[OU Discussion] Dugtrio

[Senile]

What I wrote was a joke/sarcasm.
 

 
You are implying things I did not write. I didn't type "prove this". I did not type "The tiering process decisions are decided based on what is fun or not fun". That would be a horrible thing to write because fun is subjective.
 
All I meant was I'm interested in reading people's reasoning who think dugtrio should stay in OU. I meant nothing more and nothing less.
 
Whirlwind snorlax is a good idea. +1 for the thought.

If you're not interested in discussing the tiering of Dugtrio, then your posts don't belong in this thread, they'll just derail it, as you can see. If you want to know the reasoning for it staying, then the reasoning is that it's not banworthy. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want more specific reasoning, then read through the thread, you said yourself you didn't bother doing so. We aren't here to explain things to you, especially if you openly admit to not having looked at the other posts. It'd be one thing to be confused after reading the discussion and asking for details, but it's unacceptable to openly state that you didn't bother reading a discussion, then derailing it with non-tiering related questions because you want things in a nice little bundle.

[Gunthug]

What I wrote was a joke/sarcasm

Uh, ok? Did you read the rest of my post? Because I typed up several paragraphs sincerely explaining those terms that you were too lazy to look up yourself. And you say I'm the troll...

[codylramey]

Anywho spcl teams are still just as powerful as they were b4 are they not? A lil damage on common threats (like metagross) here and there and dugtrio kill the spcl wall and you are golden. Unless they are carrying 2 spcl walls in which case you are screwed just like you were against teams with 2 spcl walls b4.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Darkshade
Removed off topic insults

[OldKeith]

I think we should stop derailing and get to the point everyone wants to know about: will Gunthug and Blonde ever admit they are a couple, or will this be kept a secret even longer?

[bl0nde]

ok, I read all the post in the thread.

What happened for me in my initial post was I feel like I am familiar enough with the moveset of the snorlax and the blissey to not need to go down their list of moves in the pokedex. Maybe some of you feel this way at times? I had also been watching duels for about 2 weeks and seeing encounters between duggy and the special walls. With those two things I felt knowledgeable enough to write an opinion in this thread.

 

These assumptions lead me to make a mistake: oddly, phazing with the special wall never crossed my mind for some reason. Maybe I was too focused on the builds I wanted to do or something. If I would have seen that tactic in spectating recently or read some certain post in this thread I would have noticed that. Since there is the work arounds for dugger, it leads me to change my opinion on the duggy and I am understanding where you guys are coming from in your decisions in this thread.

 

ok ty.

Edited March 17, 2015 by bl0nde

[DrCraig]

Can we discuss constructively rather than shove each others position down each others throat?

[fredrichnietze]

Can we discuss constructively rather than shove each others position down each others throat?

^this

 

lets make a list of what can special wall in ou and what of these walls are trapped by dugtrio. 

[spoiler]

and by lets make a list i dont mean just me as i work in the morning

[/spoiler]

[Gunthug]

^this

 

lets make a list of what can special wall in ou and what of these walls are trapped by dugtrio. 

[spoiler]

and by lets make a list i dont mean just me as i work in the morning

[/spoiler]

 

^this

 

lets make a list of what can special wall in ou and what of these walls are trapped by dugtrio. 

[spoiler]

and by lets make a list i dont mean just me as i work in the morning

[/spoiler]

but ur lists are the best, fred

[bl0nde]

I played 12 duels today. Every snorlax (4) I saw had whirlwind in the moveset. I'm not implying anything just putting small sample data out. Imply what you want.

 

[codylramey]

I played 12 duels today. Every snorlax (4) I saw had whirlwind in the moveset. I'm not implying anything just putting small sample data out. Imply what you want.

WW is far inferior to curse imo. With WW all he can do is wall spcl, deal some damage, and phase. With curse he cant phase but with some boosts he becomes a deadly sweeper who cant be broken w/o crit.

[OldKeith]

Well, the WW set just has a different purpose. It works great with spikes. It can be op too.

[DrCraig]

So after watching the tournament today I think we can all agree Dugtrio, mostly CB Trio, is uncompetitive and stupid. Why is this allowed?

Edit: mostly the stupid part

Edited March 22, 2015 by DrCraig

[Quint]

So after watching the tournament today I think we can all agree Dugtrio, mostly CB Trio, is uncompetitive and stupid. Why is this allowed?

