UU Viability Thread

[DrCraig]

Brave Muk is the best set in my opinion
Running Sub/Fpunch/Icepunch/sludge lets you cover chansey, focuspunch hits Tentacruel hard enough, and shit on exeggutor. Otherwise exeggutor, which is more threating then tenta in my opinion, will wall you. Thunder punch would be my 2nd choice over sludge.

Nik I like your point about tossing while it's in, assuming you're faster, but that's risky since a full physical adamant muk is equally as threatening and if it outspeeds u, it's a problem.

Regardless I think we can conclude Muk is a counter, Idk what else this is proving tho.

Edited June 2, 2015 by DrCraig

[NikhilR]

Completely disagree on the speed point - even if running a -speed nature you can still invest enough to outspeed the vast majority of chanseys without hurting your muk too bad I'm the other categories. Personally, I don't run a -speed nature so this is an easy task

 

Fair enough if you don't run - speed. I assume ppl would run it for the stab sbomb which is also helpful to hit things like vile/exegg. You're right about investing enough speed as well because I just calc'd it and around 60-70 evs should be enough to outspeed chansey as you hit a speed stat of about 71. 

 

252+ Atk Muk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Claydol: 118-140 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Muk Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 110-129 (36.4 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252+ Atk Muk ThunderPunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 220-260 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

If you're gonna run adamant, then you'd be walled by Quagsire/Exeggutor. That's the point of finding out the moveset. Which is why I ran 252 spak because I feel that it'd be better with stab sbomb to hit grass types like vile, cacturne, exegg hitting things like steelix with fireblast if you run it or if you want giga to hit quagsire/omastar etc.

 

252+ Atk Muk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 66-78 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I'm not disagreeing with your calcs because like I said, Muk is pretty scary but if you're lucky to have the right counters for that moveset, then Muk doesn't pose that big of a threat. 

 

EDIT: added calcs and shit

Edited June 2, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

Why in oblivion's name are people still complaining about the pink blob, although it's nice to see the gooey blob get some love.

 

Chansey has terrible offensive presence (Inb4 some Lucky Punch argument comes out). It's only viable attack bails down to Seismic Toss, meaning it can get screwed by anything that's behind a sustainable Sub. Taunt also completely disrupts it, and Nidoqueen/Nidoking don't fear anything at all (unless you want to factor Counter in there). Heal Bell Granbull also makes it scared, and depending on the status move (Toxic/Thunder Wave) Ground/Steel/Poison types and Hitmonlee/Swellow get a free switch. Heck, even Leech Seed Vileplume can outstall it. 

 

Being able to effortlessly stop stuff like say Manectric and Lanturn is good and all, but it's not exactly an overpowered thing. It's not that significant a loss of momentum, given the only thing Chansey can boast to scare anything is its sheer stats and status, and 50 damage. Well, this is primarily in response to I think Craig's post in the discussion thread as well as some other stuff said here. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[NikhilR]

Chansey has terrible offensive presence (Inb4 some Lucky Punch argument comes out). It's only viable attack bails down to Seismic Toss, meaning it can get screwed by anything that's behind a sustainable Sub. Taunt also completely disrupts it, and Nidoqueen/Nidoking don't fear anything at all (unless you want to factor Counter in there). Heal Bell Granbull also makes it scared, and depending on the status move (Toxic/Thunder Wave) Ground/Steel/Poison types and Hitmonlee/Swellow get a free switch. Heck, even Leech Seed Vileplume can outstall it. 

 

Being able to effortlessly stop stuff like say Manectric and Lanturn is good and all, but it's not exactly an overpowered thing. It's not that significant a loss of momentum, given the only thing Chansey can boast to scare anything is its sheer stats and status, and 50 damage. Well, this is primarily in response to I think Craig's post in the discussion thread as well as some other stuff said here. 

 

Give me a few examples of pokemon with sustainable sub that can screw Chansey. Kangaskhan and Muk work unless the former switches in on a toxic. What other moves would you prefer on a heal bell granbull? 

 

Even if a steel type like Steelix switches in on a Chansey, the only thing Steelix can do to scare it, is toxic it and then start hitting. While you're in the process of toxic+eqing Chansey, it can do around 50% dmg to your steelix, a pokemon that has no recovery. Chansey can then switch out and come back again making all that effort seem useless.

