[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[OldKeith]

Biggest threat about Dugtrio is it's ability to revenge kill Snorlax, Skarmory, or any pokemon that will be ohko'd by its reversal.

 

Well skarmory is not the best exaple out there mate :D

[Havsha]

Well skarmory is not the best exaple out there mate :D

I meant Blissey u.u well all those walls start looking the same ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Shaniqualela]

Biggest threat about Dugtrio is it's ability to revenge kill Snorlax, Blissey, or any pokemon that will be ohko'd by its reversal.

That's great support for rain teams or special sweepers, but choice band dug can support any team

[bl0nde]

I think it's uncompetitive for reason already mentioned in the thread.

Edited March 16, 2015 by bl0nde

[Gunthug]

It is my opinion that dugtrio has too much influence on team building and on the course of a duel to be considered competitive or healthy.

 

Dugtrio is uncompetitive because of two things:

#1: Dugtrio's ability to outspeed and reversal revenge kill any severely weakned pokemon in the metagame (refer to Note 1) other than the following:

 

Ninjask (base 180 speed)       <- unpopular in OU

electrode (base 140 speed)    <- unpopular in OU

Aerodactyl (base 130 speed)  <- decent in OU

Jolteon (base 130 speed)       <- decent in OU, but you have to have a hidden power. tbolt = 0 dmg.

Crobat (base 130 speed).       <- unpopular but okay in OU

Swellow (base 125)                 <- unpopular rarely used in OU.

 

#2: With the contingency of a correct prediction, Dugtrio can eliminate our primary special defensive walls of the OU tier from the duel regardless of their health through reversal.

 

Note 1: this is a generalized statement. Citing a particular instance does not disprove a generalization.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Below is a lot of text. it's technical analysis of dugtrio in various scenerios and some of the things I have been thinking about. The main points of my post are already summarized above so it's not necessary to read this spoiler.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

[spoiler]

****Snorlax with something like defense curl or curse or growl blissey cannot outstall a dugtrio that has screech. This means that even if you specifically run one of those moves specifically for dugtrio, there is still no guarantee that you will retain your special defensive wall on the field of play. For dugtrio, screech does take up a needed move slot; however, running screech gives extra assurance of being able to eliminate these two primary defense pokemon from the field of play.

Summary of thought: there is never a guarentee your special defense umbreon, snorlax, or blissey is safe when the opposing player is running a dugtrio.

 

From this thought as a team builder, you start to wonder how is the best way to keep your team safe from special attackers?

 

It's true that I am a defensive player, but even so most teams have a defensive core of some sort - even if it's only a 2 or 3 member core. It's undeniable to me that if you lose the ability to depend on snorlax, blissey, and umbreon that you're forced to either use gimicky stuff like a [wish protect hypno] or build a team that uses offensive pivots to absorb special damage.

An example of a team that uses offensive pivots is what raiden uses in open duels lately (sorry raiden I watched you play):

Cloyster 

Espeon  

Jolteon  

Slowbro

Rhydon

Dusclops

 

If you look at this team there's nothing that dugtrio can easily get hold of to revenge kill or reversal on. Maybe espeon, but even so, the special defense on this team is not centered around one pokemon, which is one of the several reason it's pretty successful. It's obviously not designed specifically to beat dugtrio or anything, but I hope you can see what I mean with this example. You have to go outside the box and make something like this in your team design because It's risky to build a core around snorlax or blissey with dugtrio around - that's the kind of influence this one pokemon has on an entire metagame in my eyes.

 

****Some people want to catagorize all of this trapping together. It is all trapping, but I think dugtrio's moveset, speed, and ability make a unique trapper, not a typical one. It should be judged as unique and not simply thrown in with the rest of the trappers. Our typical trappers work with pursuit. You think of things like snorlax and umbreon. It's true that it can be painful to play against a pursuit trapper, but it's not end game and you can play out of it.

 

Example 1 :Starmie can attack umbreon until umbreon has to heal. If you get a good prediction in on when umbreon heals itself, you can safely switch out. It's not the end game for starmie.

