[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[RysPicz]

Good shit I saved both of my Dugtrios (one has Tranz OT lmao). Well, time to piss off some people on tournaments I guess! :v) I'll come back here with my results after using it several times, I should have a pretty viable team where Dug might be a good help.

 

E:

unintended page king but still, praise me

Edited January 29, 2015 by RysPicz

[bl0nde]

The meta is a lot more tank oriented, and less wall oriented now.

What is your definition of those two words? You consider tank something like snorlax that can do damage back, where a wall is just more closer to pure stall?

 

a lot of times people throw the word wall around so much that it can even mean something that is just absorbing blows and is not necessarily even purely defensively trained: "that poke keeps walling me".

 

edit: riga was not sassing u, just asked a Q. ty for answers.

Edited January 29, 2015 by bl0nde

[DrCraig]

What is your definition of those two words? You consider tank something like snorlax that can do damage back, where a wall is just more closer to pure stall?

 

a lot of times people throw the word wall around so much that it can even mean something that is just absorbing blows and is not necessarily even purely defensively trained: "that poke keeps walling me".

A Tank is not wall.

 

You don't have to overanalyze his sentence.

Dragonite is a bulky attacker = Tank

Metagross is a bulky attacker = Tank

Swampert should be a = Tank

Blissey can't deal any significant damage = Wall

Forretress = Wall

 

Etc.

 

Don't be critical on individual words in sentences that have little weight in the discussion...

[ThinkNice]

What is your definition of those two words? You consider tank something like snorlax that can do damage back, where a wall is just more closer to pure stall?

 

a lot of times people throw the word wall around so much that it can even mean something that is just absorbing blows and is not necessarily even purely defensively trained: "that poke keeps walling me".

Yeah the definition of tank (at least in Pokemon) is a Pokemon that can threaten out Pokémon by their damage output and not because its useless attacking them (Starmie vs Blissey, Blissey can't really do anything back but its useless for Starmie to stay in. Making Blissey a wall and Snorlax a tank).

[Rigamorty]

What is your definition of those two words? You consider tank something like snorlax that can do damage back, where a wall is just more closer to pure stall?

 

a lot of times people throw the word wall around so much that it can even mean something that is just absorbing blows and is not necessarily even purely defensively trained: "that poke keeps walling me".

 

edit: riga was not sassing u, just asked a Q. ty for answers.

Pretty much what the other two before me said.

And it can be seen very clearly in the fact that Vaporeon eats ass now, and Blissey isn't that great either.

[Robofiend]

Here's the real thing: there aren't many great special attackers for Subtrio teams to take advantage of. Jolteon is becoming way more popular, but has more solid counters due to its lack of good coverage moves. I will say that the Sub/Swagger set is starting to seem like a problem, however. Nonetheless, Ludicolo, Lanturn, Swampert and Porygon 2 all have great strengths against bolt beam pokes (like Jolteon or Magneton) and often provide more defense against walls like Skarmory than Snorlax does, while also providing some nifty functionality against Dugtrio (shouts out to trapping CB Dugtrio with Porygon and Ludicolo being able to set up rain and start a sweep while Dugtrio tries to sub up). 

 

All of this is on the side, of course, but it helps my main argument - that Dugtrio isn't really banworthy unless it's as centralizing as it was last year around this time. The CB set is usable for picking off a sweeper or two on a revenge kill, but its lack of defenses makes it even more questionable in a "bulky offense" metagame (which seems to be what we're evolving toward). Oh yeah, and the inherent uncompetitivity of trapping really isn't a big deal as long as you don't have things that are uncompetitive and totally cancerous running amok (i.e. 3rd gen Wobbufett, M-Gengar, etc.)

[codylramey]

I red the first half of the convo and skipped the second so forgive me if something i say is redundant.

 

I noticed that there was a lot of convo about his spcl wall trapping capability. Senile listed off a team option and a few spcl attackers that could take advantage of the other team losing their spcl wall while arguing against that ban. Something i did not see mentioned is Rain Dance. dugtrio can be a godsend on a rain team. Being able to take out their spcl wall then sending out the rain can be detrimental to any team that doesnt have a vaporeon. You can build a solid team around this concept too. Ludicolo can even server as a rain sweeper/piviot poke throughout the match.

 

With that being said all we can do is speculate atm. As much as i hate trapping i still say lets w8 n see. If he is as broken as ppl think he is he will eventually rear his ugly lil head in the top of the usage stats. 

[Linken]

Yeah the definition of tank (at least in Pokemon) is a Pokemon that can threaten out Pokémon by their damage output and not because its useless attacking them (Starmie vs Blissey, Blissey can't really do anything back but its useless for Starmie to stay in. Making Blissey a wall and Snorlax a tank).

cm bliss thunderbolt would hurt starmie alot actually... ^^

[Leandro]

ban ban ban

[Vaeldras]

Well it's definitely not broken, nor as relevant as it used to be.

It is uncompetitive, no doubt, but so are a lot of other things (mechanics mainly).

It really isn't fun to use or luck based though, you just send it to revenge kill stuff and that's it.