Edit: mostly the stupid part

 

So after watching the spring championship qualifier how far are we with this discussion.

[Robofiend]

So after watching the tournament today I think we can all agree Dugtrio, mostly CB Trio, is uncompetitive and stupid. Why is this allowed?

Edit: mostly the stupid part

 

Can you explain what happened? I've always thought CB Trio is pretty reasonable compared to the Sub variant.

[DrCraig]

Can you explain what happened? I've always thought CB Trio is pretty reasonable compared to the Sub variant.

I couldn't watch today's because I was busy irl today but basically. CB Jolly/Adamant Dugtrio is a killer. Force a lax to rest, it's dead. 2hkos blissey. 12.5% to ohko arc. Kills metagross. Etc. Through the means of EQ, Rock Slide, Aerial Ace and a filler Dugtrio can effectively guarantee a revenge kill or come in on a nice predict. The ability to trap and get a guaranteed kill should not be allowed. Dugtrio support is too strong. Same case for wynaut.

Edit: Basically, in comparison with the Sub reversal set, CB Dugtrio has much more coverage and is limited a lot less. CB has more longevity as opposed to the Sub variat and can hang around slowly picking off pokemon through trapping and destroying. I think CB is equal in power, if not strong than the Sub set. Regardless, more ways to revenge kill, or straight up kill in a nice uncompetitive manner. Edited March 29, 2015 by DrCraig

[Frag]

i feel like cb is better in this meta, ww lax and spikes makes reversal set almost useless, also in the most cases cb kills arca.

[Robofiend]

I couldn't watch today's because I was busy irl today but basically. CB Jolly/Adamant Dugtrio is a killer. Force a lax to rest, it's dead. 2hkos blissey. 12.5% to ohko arc. Kills metagross. Etc. Through the means of EQ, Rock Slide, Aerial Ace and a filler Dugtrio can effectively guarantee a revenge kill or come in on a nice predict. The ability to trap and get a guaranteed kill should not be allowed. Dugtrio support is too strong. Same case for wynaut.

Edit: Basically, in comparison with the Sub reversal set, CB Dugtrio has much more coverage and is limited a lot less. CB has more longevity as opposed to the Sub variat and can hang around slowly picking off pokemon through trapping and destroying. I think CB is equal in power, if not strong than the Sub set. Regardless, more ways to revenge kill, or straight up kill in a nice uncompetitive manner.

 

>"if you watched today, you'd see that it's Uber"

>"I didn't watch today"

 

lol

 

Seems like you're forgetting that CB Trio can't switch in reliably? Sure, if it could actually sponge a Body Slam, Meteor Mash, Flame Wheel, etc. it'd be scary, but as is you basically have to sack something to use it, and even then Arcanine can pick it off with Espeed, Snorlax can Curse up on it, and Metagross can live the +1EQ (esp. if it's invested) and KO it back. Dugtrio's definitely high-risk, high-reward and uncompetitive, but it might end up being kinda healthy like it was in ADV OU, where it picked off a lot of the tier's top (grounded) threats to prevent them from constantly overpowering your team.

[DrCraig]

>"if you watched today, you'd see that it's Uber"
>"I didn't watch today"
 
lol
 
Seems like you're forgetting that CB Trio can't switch in reliably? Sure, if it could actually sponge a Body Slam, Meteor Mash, Flame Wheel, etc. it'd be scary, but as is you basically have to sack something to use it, and even then Arcanine can pick it off with Espeed, Snorlax can Curse up on it, and Metagross can live the +1EQ (esp. if it's invested) and KO it back. Dugtrio's definitely high-risk, high-reward and uncompetitive, but it might end up being kinda healthy like it was in ADV OU, where it picked off a lot of the tier's top (grounded) threats to prevent them from constantly overpowering your team.

Yea, double switching isn't a thing. True.

[Senile]

Can you explain what happened? I've always thought CB Trio is pretty reasonable compared to the Sub variant.

Multiple (!) people were using Dugtrio. Dugtrio managed to KO things by TRAPPING THEM (!). Trapping is bad.

 

Clearly must be banned.

 

That's basically the TL;DR.