 

Example 2: You have gengar out against the opposing players weezing. Since weezing is usually physically defensive, you are predicting your opponent to switch out. For those reasons, you click substitute for your gengar. Then in comes a pursuit snorlax - a trapper. You're not sure if it's a crunch or a trapper so you decide to play it safe and switch out. Snorlax pursuits, hits the sub, and gengar is free to go. This is not end game for gengar.

 

*****In contrast to the above, any time you do not hit dugtrio as dugtrio is switching in on your snorlax, you lose your pokemon. It is end game for your pokemon, period. All it takes is one bad prediction. This isn't the only way dugtrio can get your snorlax/blissey/umbreon either. Think of this scenerio.

Example 3: Your opponent is coming at you with his semi kamakazi special attacker, Exeggutor (Sleep Powder, Sunny Day, Psychic, Solar Beam). So he puts your snorlax to sleep but you take the hits like a boss and then he sleeps the wrong pokemon when you did a double switch. So now you have two choices. Choice #1 kill the egg and make sure it is no threat to your team then let dugtrio revenge kill you. Choice #2 do not kill the egg and let the egg keep hitting you so that you can save your snorlax from being revenge killed by dugtrio. Choices.....choices?

 

*****Spikes take a lot of life out of dugtrio's game but if you play dugtrio in the background cautiously he will still take out the special wall. Once the core of your special defense is gone team, will your team hold up still or has the opponent designed his team to take advantage of you losing your special wall.

 

***** I don't think there should be an answer for every single pokemon out there. However, when it's to the point that you're having to think about redesigning how your team works because of one pokemon, that is getting uncompetitive. As you build your team you look at dugtrio in the tier, and you have to look at the core of your team to see if you can hold up if you lose your snorlax or blissey. You either have to do that, go hyper offensive and not count on defense at all, or build a core that can work around dugtrio so that it's a low risk threat (like the raaidn example I gave). That's a huge amount of influence for ONE pokemon. It's uncompetitive.

[/spoiler]

Ok just a couple of quick things:

 

#1: Dugtrio's ability to outspeed and reversal revenge kill any severely weakned pokemon in the metagame (refer to Note 1) other than the following

 

Ninjask (base 180 speed)       <- unpopular in OU

electrode (base 140 speed)    <- unpopular in OU

Aerodactyl (base 130 speed)  <- decent in OU

Jolteon (base 130 speed)       <- decent in OU, but you have to have a hidden power. tbolt = 0 dmg.

Crobat (base 130 speed).       <- unpopular but okay in OU

Swellow (base 125)                 <- unpopular rarely used in OU.

 

Note 1: this is a generalized statement. Citing a particular instance does not disprove a generalization.

 

 

Uhh, no. That's not a generalized statement. It's an incorrect statement. Huge difference there. A generalization would have been "Dugtrio has the ability to outspeed and reversal revenge kill most severely weakened pokemon in the metagame." But you didn't say MOST, you said ANY, which is just flat out incorrect. In fact, contrary to your note, one single particular instance DOES disprove your statement, because you literally said ANY. I like how you tried to get out in front of your critics, though. This is called "taking the sting on direct" in trial work. The execution was poor, though.

 

 

Next, regarding your spoiler (yes I read it, despite you telling me I didn't have to for some reason - seriously, why even include that?) you are mistaking the word "uncompetitive" for the word "centralizing." Figuring out what each of these words means in the context of our metagame is something you should do immediately, as it'll help your argument a lot. Personally, I think dugtrio is uncompetitive, but I don't know about centralizing.

 

There are a few other things I could pick at in your argument, but I don't think it's worth it, since I'm pretty sure you have my posts blocked anyways. Censorship is a great way to avoid constructive criticism. Keep up the good work

[Gunthug]

I think it's uncompetitive for reason already mentioned in the thread.

