack to deal with exactly that brand of sweeper which can be quite common given the proper metagame. Plus if you'll allow me to argue solely the merits of a weak priority move, then mach punch deserves as mention as notable users include Hitmontop(Which may become a reasonable response to certain elements of the metagame) and Breloom(useful for sleeping, though not so much as it has been in the past).  [/spoiler]

Edited January 19, 2015 by Goldeneyes

[dustybunny]

Everything is op dragonite has more moves then salamenxe hits just as hard and can survive a ice beam. But it's not on the ban list with its brother. Reasoning? And flygon 2hkos and metagross does the same every normal wall with decent prediction like ttar and menxe. Are they going to be banned too? And now that ttar is gone again, does that mean the fire chicken and heracross need to go to now. Because the only poke that stops the endure rev is dnite and arc espeed. if someone argues quick attack I'm out.

Bottom line the same reason 6 months ago tranz lifted the bans was because everything dominoes but now it's not relevant? Ok? Believe what u want everyone. But when 3 months from now we're in the same situation with a whole Iberian tier again don't tell me I'm an idiot again.

And for one I don't use ttar. And if you get swept by dd ttar that's a you problem imo. That's allowing one move for them to set up. Now if your team is weak that does it's job of "sweeping". So if lion king is gonna call me out for being a noon for using its bs. I have one ttar out of 200+ competitive 50s. And it's tyrahboah.

Use your head I shouldn't have to list all these calculations to prove that everything is getting 2hko anymore especially with right predictions which is what you guys are all saying. Did I see a fire punch calculations against swamp or vap? No.

If you guys are gonna give me suggestions. My suggestion to you is to give all the calculations. For example dclaw vrs skar cb. Etc. Because those are situation s that will happen now with a hyper offensive game play. Everything is based on prediction.

Its easy to say that those moves are easily spamable. But what if your oppent predicts right? What if they abuse Salas dclaw against agility gross? Same goes for ttar and down the line.

I don't want to see these bans get out of hand and end up with a whole uber tier.

And btw I wasn't planning on using Sala or ttar. So those arnt my "favorite"pokes.

Would like a tl dr from someone, cause I don't feel like picking apart this right now

[DaftCoolio]

dragonite has more moves then salamenxe hits just as hard 

 

i think you will find salamence hits harder

Edited January 19, 2015 by DaftCoolio

[LionKIng]

Everything is op dragonite has more moves then salamenxe hits just as hard and can survive a ice beam. But it's not on the ban list with its brother. Reasoning? And flygon 2hkos and metagross does the same every normal wall with decent prediction like ttar and menxe. Are they going to be banned too? And now that ttar is gone again, does that mean the fire chicken and heracross need to go to now. Because the only poke that stops the endure rev is dnite and arc espeed. if someone argues quick attack I'm out.

 

But quick attack and extremespeed and even fake out are a good way to kill those pokemons =)

Bottom line the same reason 6 months ago tranz lifted the bans was because everything dominoes but now it's not relevant? Ok? Believe what u want everyone. But when 3 months from now we're in the same situation with a whole Iberian tier again don't tell me I'm an idiot again.

 

We will keep calling you what you are untill you change that...

And for one I don't use ttar. And if you get swept by dd ttar that's a you problem imo. That's allowing one move for them to set up. Now if your team is weak that does it's job of "sweeping". So if lion king is gonna call me out for being a noon for using its bs. I have one ttar out of 200+ competitive 50s. And it's tyrahboah.

 

Is this a thread about Xcelimpulse's ttar usage? if you have 50 comps or 200 does not make it rellevant in this thread thank you verymuch(Nobody cares about your comps m8)There is no real counter to Ttar, all you have been saying is Ttar is not too powerfull , go ahead and name me 3 viable counters to ttar?

Use your head I shouldn't have to list all these calculations to prove that everything is getting 2hko anymore especially with right predictions which is what you guys are all saying. Did I see a fire punch calculations against swamp or vap? No.

 

This is what the thread is all about, naming stuff to say or not to say if the pokemon is ban worthy, having said that, its not our fault that you can't understand that and you come here with your claims that ttar isnt too OP but you don't actually come up with reasons besides ''its your fault if your team is not built complety to counter a single pokemon''. How can you make the right predictions when Ttar has so many different viable sets, IT can just DD on a revenge kill to something that doesnt do shitt to him and just sweep your whole team , now if you can't understand that its not my fault. ANd why is calcing FirePunch vs swampert and vaporeon relevant?Did i miss something?