 

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Hitmonlee: 50-50 (39.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

This is not a safe switch in at all. The only safe switch in is when you go into a protect. Assuming you come in on a toxic. It can just protect that turn and let toxic damage continue to pile on. It survives most physical attacks bar fighting type so you can't sub with certain physical pokemon as well which makes it a must to carry a fighting type move to beat this thing. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by NikhilR

[YagamiNoir]

Give me a few examples of pokemon with sustainable sub that can screw Chansey. Kangaskhan and Muk work unless the former switches in on a toxic. What other moves would you prefer on a heal bell granbull? 

 

Even if a steel type like Steelix switches in on a Chansey, the only thing Steelix can do to scare it, is toxic it and then start hitting. While you're in the process of toxic+eqing Chansey, it can do around 50% dmg to your steelix, a pokemon that has no recovery. Chansey can then switch out and come back again making all that effort seem useless.

 

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Hitmonlee: 50-50 (39.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

This is not a safe switch in at all. The only safe switch in is when you go into a protect. Assuming you come in on a toxic. It can just protect that turn and let toxic damage continue to pile on. It survives most physical attacks bar fighting type so you can't sub with certain physical pokemon as well which makes it a must to carry a fighting type move to beat this thing. 

...What.

 

I mean, as long as the Sub can sustain, it's not like Chansey's going to do anything back either. SubDrum Walrein for instance can use it as fodder. I understand you're going to insult my creativity as I say this, but there are a few things you can do depending on how willing you are. Sub/DD Lapras and Whiscash, Sub Exploud, Sub Azumarill, well you have some things. 

 

.....To be fair,  I said switch in on a status move, for oblivion's sake, and if you're running Protect, what do you ditch, Heal Bell/Aromatherapy? And suddenly Toxic hits Toxic immune stuff. I suppose it's fine due to Natural Cure, but I tend to believe all good clerics run Aromatherapy, but a set of Toxic/Protect/Softboiled/Seismic Toss I'll recognize. 

 

"Which makes it a must to carry a Fighting type move to beat this thing"

252+ Choice Band Guts Swellow Return vs. 252/252+ Chansey: 311-367 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade vs. 252/252+ Chansey: 428-504 (119.8 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 + Granbull Return vs. 252/252+ Chansey: 175-207 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

 

You want something else Chansey can't touch? Heal Bell Misdreavus. Gets Taunt if you want to top that off, and Taunt/Calm Mind can set up on it. Again I won't go into this further because of "counter demand."

Edited June 2, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[DrCraig]

The common Chansey set doesn't have heal bell or aromatherapy since it can wish support and protect scout. It heals with NC as you say. Vileplume is generally the ideal cleric. And the problem with choice banders attacking Chansey, as you posted, is the fact that Chansey can protect while they lock into a move then run. Set up pokes are the next best thing and they are crippled by status. Nevertheless nobody would play blindly enough to do that. Problem is the crippling is nearly unavoidable even if you aren't playing blindly.

Edited June 2, 2015 by DrCraig

[NikhilR]

...What.

 

I mean, as long as the Sub can sustain, it's not like Chansey's going to do anything back either. SubDrum Walrein for instance can use it as fodder. I understand you're going to insult my creativity as I say this, but there are a few things you can do depending on how willing you are. Sub/DD Lapras and Whiscash, Sub Exploud, Sub Azumarill, well you have some things. 

 

.....To be fair,  I said switch in on a status move, for oblivion's sake, and if you're running Protect, what do you ditch, Heal Bell/Aromatherapy? And suddenly Toxic hits Toxic immune stuff. I suppose it's fine due to Natural Cure, but I tend to believe all good clerics run Aromatherapy, but a set of Toxic/Protect/Softboiled/Seismic Toss I'll recognize. 

 

"Which makes it a must to carry a Fighting type move to beat this thing"

252+ Choice Band Guts Swellow Return vs. 252/252+ Chansey: 311-367 (87.1 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade vs. 252/252+ Chansey: 428-504 (119.8 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 + Granbull Return vs. 252/252+ Chansey: 175-207 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

 

You want something else Chansey can't touch? Heal Bell Misdreavus. Gets Taunt if you want to top that off, and Taunt/Calm Mind can set up on it. Again I won't go into this further because of "counter demand."

 

I'm not gonna insult your creativity but I haven't tested out sub drum walrein so I can't say for sure how good/bad it is. Azumarill works well tbh but it's better speed invested since you want to outspeed things like porygon2 as well and when you put in enough speed investment to beat it, you won't hit 200+hp and therefore your sub breaks. DD lapras is bad and imo so is Whiscash with the huge number of grass types we have in UU.

 

How can you be so sure that you're going to switch into a status move or seismic toss? Your odds of switching into seismic toss is higher because chansey isn't going to toxic vile or steelix. Therefore you don't get the privilege of choosing the move. If you're going to refer to the situation where prediction on my side is favoured, then nope because I have taken into account of both scenarios where seismic/toxic both affect the opponent. 