Aww, cmon

 

well, I feel obligated to point out that your edited post doesn't contribute enough to the discussion to warrant a spot here, and should be deleted. Your original post was fine, though, if not a little flawed. But that's what we do here - we discuss things. We debate things. If you can't handle it, then I don't know what to tell you

Edited March 16, 2015 by Gunthug

[bl0nde]

I like how you tried to get out in front of your critics,

 

I honestly was not trying to get in front of/draw attention to myself for anyone who would prefer to be critical of me, That's not why I put that red note there or my post in this thread.

 

When I started writing, my intention was to simply put my opinion without critiquing anyone else.I did not quote anyone. I did not even read any other posts except the OP. My intention was to be professional and get my numbers up there because I know readers like to see the data.

 

However, I figured I had messed up, so I put that "it was just a generalized statement." At the time, this was my way of saying I am hoping you get the idea of what I am trying to say.

 

You're right that I could have worded it better and you're right, I did make mistakes (one being I didn't mention priority users as well). Looking back, it would have sufficed to simply say something along the lines of "dugtrio is an amazing revenge killer".

 

I am actually a simple girl. Ddespite me getting emotional all the time, I'm really not actually spending time on here trying to figure out "how to get in front of people who are critical of me." Doing that would make me a troll on these forums. I am not a troll; however, my opinion of you is that you are one.

 

"Next, regarding your spoiler (yes I read it, despite you telling me I didn't have to for some reason - seriously, why even include that?) you are mistaking the word "uncompetitive" for the word "centralizing." Figuring out what each of these words means in the context of our metagame is something you should do immediately, as it'll help your argument a lot"

 

My reasoning for putting that you didn't have to read what was in the spoiler because I wanted to emphasis that basically all I wanted to say was bolded and everything else I wrote was sort of derived from those thoughts. I know people arn't always in the mood to read a long post (myself included). To anyone who was just skimming or speed reading I figured it would save them time. That is my reasoning for putting that, and I don't think it's your place to question the necessity or reasoning for why I choose to write what I write unless you are a moderator of competition alley.

 

As far as me using the word uncompetitive incorrectly: I'm not sure what jargon is used in pokemon games honestly so you're right. I have sincerely tried at times when I read to catch on to the lingo. I also I did try to find the definitions and rules of what makes a pokemon uncompetitive before I began writing my post in this thread, but I could not find the post in my searches.I figured it would have helped me be more clear, but that is somewhat irrelevant.

 

After reading it a few times my opinion is that if you really had to respond to my post (for the 37th time) and you really had to help me, a better way to have spent your time and mine would have been to simply type out what each word means in current pokemon jargon as opposed to doing what you did - which was typing out a paragraph of what word in my essay is not synonymous with current pokemon lingo then telling me to go figure it out.

 

Regardless of the method of delivery, thank you for the ever faithful public delivery of pokemon knowledge and writing advice, gunthug. Now if you could just help me figure out how to retire by the time I'm 35 I might even kiss you.

 

-Jenna

[Gunthug]

I honestly was not trying to get in front of/draw attention to myself for anyone who would prefer to be critical of me, That's not why I put that red note there or my post in this thread.

 

When I started writing, my intention was to simply put my opinion without critiquing anyone else.I did not quote anyone. I did not even read any other posts except the OP. My intention was to be professional and get my numbers up there because I know readers like to see the data.

 

However, I figured I had messed up, so I put that "it was just a generalized statement." At the time, this was my way of saying I am hoping you get the idea of what I am trying to say.

 

You're right that I could have worded it better and you're right, I did make mistakes (one being I didn't mention priority users as well). Looking back, it would have sufficed to simply say something along the lines of "dugtrio is an amazing revenge killer".

 

I am actually a simple girl. Ddespite me getting emotional all the time, I'm really not actually spending time on here trying to figure out "how to get in front of people who are critical of me." Doing that would make me a troll on these forums. I am not a troll; however, my opinion of you is that you are one.