 

If you guys are gonna give me suggestions. My suggestion to you is to give all the calculations. For example dclaw vrs skar cb. Etc. Because those are situation s that will happen now with a hyper offensive game play. Everything is based on prediction.

 

And again, why is calcing D claw on skarm relevant? we all know its not gonna do alot, what we are saying is : You just have to pair Salamence with magneton and you kill all viable steel types. This is why salamence was banned

Its easy to say that those moves are easily spamable. But what if your oppent predicts right? What if they abuse Salas dclaw against agility gross? Same goes for ttar and down the line.

 

And again, its easyly spamable because you can pair it with magneton and kill steel types and then spam d claw to kill everything because nothing else can resist it. See this is why i said you say so many words but they have so little meaning , you said the same exact thing 3 times with different words. You should really work on that ;)

I don't want to see these bans get out of hand and end up with a whole uber tier.

 

Are you on the tier list council? Can you give relevant information to wether a pokemon should be banned or not? if the above 2 questions are NO then what you want is irrelevant because you don't know jack shitt about what we are talking about. If you are so sad about SAla and ttar getting banned, start your own Uber tier and go catch mewtwo and play with it 

And btw I wasn't planning on using Sala or ttar. So those arnt my "favorite"pokes.

 

Ok so now competitive play is based on ''favorite'' and not good team composition? thats new...THIS ISNT A THREAD CALLED WHO'S YOUR FAVORITE POKEMON!! WHY IS SALA AND TTAR NOT BEING YOUR FAVORITE POKEMON EVEN RELEVANT TO THIS THREAD? 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2015 by LionKIng

[DrCraig]

It like arguing with a brick wall.

Let's just stop here and not derail the thread.

Tyranitar is banned.

[DoubleJ]

Everything is op dragonite has more moves then salamenxe hits just as hard and can survive a ice beam. But it's not on the ban list with its brother. Reasoning? And flygon 2hkos and metagross does the same every normal wall with decent prediction like ttar and menxe. Are they going to be banned too? And now that ttar is gone again, does that mean the fire chicken and heracross need to go to now. Because the only poke that stops the endure rev is dnite and arc espeed. if someone argues quick attack I'm out.

Bottom line the same reason 6 months ago tranz lifted the bans was because everything dominoes but now it's not relevant? Ok? Believe what u want everyone. But when 3 months from now we're in the same situation with a whole Iberian tier again don't tell me I'm an idiot again.

And for one I don't use ttar. And if you get swept by dd ttar that's a you problem imo. That's allowing one move for them to set up. Now if your team is weak that does it's job of "sweeping". So if lion king is gonna call me out for being a noon for using its bs. I have one ttar out of 200+ competitive 50s. And it's tyrahboah.

Use your head I shouldn't have to list all these calculations to prove that everything is getting 2hko anymore especially with right predictions which is what you guys are all saying. Did I see a fire punch calculations against swamp or vap? No.

If you guys are gonna give me suggestions. My suggestion to you is to give all the calculations. For example dclaw vrs skar cb. Etc. Because those are situation s that will happen now with a hyper offensive game play. Everything is based on prediction.

Its easy to say that those moves are easily spamable. But what if your oppent predicts right? What if they abuse Salas dclaw against agility gross? Same goes for ttar and down the line.

I don't want to see these bans get out of hand and end up with a whole uber tier.

And btw I wasn't planning on using Sala or ttar. So those arnt my "favorite"pokes.

 

What if they don't ban anything else though? The majority of bans only come at the request of the community. Unfortunately the majority of these "requests" are by players that have difficulty answering these sweepers. Looking at the list of pokes we have left, I don't think any really have the sweeping capability or variability that Mence and Ttar had. Both could run multiple variations on their basic set and be very, very successful. Dragonite seems to be limited to one successful set in the new meta and that's Choice Band, mostly because it is forced out for having a lower end speed. It can't stay in and hit again like Salamence could. Metagross utilizes a primary STAB move that is NVE against common bulky waters, with other moves like EQ, Fire Punch, and Rock Slide handled quite well by other walls. Claydol comes to mind. Blaziken is an interesting pokemon that will have a lot of surprise power for the beginning of this meta, but once again, players will figure out it's many holes and abuse it. And on another note, Slowbro has quickly become a successful answer to many of the aforementioned pokemon with the ability to set-up as well.