[DrCraig]

>"if you watched today, you'd see that it's Uber"
>"I didn't watch today"
 
lol
 
Seems like you're forgetting that CB Trio can't switch in reliably? Sure, if it could actually sponge a Body Slam, Meteor Mash, Flame Wheel, etc. it'd be scary, but as is you basically have to sack something to use it, and even then Arcanine can pick it off with Espeed, Snorlax can Curse up on it, and Metagross can live the +1EQ (esp. if it's invested) and KO it back. Dugtrio's definitely high-risk, high-reward and uncompetitive, but it might end up being kinda healthy like it was in ADV OU, where it picked off a lot of the tier's top (grounded) threats to prevent them from constantly overpowering your team.

made that post last week by the way you noodlehead, don't give me shit

[codylramey]

Multiple (!) people were using Dugtrio. Dugtrio managed to KO things by TRAPPING THEM (!). Trapping is bad.

 

Clearly must be banned.

 

That's basically the TL;DR.

Gud nuf for me, time to bring out the ban hammer.

[Rigamorty]

i don't get the fuss over the choice band set. it's even worse than it was in real gen 3, where it was allowed, because it loses sludge bomb/any hidden power. granted trapping is hugely frowned upon in our community for what ever reason, i don't think it's inherently overpowered. it can revenge kill, that's always been its role. 

 

do we really wanna just make up reasons to ban things? do we want to look like the french in gen 4?

[Senile]

i don't get the fuss over the choice band set. it's even worse than it was in real gen 3, where it was allowed, because it loses sludge bomb/any hidden power. granted trapping is hugely frowned upon in our community for what ever reason, i don't think it's inherently overpowered. it can revenge kill, that's always been its role. 

 

do we really wanna just make up reasons to ban things? do we want to look like the french in gen 4?

Riga laying down the law. The hatred for anything that can even slightly be regarded as "uncompetitive" is unreal.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Senile

[Shaniqualela]

i don't get the fuss over the choice band set. it's even worse than it was in real gen 3, where it was allowed, because it loses sludge bomb/any hidden power. granted trapping is hugely frowned upon in our community for what ever reason, i don't think it's inherently overpowered. it can revenge kill, that's always been its role.

do we really wanna just make up reasons to ban things? do we want to look like the french in gen 4?

Real gen 3 also had celebi (only dies to hp bug), dragons, zapdos (only weak to rock slide), suicune, and baton pass.

These are important because:
If dug kills something:
Celebi can set up a sd/cm and BP out.
Suicune can set up a cm
Zapdos was mostly used defensively and could roar/toxic something with spikes up
DRAGONS GOT A FREE DD AFTER IT SWITCHED OUT.

In our meta we have nothing that sets up as good as these do or punishes nearly as hard after dugtrio was forced out. We basically force it out and then it comes back later to kill something. If used right there's absolutely no reason it couldn't get 2+ kills.

The only things we have to punish it are curse lax if it's stuck in aerial ace or a filler, or gyarados, which is forced to run jolly in our meta so isn't really that powerful at +1. (Though it's still a threat, but has pretty low usage compared to any of the other powerhouses we need.)

 

edit:

oh and baton pass pokes could still switch out so yeah

Edited March 29, 2015 by Shaniqualela

[DoubleJ]

Well I'm going to pitch in my two cents on this subject finally. After mulling it over and watching a few competitions recently I believe Dugtrio is just simply an uncompetitive method of beating your opponent. It doesn't take rocket science to use this thing... hell it doesn't even take Kindergarten Alphabet. 

 

Choice Band Dugtrio is the best revenge killer in the game. Without Endure, Heracross is instantly poop against a 4x Aerial Ace.

 

Snorlax and Blissey at or just below half health are poop to STAB EQ.

 

Gengar is even wrecked by either Pursuit or Thief (not at full health, but Gengar will eventually take some hits)

 

Nearly anything else at or around 40% is going to die. If you toss in just a few HP or SpDef evs you can survive a Jolteon HP Grass/Ice and kill it with EQ. Metagross dies to CB EQ most of the time and needs Agility to stand a chance. Starmie is toast after a bit of Spikes damage. I could keep going. This thing is glorious and I use it on damn near every one of my OU sets.

 

And we all still realize how powerful the Reversal version is. That's a guaranteed kill on any Blissey or Lax that don't run crappy Hail (Remember the power of Screech). 

 

It's a cheap option in our meta. It's like that little kid that you one up but then says "blah blah blah + Infinity".