 

"Next, regarding your spoiler (yes I read it, despite you telling me I didn't have to for some reason - seriously, why even include that?) you are mistaking the word "uncompetitive" for the word "centralizing." Figuring out what each of these words means in the context of our metagame is something you should do immediately, as it'll help your argument a lot"

 

My reasoning for putting that you didn't have to read what was in the spoiler because I wanted to emphasis that basically all I wanted to say was bolded and everything else I wrote was sort of derived from those thoughts. I know people arn't always in the mood to read a long post (myself included). To anyone who was just skimming or speed reading I figured it would save them time. That is my reasoning for putting that, and I don't think it's your place to question the necessity or reasoning for why I choose to write what I write unless you are a moderator of competition alley.

 

As far as me using the word uncompetitive incorrectly: I'm not sure what jargon is used in pokemon games honestly so you're right. I have sincerely tried at times when I read to catch on to the lingo. I also I did try to find the definitions and rules of what makes a pokemon uncompetitive before I began writing my post in this thread, but I could not find the post in my searches.I figured it would have helped me be more clear, but that is somewhat irrelevant.

 

After reading it a few times my opinion is that if you really had to respond to my post (for the 37th time) and you really had to help me, a better way to have spent your time and mine would have been to simply type out what each word means in current pokemon jargon as opposed to doing what you did - which was typing out a paragraph of what word in my essay is not synonymous with current pokemon lingo then telling me to go figure it out.

 

Regardless of the method of delivery, thank you for the ever faithful public delivery of pokemon knowledge and writing advice, gunthug. Now if you could just help me figure out how to retire by the time I'm 35 I might even kiss you.

 

-Jenna

First, I was not being snide or sarcastic when I mentioned you trying to get out in front of your critics. That is a completely legitimate strategy, as I mentioned, and doing so does not make you a troll. Rambling on with a 700 word emotion-laced essay every time someone responds negatively to one of your post also doesn't make you a troll - but it makes you completely useless to this discussion. I didn't strike down your "generalization" statement to make a fool of you - it was flat out wrong, and misleading, and damaging to the discussion. The difference between "dugtrio can revenge kill any pokemon except for these 5" and "dugtrio can revenge kill most pokemon" is huge in the context of a possible dugtrio ban, I'm sure I don't have to explain why. So though you've convinced yourself that I'm just a big bad troll, I'm just here doing the same thing everyone else is (except for you): critiquing arguments on the dugtrio ban.

 

I'm not sure why you think this would be considered a good thing:

 

'When I started writing, my intention was to simply put my opinion without critiquing anyone else.I did not quote anyone. I did not even read any other posts except the OP. My intention was to be professional and get my numbers up there because I know readers like to see the data.'

 

Guess what? It's not a good thing. Ignoring the other posts in this thread is just lazy, it doesn't bolster your argument to make it in a vacuum. You act like critiquing other people's arguments is somehow rude - Blonde, this is a damn competitive discussion. Thats how this works. Once again, ignoring everyone elses opinions isn't professional, it's unprofessional

 

Regarding your lack of knowledge on terminology,

 

and I don't think it's your place to question the necessity or reasoning for why I choose to write what I write unless you are a moderator of competition alley

As I'm not a moderator of competition alley, it's not my job to educate you on basic tiering terminology. Though it's probably not the moderator's job either. It's your job, if you want to be a respected member of these discussions. Hey, there's a guide by senile in the guide tavern called "tiering and you" that you should definitely check out, though.

 

It's nice to see that you actually responded to my criticism, though - I certainly didn't expect it after you deleted your whole post because it had one or two mistakes in it

[fredrichnietze]

As I'm not a moderator of competition alley, it's not my job to educate you on basic tiering terminology. Though it's probably not the moderator's job either. It's your job, if you want to be a respected member of these discussions. Hey, there's a guide by senile in the guide tavern called "tiering and you" that you should definitely check out, though.

i think it's the ou councils job actually as this is a ou discussion, but 

[spoiler]

[spoiler]

i havent actually read the last 2 pages of you guys arguing i just saw the quoted section, also i dont have much of a opinion on dug. 