 

I feel like the meta is at a better place with Tyranitar and Salamence gone, and at this time I can't think of any reason to ban anything else, at least until a few more officials have been held to see whether there are any easily abused sets.

 

Also, Quick Attack for the win.

 

i think you will find salamence hits harder

 

134 Attack base (Dragonite) vs 135 Attack base (Salamence); Dragonite has a larger movepool with stronger special attacks; Salamence has access to Rock Slide which is no-longer that beneficial in our meta.

 

tl;dr Saying Salamence hits harder isn't really true. The qualities that make Salamence better are it's access to Intimidate (lowers attack power on switch ins) and it's higher base speed.

 

 

EDIT: And to craig, derail a thread that has ran its course? My sides.

Edited January 19, 2015 by DoubleJJ

[DrCraig]

EDIT: And to craig, derail a thread that has ran its course? My sides.

ha... yea.. ha..

[Excelimpulse]

Everything is op dragonite has more moves then salamenxe hits just as hard and can survive a ice beam. But it's not on the ban list with its brother. Reasoning? And flygon 2hkos and metagross does the same every normal wall with decent prediction like ttar and menxe. Are they going to be banned too? And now that ttar is gone again, does that mean the fire chicken and heracross need to go to now. Because the only poke that stops the endure rev is dnite and arc espeed. if someone argues quick attack I'm out.

But quick attack and extremespeed and even fake out are a good way to kill those pokemons =)
Bottom line the same reason 6 months ago tranz lifted the bans was because everything dominoes but now it's not relevant? Ok? Believe what u want everyone. But when 3 months from now we're in the same situation with a whole Iberian tier again don't tell me I'm an idiot again.

We will keep calling you what you are untill you change that...
And for one I don't use ttar. And if you get swept by dd ttar that's a you problem imo. That's allowing one move for them to set up. Now if your team is weak that does it's job of "sweeping". So if lion king is gonna call me out for being a noon for using its bs. I have one ttar out of 200+ competitive 50s. And it's tyrahboah.

Is this a thread about Xcelimpulse's ttar usage? if you have 50 comps or 200 does not make it rellevant in this thread thank you verymuch(Nobody cares about your comps m8)There is no real counter to Ttar, all you have been saying is Ttar is not too powerfull , go ahead and name me 3 viable counters to ttar?
Use your head I shouldn't have to list all these calculations to prove that everything is getting 2hko anymore especially with right predictions which is what you guys are all saying. Did I see a fire punch calculations against swamp or vap? No.

This is what the thread is all about, naming stuff to say or not to say if the pokemon is ban worthy, having said that, its not our fault that you can't understand that and you come here with your claims that ttar isnt too OP but you don't actually come up with reasons besides ''its your fault if your team is not built complety to counter a single pokemon''. How can you make the right predictions when Ttar has so many different viable sets, IT can just DD on a revenge kill to something that doesnt do shitt to him and just sweep your whole team , now if you can't understand that its not my fault. ANd why is calcing FirePunch vs swampert and vaporeon relevant?Did i miss something?

If you guys are gonna give me suggestions. My suggestion to you is to give all the calculations. For example dclaw vrs skar cb. Etc. Because those are situation s that will happen now with a hyper offensive game play. Everything is based on prediction.

And again, why is calcing D claw on skarm relevant? we all know its not gonna do alot, what we are saying is : You just have to pair Salamence with magneton and you kill all viable steel types. This is why salamence was banned
Its easy to say that those moves are easily spamable. But what if your oppent predicts right? What if they abuse Salas dclaw against agility gross? Same goes for ttar and down the line.

And again, its easyly spamable because you can pair it with magneton and kill steel types and then spam d claw to kill everything because nothing else can resist it. See this is why i said you say so many words but they have so little meaning , you said the same exact thing 3 times with different words. You should really work on that ;)

I don't want to see these bans get out of hand and end up with a whole uber tier.

