UU Viability Thread

[DoubleJ]

I see what you mean but I see stall as making it unsafe for them to switch without resistances, immunities and defenses. It not like a bunch of shuckles are running around, our stall users have power also which might be underrated, Idk. Anyway this is a pretty generic/vague discussion..

Ya very, but against a team without swellow that relies on the common walls this set on goose is pretty viscous:

Swords Dance, Return, Low Kick, Fire Punch.

Low Kick shreks Steelix while fire punch ohko's scizor. +2 Return obliterates the rest, especially after spikes or previously acquired damage. +2 low kick is also a 2hko on omastar which was otherwise a check for goose.

If you have answers for scizor thunder punch is great to catch oma with as well (+2 ohko).

Only downfall is lack of priority so faster threats will always chase it away. But playing that hit and run, set up and wreck game plan is pretty sweet.

Instant recovery and a lack of decent bulk beats on goose.

Granbull has an easier time switching in and can take a hit better than goose. Speed issues hurt though.

Edit: When i say without swellow i mean without anything faster and hard hitting. Edited June 18, 2015 by DoubleJ

[BurntZebra]

Ya very, but against a team without swellow that relies on the common walls this set on goose is pretty viscous:

Swords Dance, Return, Low Kick, Fire Punch.

Low Kick shreks Steelix while fire punch ohko's scizor. +2 Return obliterates the rest, especially after spikes or previously acquired damage. +2 low kick is also a 2hko on omastar which was otherwise a check for goose.

If you have answers for scizor thunder punch is great to catch oma with as well (+2 ohko).

Only downfall is lack of priority so faster threats will always chase it away. But playing that hit and run, set up and wreck game plan is pretty sweet.

Instant recovery and a lack of decent bulk beats on goose.

Granbull has an easier time switching in and can take a hit better than goose. Speed issues hurt though.

Edit: When i say without swellow i mean without anything faster and hard hitting.

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 78-94 (44 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

dayum omastar

0 SpA Omastar Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zangoose: 91-108 (61.4 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Zangoose ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 98-116 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

or Omastar can run 252+ SpA Omastar Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zangoose: 123-145 (83.1 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

magically assuming that each player can keep 3 spikes down, zangoose can't really come in on much and force it out

[DoubleJ]

Wth did i calc when i saw +2 ko on oma lol. Nevertheless those aren't that bad of calcs when the common scenario will be zangoose swapping in on a toxic or for a revenge kill. It goes +2 on the oma switch in (or whatever switch in). If oma has 25% damage already it's dead and zangoose is putting a hurt on the rest, barring a fast revenge killer of their own.

[Gunthug]

Wth did i calc when i saw +2 ko on oma lol. Nevertheless those aren't that bad of calcs when the common scenario will be zangoose swapping in on a toxic or for a revenge kill. It goes +2 on the oma switch in (or whatever switch in). If oma has 25% damage already it's dead and zangoose is putting a hurt on the rest, barring a fast revenge killer of their own.

Well, if a team doesnt have a fast revenge killer of some sort then they deserve to get swept. Even with some residual damage Omastar puts a huge dent in zangoose and I would bet that nearly every priority attack in UU (and there are plenty) could take it out.

 

That being said, I do think zangoose has seen a jump in usage - i'm seeing it far more often than I used to, and I doubt it'll stay NU by usage for long. B+ though honestly seems about right for it. Maybe A, i dk

[DoubleJ]

I'd go A. That coverage. That power. That speed. Even that ability.

It can sweep and it does a pretty good job at what it does.

[DrCraig]

Just passing by...

 

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the UU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

 

S Rank:

 Chansey

 Hitmonlee

 Slowking

 

 

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the UU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

 

A+ Rank:

Alakazam

Scizor

Swellow

Vileplume

 

A Rank:

Azumarill

Charizard

Exeggutor

Fearow

Gligar

Granbull

Houndoom

Jynx

Kangaskhan

Manectric

Porygon2

Umbreon

[DoubleJ]

Time to move Crawdaunt to A+. It's out best Choice Band user by far and is able to come in on standard-Slowking without fear, retaliating with STAB Crunch which 2HKO"s almost everything that doesn't resist it or predicting a Steelix switch-in with STAB Waterfall/Crabhammer. 

 

Also, petition to drop Hitmonlee to A+ or A. With Slowking back, it just doesn't warrant the S rank anymore. 

[Gunthug]

Rip umbreon and p2 if OU bans become permanent. That's something that hasn't occurred to me

Edited July 1, 2015 by Gunthug

[Arimanius]

Time to move Crawdaunt to A+. It's out best Choice Band user by far and is able to come in on standard-Slowking without fear, retaliating with STAB Crunch which 2HKO"s almost everything that doesn't resist it or predicting a Steelix switch-in with STAB Waterfall/Crabhammer. 
 