[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[karimologia]

I think it's uncompetitive for reason already mentioned in the thread.

Uncompetitive is to play with 6 walls, dugtrio is not that OP, it is a good threat for those who play "defensively" like you,

Edited March 16, 2015 by karimologia

[bl0nde]

Uncompetitive is to play with 6 walls, dugtrio is not that OP, it is a good threat for those who play "defensively" like you,

"Uncompetitive is to play with 6 walls"

In one hand, gunthug wants to critique my usage of the word uncompetitive, but won't tell me the definition of it. Karimologia, in contrast, seems to have the short and simple definition to decipher the jargon for readers. Thank you for that clarification.

 

"dugtrio is a good threat for those who play "defensively" like you"

I agree completely. However, I'd go further and say dugtrio is a threat to keep in mind for any team design regardless of how it is offensively or defensively balanced. My example of this statement is the team I have been using for the last two weeks only has one special tank:

[spoiler]252 hp 252 atk adamant snorlax.

[/spoiler]

If dugtrio gets good prediction and snorlax is gone then the problem is actually worse for this offensive team than my defensive one. This is because if a fast special sweeper gets the jump on me on a double switch or something, I don't have anything left that can sponge the hits well.

 

Anyway, if anyone has reasoning or can refer to to a post explaining why dugtrio is healthy or fun to play with in our metagame, I would like to read that reasoning because it might change my opinion on the subject.

[Gunthug]

"Uncompetitive is to play with 6 walls"
In one hand, gunthug wants to critique my usage of the word uncompetitive, but won't tell me the definition of it. Karimologia, in contrast, seems to have the short and simple definition to decipher the jargon for readers. Thank you for that clarification.

"dugtrio is a good threat for those who play "defensively" like you"
I agree completely. However, I'd go further and say dugtrio is a threat to keep in mind for any team design regardless of how it is offensively or defensively balanced. My example of this statement is the team I have been using for the last two weeks only has one special tank:
[spoiler]252 hp 252 atk adamant snorlax.

[/spoiler]
If dugtrio gets good prediction and snorlax is gone then the problem is actually worse for this offensive team than my defensive one. This is because if a fast special sweeper gets the jump on me on a double switch or something, I don't have anything left that can sponge the hits well.

Anyway, if anyone has reasoning or can refer to to a post explaining why dugtrio is healthy or fun to play with in our metagame, I would like to read that reasoning because it might change my opinion on the subject.

Actually what Karim gave was an example of uncompetitive, not a definition. Also, it was an incorrect example. But you seem determined to paint me as the bad guy so not much I can do there

Here's a quick summary (a more comprehensive explanation of the terms can be found in seniles guide which, regardless of your attitude towards him, is a fantastic guide for anyone to be familiar with)

Uncompetitive means you are taking autonomy away from your opponent. Arena trap is a good example of this, as grounded Pokemon can't switch vs an arena trap user. If you're running a bliss w/o hail against a subversal dug, your bliss is gone, period. There's notbing you can do about it. Similarly, wobbuffet is pretty uncompetitive, as you can't switch out against it no matter who you are (unless you're another shadow tag user, in some gens). Once again, notice how these things I've described take autonomy (the ability to decide) away from your opponent. Compare it to pursuit trapping, to which you've already given an example. A starmie can stay in on a pursuit trapper and simply keep attacking, or it can switch and risk the kill. But there's still a choice.

Centralizing, on the other hand, can be defined pretty well by this quote from your original, abandoned argument:

"However, when it's to the point that you're having to think about redesigning how your team works because of one pokemon, that is getting uncompetitive."