Are you on the tier list council? Can you give relevant information to wether a pokemon should be banned or not? if the above 2 questions are NO then what you want is irrelevant because you don't know jack shitt about what we are talking about. If you are so sad about SAla and ttar getting banned, start your own Uber tier and go catch mewtwo and play with it
And btw I wasn't planning on using Sala or ttar. So those arnt my "favorite"pokes.

Ok so now competitive play is based on ''favorite'' and not good team composition? thats new...THIS ISNT A THREAD CALLED WHO'S YOUR FAVORITE POKEMON!! WHY IS SALA AND TTAR NOT BEING YOUR FAVORITE POKEMON EVEN RELEVANT TO THIS THREAD?

I'm going to choose not to argue with you. You have your views and a lot of people agree with u and that's why we had a whole uber tier the last time.

Like I said give me calculations of what happens when your opponent out plays you. seriously I have never seen a dd ttar sweep a prepaired team in the beginning of a game. I have seen it late game but not in the beginning. But that's what makes it a sweeper.

Prediction is key with all those calculations. But your failing to choose the ones when you pick wrong. The ones when your opponent can flip the tables on it.

If you guys want all these banned but I dknt. I dint want to have to deal with going back to wall and stall. I'd rather try to out think my opponent.

[DaftCoolio]

134 Attack base (Dragonite) vs 135 Attack base (Salamence); 

135>134, mence hits harder, ggnore

[Kiliminati]

I still remember the first time Xcelimpulse posted on the forums, been providing entertainment ever since. Kek

Edited January 19, 2015 by Kiliminati

[DrCraig]

Prediction is key with all those calculations. But your failing to choose the ones when you pick wrong. The ones when your opponent can flip the tables on it.

Why would you calculate bad prediction? ffs bro

[DoubleJ]

I'm going to choose not to argue with you. You have your views and a lot of people agree with u and that's why we had a whole uber tier the last time.

 

If they end up banning a lot of sweepers beyond Tyranitar, then that would be unfortunate. As I see it right now there really isn't much else that is truly ban-worthy. Dragonite is tough, but isn't that tough. Maybe Dugtrio as I view broad-pokemon trapping as uncompetitive.

Like I said give me calculations of what happens when your opponent out plays you. seriously I have never seen a dd ttar sweep a prepaired team in the beginning of a game. I have seen it late game but not in the beginning. But that's what makes it a sweeper.

 

The difficult thing here is that if you bring a team prepared for one major threat, you likely have weaknesses elsewhere. This is a dangerous street to cross and inevitably is the result of the pokemon you are overcompensating for (basis behind centralizing threats).

Prediction is key with all those calculations. But your failing to choose the ones when you pick wrong. The ones when your opponent can flip the tables on it.

 

This meta relies a lot more on prediction yes, but we can't let prediction dictate theory. Better players will find ways of succeeding and that's through prediction. Ban-worthy pokemon even the playing field with good players because even with proper prediction, the ban-worthy pokemon can still be at an advantage.

If you guys want all these banned but I duguu. I dint want to have to deal with going back to wall and stall. I'd rather try to out think my opponent.

 

it's a viable tactic, I mean ask timwaps =)

 

[KingBowser]

Dnite will for sure get banned, wrong thread but w/e.

[DrCraig]

Dnite will for sure get banned, wrong thread but w/e.

Just feeding the fire

[KingBowser]

Just feeding the fire

Yea I know, once dnite gets banned, dug will get banned, then heracross will be next.

[Kiliminati]

Yea I know, once dnite gets banned, dug will get banned, then heracross will be next.

Then Metagross? Then the entire OU meta itself? (No pun intended, :))

[KingBowser]

Then Metagross? Then the entire OU meta itself? (No pun intended, :))

Idk on metagross, maybe, seeing as it pretty difficult to breed hp grass on it.
Personally think dragonite is way scarier than salamence. Dragonite can really take down any poke and gets thunderpunch. Check the calcs on that. Salamence was a decent check to dragonite last update, lost that, and it gets stab physical d-claw. So Idk how you can think this can stay in ou. Then we lost two of our biggest punishers to running a dugtrio, making dugtrio have less consequences for bring it in. Then what the hell is gonna check heracross with no dnite/salamence/dugtrio. Weezing is like gonna be the only legit thing. Im not against these bans, just forewarning what will come. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by KingBowser