 

Your Swellow needs "support" in the form of toxic to help beat Chansey, can't beat it with a single move otherwise. Also Swellow is probably one of the worst pokemon to use atm since it can't touch rock/steel types. Your healbell Granbull can't ohko Chansey either so I don't know what the point of that calc was either. I think I've already mentioned before that Chansey can't touch Misd unless Misd switches in on a toxic, dunno why you're repeating it.

 

The common Chansey set doesn't have heal bell or aromatherapy since it can wish support and protect scout. It heals with NC as you say. Vileplume is generally the ideal cleric. And the problem with choice banders attacking Chansey, as you posted, is the fact that Chansey can protect while they lock into a move then run. Set up pokes are the next best thing and they are crippled by status. Nevertheless nobody would play blindly enough to do that. Problem is the crippling is nearly unavoidable even if you aren't playing blindly.

 

Pre-fucking-cisely. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by NikhilR

[Gunthug]

The common Chansey set doesn't have heal bell or aromatherapy since it can wish support and protect scout. It heals with NC as you say. Vileplume is generally the ideal cleric. And the problem with choice banders attacking Chansey, as you posted, is the fact that Chansey can protect while they lock into a move then run. Set up pokes are the next best thing and they are crippled by status. Nevertheless nobody would play blindly enough to do that. Problem is the crippling is nearly unavoidable even if you aren't playing blindly.

I dk if I would call a set up poke "crippled" by toxic from chansey. I'll take a toxic on my kabutops if it means getting to +2 or even +4 if chansey then protects to "stack damage."

[YagamiNoir]

The common Chansey set doesn't have heal bell or aromatherapy since it can wish support and protect scout. It heals with NC as you say. Vileplume is generally the ideal cleric. And the problem with choice banders attacking Chansey, as you posted, is the fact that Chansey can protect while they lock into a move then run. Set up pokes are the next best thing and they are crippled by status. Nevertheless nobody would play blindly enough to do that. Problem is the crippling is nearly unavoidable even if you aren't playing blindly.

I very strongly disagree with the bolded statement here. 

 

Good setup Pokemon are effectively prepared against status. Say Crawdaunt with Taunt or Sub, for instance, and of course, we're forgetting Lum Berry. Not that it nullifies it completely, but it does play a significant deal in limiting Chansey's crippling capabilities.  Especially given that you're opting for Wish/Protect recovery rather than the instantaneous Softboiled, Chansey is far more vulnerable to setup attackers since you have to burn two turns or essentially switch out for one, which is why I mentioned the Softboiled set, that personally puts more direct pressure apart from the whole Choice-lock. By then of which you can't expect what's in front of you to do absolutely nothing. There's also something called double switching; I mean, Choice-lock on Protect is a dead giveaway you have to get out, so there's no reason for anyone to stay in, akin to how "nevertheless nobody would play blindly enough to do that." 

 

I'm only going to answer one question, Nik, and that's in without Softboiled, Granbull wins one v one, since Chansey will be forced to revolve between Wish/Protect, switch out or get 2HKOed. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[DoubleJ]

A war has started about how swapping into seismic isn't a good idea.

Chansey is so easy to play around unless you have a team of special attackers and pikachu. It though has great synergy with a number of pokemon that support it very well, and it supports them, but why should it be banned?

I'm seeing a lot of argument about how good it is but no criteria to be banned.

[NikhilR]

A war has started about how swapping into seismic isn't a good idea.

Chansey is so easy to play around unless you have a team of special attackers and pikachu. It though has great synergy with a number of pokemon that support it very well, and it supports them, but why should it be banned?

I'm seeing a lot of argument about how good it is but no criteria to be banned.

 

Nah it's not about that Joey. It's about people complaining about how Chansey has a lack of offense when Seismic Toss is quite offensive. For me, pokemon which have lack of offense are umbreon, shuckle.

 

Unhealthiness, a very good supporter, special defensively uber ( :P ) are some characteristics under which I think it could be banworthy.

Edited June 2, 2015 by NikhilR

[DoubleJ]

Nik, you should make a bigger effort to delve into each of these topics which might lead to a ban rather than to defend each small argument against your opinions, calcs, and statements.

[DrCraig]

Exept this isn't the discussion thread for Chansey and it has not been made yet so talking specifically of banning is pretty pointless since this has no effect on bans. General tier discussion and viability ranking does not entail specific ban discussion. Save it for a possible thread. Hopefully.

