[UU Discussion] Miltank (Banned to BL)

[Robofiend]

I still hold firm that bslam and eq is the best coverage for this thing. Ghosts are not only rare but quite easily handled as well.

 

yeah but then you run into one of a few scenarios:

 

1. Any defensive phaser can give you the boot

2. Sub/CM Missy or Taunt Haunter shrekting you (someday people will realize)

3. Physical Haunter

4. +1 0 Atk Miltank Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 98-116 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 71.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

5. Miltank can't do anything very without boosting and para seems less deadly in UU with clerics like Vileplume, Altaria and Miltank around

6. 252+ SpA Omastar Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank in Rain: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 

 

Definitely seems like these downsides could cost you big time

Edited March 20, 2015 by Robofiend

[PandaJJ]

6. 252+ SpA Omastar Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank in Rain: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I wouldn't be too worried about omastar if miltank has EQ, since it can't switch in:

+1 0 Atk Miltank Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 78-94 (53.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

However, this point:

 

2. Sub/CM Missy or Taunt Haunter shrekting you (someday people will realize)

 

...is enough reason not to run BS/EQ on a miltank. You don't really want to deal with either of those behind a sub. This is why I think BS/fire punch is a better option, but then omastar can potentially become a threat. However, I don't mind switching out from a rain dance omastar nearly as much as I mind switching out from a haunter with sub (there's a pokemon named tentacruel which hard counters omastar and takes advantage of the rain when it switches out.)

 

In either case, curse miltank's problem is that it's attack is too low and it's prone to toxic, and I don't think it is a problem right now.

[Robofiend]

...is enough reason not to run BS/EQ on a miltank. You don't really want to deal with either of those behind a sub. This is why I think BS/fire punch is a better option, but then omastar can potentially become a threat. However, I don't mind switching out from a rain dance omastar nearly as much as I mind switching out from a haunter with sub (there's a pokemon named tentacruel which hard counters omastar and takes advantage of the rain when it switches out.)

 

Mud-Slap Omastar OP

[DoubleJ]

Mud-Slap Omastar OP

Hp electric hurts too, which is viable with mantine running around.

[PandaJJ]

Hp electric hurts too, which is viable with mantine running around.

 
252+ SpA Omastar Hidden Power Electric vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 70-84 (44.8 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tentacruel Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Omastar: 136-160 (93.1 - 109.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
 
Given these calcs, omastar would have to hit on the switch to be able to do anything. Even then, it does run the risk of dying if it goes for the kill. Against defensive omastar, tentacruel always wins. And for mud slap:
 
252+ SpA Omastar Mud Slap vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 22-26 (14.1 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[spoiler]lol[/spoiler]

Edited March 21, 2015 by PandaJJ

[OldKeith]

News for Miltank? Seems a bit too much for UU honestly, we saw it sweeping the semis mercilessly. Curse, Milk Drink, Body Slam, Heal Bell almost unstopable.

[Robofiend]

News for Miltank? Seems a bit too much for UU honestly, we saw it sweeping the semis mercilessly. Curse, Milk Drink, Body Slam, Heal Bell almost unstopable.

 

WTB Haunter?

 

Serious note: might agree becuase of how stronk Curse is

Edited March 29, 2015 by Robofiend

[OldKeith]

WTB Haunter?

 

Serious note: might agree becuase of how stronk Curse is

 

Yeah let's be honest here: if you want to get rid of a ghost, you do. Stopping Cursetank without a ghost, pretty hard.

[Robofiend]

Yeah let's be honest here: if you want to get rid of a ghost, you do. Stopping Cursetank without a ghost, pretty hard.

 

Yeah, it's a shame Haunter's relatively slow and weak to Pursuit. CM Missy could do the trick, I guess. 

 

Unrelated: I've seen people use that Miltank set in XY OU/UU and it's nearly unstoppable without a ghost type there as well. It's just a really good/irritating set to play against.

[DoubleJ]

Saw a pretty mean Curse-Miltank today. Was able to get to +6 and sweep. Still pretty certain that its speed and bulk make it ban-worthy with the use of Curse in our meta. 

[DaftCoolio]

get a ghost type

[DoubleJ]

get a ghost type

 

Problem solved. Close the thread. Thank you Coolio brah. 

[Tyrone]

Miltank is pretty strong, but I don't think it's too strong for the UU tier.

Based on the amount of discussion I've seen so far in combination with recent usage stats it seems like the community thinks the same.

Although the UU Council is not completely convinced about this cow, so I'm leaving this thread open for discussion.