A Pokemon is centralizing when the meta is CENTERED around it. Take curselax from before CB was introduced for example. When you designed your team, you either included one or two answers to that particular set, or you lost - simple as that. Centralizing has nothing to do with uncompetitive, though the two can be omnipresent

Remember that a Pokemon that is uncompetitive isn't automatically ban worthy, and a Pokemon that is centralizing isn't automatically ban worthy either. Magneton is an example of a sometimes uncompetitive Pokemon, and even smaller examples of uncompetitive gameplay are parahax, freezes, etc. some of these are unavoidable, bevause at the end of the day, this is Pokemon. Removing every uncompetitive aspect would result in a different game altogether. Similarly, certain Pokemon will always be centralizing to some degree - even now, snorlax is still relatively centralizing, given it's incredibly high usage.

[Senile]

Anyway, if anyone has reasoning or can refer to to a post explaining why dugtrio is healthy or fun to play with in our metagame, I would like to read that reasoning because it might change my opinion on the subject.

We don't have to prove something is healthy or "fun to play", hue. Things aren't banned for being "unfun", if it was that simple a lot of things would be banned, hue.

 

As for healthiness...I don't see how you could argue dugtrio is unhealthy. It's uncompetitive, and whether or not it's uncompetitive enough to be banworthy is up in the air. But it's not at all unhealthy; It doesn't significantly constrict the construction of teams in any way. Sure, it fucks up special walls like Blissey and Snorlax, but those pokemon still have absurdly high usage, so it obviously isn't having an unhealthy affect on team composition.

[Excelimpulse]

What changed that makes dugtrio not ban worthy now but 4 months ago???

[Senile]

What changed that makes dugtrio not ban worthy now but 4 months ago???

Special attacking teams aren't as effective as they used to be, Physical attacking teams are both safer and more effective, Snorlax gets whirlwind.

[OldKeith]

Special attacking teams aren't as effective as they used to be, Physical attacking teams are both safer and more effective, Snorlax gets whirlwind.

 

+ Dugtrio can now be revenge killed with pursuit.

[Excelimpulse]

Special attacking teams aren't as effective as they used to be, Physical attacking teams are both safer and more effective, Snorlax gets whirlwind.

So because the meta shifts because pkaystyles changed that warrants bans? I'm confused. I thought that dugtrio was banned because what it could sweep through a team? What changed that?

trio getting pursuited is risky due to rock slide and aerial ace possibilities. So I don't see that as an answer either. Sorry

[ShucklePwnz]

So because the meta shifts because pkaystyles changed that warrants bans? I'm confused. I thought that dugtrio was banned because what it could sweep through a team? What changed that?

trio getting pursuited is risky due to rock slide and aerial ace possibilities. So I don't see that as an answer either. Sorry

Dugtrio wasnt banned because it sweeps teams, but because it killed the two most important Special walls we have with little effort, so Special Attackers could sweep with ease.

Edited March 16, 2015 by ShucklePwnz

[Senile]

So because the meta shifts because pkaystyles changed that warrants bans? I'm confused. I thought that dugtrio was banned because what it could sweep through a team? What changed that?
trio getting pursuited is risky due to rock slide and aerial ace possibilities. So I don't see that as an answer either. Sorry

There has never, ever been a time where Dugtrio could sweep a team, hue

[Excelimpulse]

Dugtrio wasnt banned because it sweeps teams, but because it killed the two most important Special walls we have with little effort, so Special Attackers could sweep with ease.

Okay still doesn't help my confusion. It still does that. But just because most people hit hard physically doesn't mean you couldn't still sweep with special of you remove the walls. Again what changed? Just because it isn't used that much now?

[PandaJJ]

So because the meta shifts because pkaystyles changed that warrants bans?

 

Not playstyle, but actual moves etc. (special/physial split) in the meta has changed to make dugtrio less of a problem.

 

I'm confused.

 

Have you tried hitting yourself?

 

I thought that dugtrio was banned because what it could sweep through a team?

 

No, it wasn't.

 

What changed that?

 

Nothing. It still isn't.

 

trio getting pursuited is risky due to rock slide and aerial ace possibilities. So I don't see that as an answer either. Sorry

 

Dugtrio has arena trap. It only ever switches in if it can kill whatever is on your side of the field. Which means that whenever that is dead, you get a free switch in. At at that point, dugtrio will be in one of the following situations:

 

1. Locked into a move with cb. If you switch in something with pursuit that resists the move, you can hurt it. Aerodactyl resists AA, heracross resists RS. Aerodactyl is even faster, so it doesn't matter if you are locked into anything.