The only positive thing about dugtrio is that you can easily get a good one, since it doesn't really need defenses.

We'd be better without it, but there's no hurry.

[Shaniqualela]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ovZ8yzOi3sg

Perfect example of dugtrios power

[Rigamorty]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ovZ8yzOi3sg

Perfect example of dugtrios power

banned under the support characteristic on account of being a solid cheerleader.

[BurntZebra]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ovZ8yzOi3sg

Perfect example of dugtrios power

dugtrio didn't even do anything though?

[DoubleJ]

dugtrio didn't even do anything though?

 

Exactly. It doesn't have to.

[BurntZebra]

Exactly. It doesn't have to.

well I wasn't listening to the audio, I imagine it had some fear factor but that only applies in environments with team preview and guess what? we don't

[DoubleJ]

Meh show it once and it has the same effect. We do have pursuit to so this is nice to knock it back a bit.

[YagamiNoir]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ovZ8yzOi3sg

Perfect example of dugtrios power

Trapping with TP is different with trapping without TP. (Team Preview). If you're going to be overly paranoid, you might as well ditch the legit physical Attackers like Metagross and Heracross simply because they can be prone to revenge killing by Dugtrio, or literally not send them out even in crucial moments until you scout his entire team first. On the other hand, this meta doesn't know what's gonna go on in a match, so Dugtrio is admittedly more effective because there's no dead giveaway that your grounded Pokemon is about to die. 

 

 

Meh show it once and it has the same effect. We do have pursuit to so this is nice to knock it back a bit.

I don't really get it, but if you're saying Arena Trap balances Pursuit, that's...wrong. If you're saying that the fact we have effective users of Pursuit makes Arena Trap not as different as you think, you're kinda comparing an at best 160 BP move (during SE) in comparison to a either a STAB CB EQ, Rock Slide, Aerial Ace, or even non CB 200 BP Reversal of choice that checkmates something with no chance of it to switch out. That, and what does Pursuit kill and what does Dugtrio kill? Starmie for the former at best in a reliable way, and Special Walls, two common physical attackers, and anything vulnerable enough so long as it is touching the ground. Pursuit has diminished the viability of stuff like Starmie, but there are good stuff in the tier, say Heracross/Metagross, that are running wild but are vulnerable to the three headed mole. This doesn't necessarily mean that Pursuit is more influential than AT is -- it evidences that there are more uses for Arena Trap than Pursuit. 

 

The physical power Spike made the whole "TrioTrap + Special Attacker = shrekt team" thing diminish, but let's not pretend it still doesn't have it's reliable stuff to trap. 

Edited March 14, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[OldKeith]

I think he means that you can pursuit a Dugtrio, so that you can revenge kill it.

[YagamiNoir]

I think he means that you can pursuit a Dugtrio, so that you can revenge kill it.

That's pretty dependent. Metagross is likelier to be a target for Dugtrio than the other way around. I suppose stuff like Dodrio against a Dugtrio locked into Earthquake and stuff could work. Most of our major ranked Pursuit users don't do that though. This is also less relevant against Reversal sets. 

 

EDIT: Actually, name me one Pursuit user apart from Dodrio that reliably checks this thing after a kill. 

Edited March 14, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[ThinkNice]

That's pretty dependent. Metagross is likelier to be a target for Dugtrio than the other way around. I suppose stuff like Dodrio against a Dugtrio locked into Earthquake and stuff could work. Most of our major ranked Pursuit users don't do that though. This is also less relevant against Reversal sets. 
 
EDIT: Actually, name me one Pursuit user apart from Dodrio that reliably checks this thing after a kill.

Tauros and Heracross on the Banded set. I think Hera can take a set up Reversal Trio too.

[BurntZebra]

That's pretty dependent. Metagross is likelier to be a target for Dugtrio than the other way around. I suppose stuff like Dodrio against a Dugtrio locked into Earthquake and stuff could work. Most of our major ranked Pursuit users don't do that though. This is also less relevant against Reversal sets. 

 

EDIT: Actually, name me one Pursuit user apart from Dodrio that reliably checks this thing after a kill. 

Aerodactyl? 

[YagamiNoir]

Tauros and Heracross on the Banded set. I think Hera can take a set up Reversal Trio too.

When I say reliable I do mean something that doesn't have crappy 1.42% usage. I also do think that Heracross is more revenge killed by Dugtrio rather than the other way. So they trap each other depending on the situation. Two Earthquakes or Rock Slides still won't leave heavy memories if Dugtrio decides to stay in though. 

 

Aerodactyl? 

Welp, touche. 

[OldKeith]

Skarmory too.

 

Edit: Sceptile?

Edited March 14, 2015 by OldKeith

[DoubleJ]

Ya you guys got what I meant. Dug doesn't ohko most of the bulky phys hitters and will rely on simply switching out until it can kill. This is when you pursuit it. Opportunities to do so are slim but the threat is still prevalent.

[Havsha]

Biggest threat about Dugtrio is it's ability to revenge kill Snorlax, Blissey, or any pokemon that will be ohko'd by its reversal.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Havsha