 

So if you have any more thoughts, please share them in a constructive way (stay on topic).

[Bestfriendss]

Miltank is pretty strong, but I don't think it's too strong for the UU tier.

Based on the amount of discussion I've seen so far in combination with recent usage stats it seems like the community thinks the same.

Although the UU Council is not completely convinced about this cow, so I'm leaving this thread open for discussion.

 

So if you have any more thoughts, please share them in a constructive way (stay on topic).

Sure, I still think the cow should be banned because of Curse, BS, EQ, and worst of all HEAL BELL! The cow is nearly impossible to counter if cursed up, it can counter tons of threats in the field. Even worst, Thunderpunch and Earthquake, complete immunity to ghost and can hit any types even replacing Tpunch with Ice Punch. In the end, the cow is a threat and this might give me a phobia of Dairy Queen for a couple of days (no cow jokes intended).

[YagamiNoir]

In regards to the whole "Ghost types are easily" shrekt thing, as much as this synergy seems relevant, I'd like to point out that Fighting types deal with both Miltank and Pursuit users fairly effectively, especially in synergy with a Ghost type;  well, the ones that are Dark types, at least. (And Destiny Bond a Choice Band Mach Punch Houndoom, try your luck). It's probably a prediction matter, but I believe such similarities have their relevance. 

 

Now for some counter listing. Altaria can Roar/Haze it while healing off status with Natural Cure. Personally, I do believe that stuff like Armaldo don't really mind setting up alongside Miltank. Similar scenarios go for stuff like Steelix with Curse (if not phazing it) or Bulk Up Hitmontop/Poliwrath, although I suppose it may bail down to a whole crit war and whatever, so I suppose it's viability is debatable. Opting for Heal Bell and Milk Drink skips a moveslot meaning that a lot of things shouldn't be as threatened by it's offensive coverage before responding. Misdreavus and Haunter also get Taunt, which completely ruins mono-attacking Miltanks, the latter also having Will-O-Wisp, and both have Pain Split just in case Fire Punch is put into the equation. By then, it's forced to either run Rest or be vulnerable to Toxic, so the moveslot syndrome is also a fairly relevant Achilles' heel.  Should it lack Fire Punch (and while it is still under discussion) more defensive variants of setup Scizors also prove effective. 

 

Pardon me if this is kinda odd, but I'd compare Miltank to something like Curselax. Generally, though, I don't exactly see Miltank as kind of a UU Curselax kinda thing; it sufffers from 4MSS more severely than Snorlax because it doesn't have the comparable innate bulk to make those two turns less impacted as one would think it'd be if it decides to run Rest; by running both Heal Bell and Milk Drink, it's low coverage means a lot of things are able to respond to it and phaze it away or setup alongside it. Paralysis is perhaps a noteworthy issue, especially considering Miltank can fish for para first before setting up, but I'm not exactly convinced that it's a super big issue. Miltank also doesn't have the ability, like Snorlax, to run tons of other viable sets as effectively as Snorlax can, as much as there are alternative options. I'd also argue that Miltank doesn't exactly respond to a lot of Pokemon effectively enough to set up, I may be wrong -- I just peeked at statistics and thought that it didn't have a lot it could come in and set it up on, nor is it something that instantaneously gets an unhealthily rewarding advantage as it picks up one Curse if it gets an opportunity.

[OrangeManiac]

In regards to the whole "Ghost types are easily" shrekt thing, as much as this synergy seems relevant, I'd like to point out that Fighting types deal with both Miltank and Pursuit users fairly effectively, especially in synergy with a Ghost type;  well, the ones that are Dark types, at least. (And Destiny Bond a Choice Band Mach Punch Houndoom, try your luck). It's probably a prediction matter, but I believe such similarities have their relevance. 

 

Now for some counter listing. Altaria can Roar/Haze it while healing off status with Natural Cure. Personally, I do believe that stuff like Armaldo don't really mind setting up alongside Miltank. Similar scenarios go for stuff like Steelix with Curse (if not phazing it) or Bulk Up Hitmontop/Poliwrath, although I suppose it may bail down to a whole crit war and whatever, so I suppose it's viability is debatable. Opting for Heal Bell and Milk Drink skips a moveslot meaning that a lot of things shouldn't be as threatened by it's offensive coverage before responding. Misdreavus and Haunter also get Taunt, which completely ruins mono-attacking Miltanks, the latter also having Will-O-Wisp, and both have Pain Split just in case Fire Punch is put into the equation. By then, it's forced to either run Rest or be vulnerable to Toxic, so the moveslot syndrome is also a fairly relevant Achilles' heel.  Should it lack Fire Punch (and while it is still under discussion) more defensive variants of setup Scizors also prove effective. 