Edited June 2, 2015 by DrCraig

[DoubleJ]

UU council make the decision to open threads?

[DrCraig]

UU council make the decision to open threads?

Yes, so when they gather a response to my request I believe it will pan out 1 of 2 ways:

- UU Council gives the community no opportunity to discuss and just posts their opinions. Basically rejecting it.

- They realize having discussion threads open aren't a bad thing, open it, post their opinions, then we discuss.

[DoubleJ]

I personally like this as it was one of my suggestions and gives them an opportunity to focus but the problem is just how active they can be as a group. Hoping things flow smoothly and don't grow stale. Until then the "unofficial council" will bicker here.

[DrCraig]

Chansey has been moved from B+ to A.

 

Clefable has been moved from A to B+.

 

If there are any opinions are further moving these pokemon, feel free to discuss.

 

 

I am going to restate the list from B to S below because my mind tells me not everybody looks at the OP frequently, and I don't blame you guys. I'm doing this in order to fine tune the list. If you see anything you don't agree with, feel free voice your opinion.

[spoiler]S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the UU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

 

S Rank:

 Hitmonlee

 

 

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the UU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

 

A+ Rank:

Granbull

Swellow

Manectric

 

A Rank:

Azumarill

Breloom

Chansey

Exeggutor

Fearow

Gligar

Houndoom

Jynx

Kangaskhan

Vileplume

Zangoose

 

 

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the UU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

 

B+ Rank:

Absol

Altaria

Blastoise

Clefable

Claydol

Kingler

Lanturn

Magmar

Pikachu

Porygon2

Steelix

Xatu

 

B  Rank:

Aggron

Armaldo

Cradily

Crawdaunt

Donphan

Flareon

Golem

Haunter

Hitmontop

Hypno

Kabutops

Lapras

Ninetales

Omastar

Pinsir

Primeape

Quagsire

Shuckle

Tentacruel

Walrein

Whiscash

[/spoiler]

Edited June 2, 2015 by DrCraig

[DoubleJ]

I think it's time we bump mosdreavus to B+. The ghostly girl makes even the most commonly used pokemon set-up bait with her typing, natural bulk, ability, and access to cm/sub combo. The only reasonable counter is steelix when considering the standard cm/sub/sball/tbolt set. Chansey, clef, cb locked pokes, and many others are threatened by this beast and she proves to be a deadly force when she gets rolling.

[DrCraig]

I think it's time we bump mosdreavus to B+. The ghostly girl makes even the most commonly used pokemon set-up bait with her typing, natural bulk, ability, and access to cm/sub combo. The only reasonable counter is steelix when considering the standard cm/sub/sball/tbolt set. Chansey, clef, cb locked pokes, and many others are threatened by this beast and she proves to be a deadly force when she gets rolling.

I agree Geegee and I have no idea how Misdreavus fell to C rank. I'd like to see more discussion, but good looks dude.

[NikhilR]

I think it's time we bump mosdreavus to B+. The ghostly girl makes even the most commonly used pokemon set-up bait with her typing, natural bulk, ability, and access to cm/sub combo. The only reasonable counter is steelix when considering the standard cm/sub/sball/tbolt set. Chansey, clef, cb locked pokes, and many others are threatened by this beast and she proves to be a deadly force when she gets rolling.

 

Kangaskhan deals with misd quite well also :)

[DoubleJ]

Kangaskhan deals with misd quite well also :)

This is true, and after watching the last tournament it is apparent that players have truly learned how to play kangaskhan successfully. It may require a bump in viability as well.

[BurntZebra]

This is true, and after watching the last tournament it is apparent that players have truly learned how to play kangaskhan successfully. It may require a bump in viability as well.

I don't think kangas is that viable tbh. It can't really break through defensive teams and the bulky set struggles vs offensive teams as they usually lean toward physical attackers instead of special attackers. Defensive teams usually have some combination of steelix, vileplume, exeggutor, and quagsire, all but steelix have instant recovery and none can get 2hko'ed by 252 hp/252 attack kangaskhan. 

[gbwead]

Why no one plays muk with curse and shadow punch?

[Gunthug]

Why no one plays muk with curse and shadow punch?

Even a +1 defense muk is destroyed by several common earthquake users. Shadow punch has a low Bp and coverage wise, ice punch is much better imo.

[gbwead]

Even a +1 defense muk is destroyed by several common earthquake users. Shadow punch has a low Bp and coverage wise, ice punch is much better imo.

I agree that Shadow punch BP is a problem. As for coverage, Ghost + fighting is better than ice + fighting.