 

2. Dugtrio is at 1 hp because it subbed/endured. You can either pursuit trap with aero, switch in something that walls it and let it die to spikes, or hope that it doesn't have AA (it has bad coverage if it's a reversal set) and pursuit trap with heracross.

 

Edit: I derped, heracross doesn't resist RS lol.

Edited March 16, 2015 by PandaJJ

[ShucklePwnz]

Okay still doesn't help my confusion. It still does that. But just because most people hit hard physically doesn't mean you couldn't still sweep with special of you remove the walls. Again what changed? Just because it isn't used that much now?

Some of the things that have changed is that Snorlax, by far the most popular Special Wall may now carry Whirlwind, so if you bring a Reversal Dugtrio there is a chance you have a deadweight pokémon.

Even if you kill the special wall of your opponent, there are still common pokémons who can stop some special attackers, Metagross can Pursuit trap Starmie, Aero can also do that if its weakened, Swampert can stop Jolteon if no HP Grass, and now Gyarados may be very Dangerous with the free switch in on Dugtrio after it kills something, as if you are running ReversalTrio you're most likely not running many Gyarados counters.

 

So because these reasons(I'm sure there is more) ReversalTrio+Special Attackers have much less chance of being successfull.

Edited March 16, 2015 by ShucklePwnz

[Excelimpulse]

Not playstyle, but actual moves etc. (special/physial split) in the meta has changed to make dugtrio less of a problem.


Have you tried hitting yourself?


No, it wasn't.


Nothing. It still isn't.


Dugtrio has arena trap. It only ever switches in if it can kill whatever is on your side of the field. Which means that whenever that is dead, you get a free switch in. At at that point, dugtrio will be in one of the following situations:

1. Locked into a move with cb. If you switch in something with pursuit that resists the move, you can hurt it. Aerodactyl resists AA, heracross resists RS. Aerodactyl is even faster, so it doesn't matter if you are locked into anything.

2. Dugtrio is at 1 hp because it subbed/endured. You can either pursuit trap with aero, switch in something that walls it and let it die to spikes, or hope that it doesn't have AA (it has bad coverage if it's a reversal set) and pursuit trap with heracross.

Edit: I derped, heracross doesn't resist RS lol.

Changed in moves has no effect on trio. It changed the punches and that's basically it. Waterfall and kingdra. Let's be honest.

And the other ones I'm not answering because that just seems like a troll.

And the last what if aero pursuits and doesn't kill trio when it decides to stay in? And who says it has to banded?

[bl0nde]

Actually what Karim gave was an example of uncompetitive, not a definition. Also, it was an incorrect example.

What I wrote was a joke/sarcasm.

 

We don't have to prove

Things aren't banned for being "unfun".

 

You are implying things I did not write. I didn't type "prove this". I did not type "The tiering process decisions are decided based on what is fun or not fun". That would be a horrible thing to write because fun is subjective.

 

All I meant was I'm interested in reading people's reasoning who think dugtrio should stay in OU. I meant nothing more and nothing less.

 

Whirlwind snorlax is a good idea. +1 for the thought.

[PandaJJ]

Changed in moves has no effect on trio. It changed the punches and that's basically it. Waterfall and kingdra. Let's be honest.

 

Of course it has. All the pokemon we now see with pursuit would not carry pursuit without the split.

 

And the last what if aero pursuits and doesn't kill trio when it decides to stay in? And who says it has to banded?

 

Pretty sure if you read my comment I said it is EITHER banded OR reversal set. And I explained how to deal with both. You are right about pursuit though, it doesn't kill if you stay. On the other hand, I did also mention you should only switch in aerodactyl if it is locked into a move you resist (EQ or AA for instance), which means it doesn't matter if dugtrio switches or not.