 

Pardon me if this is kinda odd, but I'd compare Miltank to something like Curselax. Generally, though, I don't exactly see Miltank as kind of a UU Curselax kinda thing; it sufffers from 4MSS more severely than Snorlax because it doesn't have the comparable innate bulk to make those two turns less impacted as one would think it'd be if it decides to run Rest; by running both Heal Bell and Milk Drink, it's low coverage means a lot of things are able to respond to it and phaze it away or setup alongside it. Paralysis is perhaps a noteworthy issue, especially considering Miltank can fish for para first before setting up, but I'm not exactly convinced that it's a super big issue. Miltank also doesn't have the ability, like Snorlax, to run tons of other viable sets as effectively as Snorlax can, as much as there are alternative options. I'd also argue that Miltank doesn't exactly respond to a lot of Pokemon effectively enough to set up, I may be wrong -- I just peeked at statistics and thought that it didn't have a lot it could come in and set it up on, nor is it something that instantaneously gets an unhealthily rewarding advantage as it picks up one Curse if it gets an opportunity.

Might be just me but whenever phazing is brought up to discuss about stopping a set up sweeper, I think something is terribly wrong. Meanwhile Curse Steelix sounds interesting sounding like it could work and all, yet I don't find it the best Curse user since boosting dat Defense while leaving plenty of OHKOs on the special side sounds kinda meh. After a Curse on the switch, I think Hitmontop and Wrath are checks at best because with that defense boost the only way to beat that is whoever gets the crit first. The difference with these set uppers, however, is that if Top/Wrath wins the set up battle they can be revenge killed much more easily than Miltank. If you lose the crit battle to Miltank, the massive special defense and only fight-weakness makes it more often than not an unstoppable sweep. Therefor, if anything it's always more reliable to bring a Miltank in for the Curse crit battle than these mentioned two in my opinion. Which just to me sounds like this cow is broken asf.

Also I always think Miltank should be discussed as a two moves attacker, I mean who of us wants to bring a single Ghost in without finding out all the moves and by my experience I'd say Fire Punch > Heal Bell anyways since in the unlucky event Miltank gets statused, it can just go to a cleric and wait to get back on the Miltank -> Milk Drink -> and try another Cursesweep.

 

Saw a pretty mean Curse-Miltank today. Was able to get to +6 and sweep. Still pretty certain that its speed and bulk make it ban-worthy with the use of Curse in our meta. 

I'll take the blame for this one :) it was against Pokemon that you wouldn't think Miltank would even work against but it did because Curse OP.

[YagamiNoir]

Might be just me but whenever phazing is brought up to discuss about stopping a set up sweeper, I think something is terribly wrong. Meanwhile Curse Steelix sounds interesting sounding like it could work and all, yet I don't find it the best Curse user since boosting dat Defense while leaving plenty of OHKOs on the special side sounds kinda meh. After a Curse on the switch, I think Hitmontop and Wrath are checks at best because with that defense boost the only way to beat that is whoever gets the crit first. The difference with these set uppers, however, is that if Top/Wrath wins the set up battle they can be revenge killed much more easily than Miltank. If you lose the crit battle to Miltank, the massive special defense and only fight-weakness makes it more often than not an unstoppable sweep. Therefor, if anything it's always more reliable to bring a Miltank in for the Curse crit battle than these mentioned two in my opinion. Which just to me sounds like this cow is broken asf.

Also I always think Miltank should be discussed as a two moves attacker, I mean who of us wants to bring a single Ghost in without finding out all the moves and by my experience I'd say Fire Punch > Heal Bell anyways since in the unlucky event Miltank gets statused, it can just go to a cleric and wait to get back on the Miltank -> Milk Drink -> and try another Cursesweep.

 

I'll take the blame for this one :) it was against Pokemon that you wouldn't think Miltank would even work against but it did because Curse OP.

Nothing should be actually wrong when using phazing in an effort to counter a setup Pokemon. I mean, that's what the moves themselves are supposed to do; we might as well remove the word phazing if it's not relevant, because "huh, I don't care if you delay me, I can just do it again later". I personally think this is pretty underrated, given it is probably one of the safest responses to prevent it from getting out of hand before you decide how you should take it down with something else later, you plan for matches and you should be able to halt something like this if you want to buy your team some momentum. That's how phazing works. It doesn't stop the problem, but it does buy time for you to plan how you should stop it and stops it from immediately getting out of hand. 

 

I wouldn't call Miltank's Special Defense really good to work with; like, I get 95/75 is good and all, but not to the point where it can sponge every Special Attack thrown at it reliably compared to other special walls in UU. It's also notable that Bulk Up doesn't exactly reduce Speed, whereas Miltank is then prone to revenge killing whereas Hitmontop and Poliwrath can still outspeed a bit of stuff, or Mach Punch or the former, I suppose it depends. It's unfair that you assume the whole prone to revenge killing argument applying it on those two rather than Miltank especially if you consider they take damage beforehand. 

 

Anything can be really centralizing with support, and "support" should not be applied on only the banworthy things, but also the support to counter it; nothing exactly justifies that your cleric survives longer than the Toxic user or vice versa, unless Miltank itself is using it. Again, I doubt Miltank can actually really set up on a lot in the tier, it's just that when it does, you'll struggle a tad bit to take it down, but it's probably not the whole Scizor/Zangoose-ish kind of tier when it comes to setup. 

[OrangeManiac]

The whole thing about Miltank, as long it's at even somewhere near 50% it just CANNOT be revenge killed because nothing in this tier does even close to that damage to it while set up. It will just spam Milk Drink until at full HP so the speed drop don't really make it any more prone.

About the support thing, I'm aware of that. It just seems to me we're sometimes acting here like when something is statused, it's basically done for. Just trying to argue more that Fire Punch > Heal Bell but mkay.

Edited April 13, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[YagamiNoir]

The whole thing about Miltank, as long it's at even somewhere near 50% it just CANNOT be revenge killed because nothing in this tier does even close to that damage to it while set up. It will just spam Milk Drink until at full HP so the speed drop don't really make it any more prone.

About the support thing, I'm aware of that. It just seems to me we're sometimes acting here like when something is statused, it's basically done for. Just trying to argue more that Fire Punch > Heal Bell but mkay.

Well, it's 16 PP max, it can't do it forever, annoying as it is to stall for so many turns and stuff. It depends if it is forced to Milk Drink or not, I guess, but undesirably you're not gonna do that when it's already having multiple boosts, nor does a super buffed Miltank actually need to use it a lot apart from Special Attacks, I guess. I personally think that pressure seems pretty relevant on the special side until eventually runs out of it, I may be wrong. 

 

Successful Curse sweeps are significantly crippled if not literally unable to put into practise, as a better term for it being "done for". Unless that Toxic is healed, Miltank cannot pull off a Curse sweep, and then this go back to our statements, and the like. I don't exactly think there is a line in which Fire Punch or Heal Bell is better because they're meant for different things; I'd debatably even say clearing yourself and teammates of status is probably better than the ability to hit Scizor and sting Steel types to some extent, but okay. 

[Bestfriendss]

I want to get in on this action, Miltank is a beast because of what Orange has mentioned before. Milk Drink (PP Maxed) and curse (not to mention Heal Bell). This cow is on a roll with Fire Punches and body slams and could easily knock out some pokes. With these two offensive moves, it is possible to touch ghost types and water types. Jellycent might be miltank's only counter here, but this poke is a 5th gen poke so it doesn't apply. Kabutops if a bit more defence could counter the cow, but the cow might have Thunderpunch, so it is a win/lose situation. Miltank is too OP for UU and not only that, OU needs a substitute for Snorlax rather than using Blissy all day.

[OldKeith]

Miltank is too OP for UU and not only that, OU needs a substitute for Snorlax rather than using Blissy all day.

 

The UU bans have no effect on OU. You know that, right?

[Bestfriendss]

The UU bans have no effect on OU. You know that, right?

I do, but I also know that BLs can be used in OU.

[flavajabari]

I do, but I also know that BLs can be used in OU.

 

so can UU's

[Bestfriendss]

so can UU's

I know all of this, I am just stating that Miltank can be used in OU more often than UU since Snorlax is gone until May 11 (Blissy only specializes in Sp Def, Miltank is a Defensive version of Blissy).

[Gunthug]

I know all of this, I am just stating that Miltank can be used in OU more often than UU since Snorlax is gone until May 11 (Blissy only specializes in Sp Def, Miltank is a Defensive version of Blissy).

This has nothing to do with whether miltank is in UU or BL - you can use it in OU to replace snorlax regardless of what happens here. For this reason, any mention of miltanks viability in OU is irrelevenant to this thread and you should stop bringing it up

Edit: >irrelevenant lel Edited April 14, 2015 by Gunthug