Also, petition to drop Hitmonlee to A+ or A. With Slowking back, it just doesn't warrant the S rank anymore.

Completely agree with this, the only way Hitmonlee can do something to slowking is Return or Double-Edge which is easily walled by rock and steel types like steelix or omastar or even haunter. Crawdaunt is difficult to wall with all those moves and it does hurt slowking

[gbwead]

Crawdaunt might be difficult to wall but he is also quite squishy. His switch in options are quite limited.

 

Switch in on slowking is a risk since:

SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 42-51 (30.2 - 36.6%) -- 55.1% chance to 3HKO

Slowking can also learn thunderwave so this 3HKO can really become an issue if Crawdaunt switch in on Surf or Thunderwave.

 

I think Crawdaunt actual ranking is fine. I don't see him as A+.

[DoubleJ]

Crawdaunt might be difficult to wall but he is also quite squishy. His switch in options are quite limited.

 

Switch in on slowking is a risk since:

SpA Slowking Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 42-51 (30.2 - 36.6%) -- 55.1% chance to 3HKO

Slowking can also learn thunderwave so this 3HKO can really become an issue if Crawdaunt switch in on Surf or Thunderwave.

 

I think Crawdaunt actual ranking is fine. I don't see him as A+.

 

Any Choice Band sweeper that switches into Thunder Wave is going to have a bad time, outside of Limber Hitmonlee ofc. But nevertheless that Surf damage is inconsequential in my opinion, considering it is a possible 4HKO and you still have Wish passing from Chansey if you can pull it off. 

 

Crawdaunt's albeit slow, but effective, speed, coupled with its STAB Crunch that is resisted by only a few of our common pokes makes this thing a behemoth. Physical sweepers aren't meant to take hits all that well, but fortunately this thing actually can. If a STAB move can 3HKO at it's best, then I think we have a pretty good counter on our hands. Add to that it's good physical bulk and you can take on quite a few threats that you might not OHKO, for example:

 

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crawdaunt: 96-113 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

While most Azu's are Choice Banded, this does give a pretty decent idea of the defensive power that Crawdaunt carries. 

[gbwead]

But what in the meta has changed to make Crawdaunt more viable?

Is Slowking the reason to play Crawdaunt? Is Crawdaunt more viable because of Slowking?

 

Like I said, Slowking has 2 common moves (surf/thudner wave) that does not let Crawdaunt set up. If he sets up DD, he dies to the 3OHKO Surf.

[DoubleJ]

But what in the meta has changed to make Crawdaunt more viable?
Is Slowking the reason to play Crawdaunt? Is Crawdaunt more viable because of Slowking?

Like I said, Slowking has 2 common moves (surf/thudner wave) that does not let Crawdaunt set up. If he sets up DD, he dies to the 3OHKO Surf.

He doesn't need to set up. He ohko's slowking and 2hko's a bunch of stuff with cb crunch.

Edit: and twave slowking isn't all that common Edited July 2, 2015 by DoubleJ

[gbwead]

He doesn't need to set up. He [could] ohko's slowking and 2hko's a bunch of stuff with cb crunch.

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Crawdaunt got average bulk and terrible speed for a CB user. What are his switch ins options? He is not Grandbull who deserves the A+ rank way more than him imo.

 

Breloom/Poliwarth can switch in on him quite safely. Chansey protect allows safe scouting. Vileplume or Slowking can then come in on waterfall and superpower. Steelix can come on crunch.

 

Edit: I just realised Crawdaunt was B+. I think moving him to A would be fine, but A+ is too much imo.

Edited July 2, 2015 by lamerb

[Arimanius]

and twave slowking isn't all that common

This^

If u use slowking with twave then u have to be a mono attacker or not calm mind and its offensive power is laughable so those uu cores we have right now will have a lot of fun, I've seen Raaidn using it pretty well. Crawdaunt A+

[Viking]

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 176-210 (87.1 - 103.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

 

Crawdaunt got average bulk and terrible speed for a CB user. What are his switch ins options? He is not Grandbull who deserves the A+ rank way more than him imo.

 

Breloom/Poliwarth can switch in on him quite safely. Chansey protect allows safe scouting. Vileplume or Slowking can then come in on waterfall and superpower. Steelix can come on crunch.

 

Edit: I just realised Crawdaunt was B+. I think moving him to A would be fine, but A+ is too much imo.

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 126-149 (93.3 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 63-75 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 79-93 (58.5 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Breloom is pretty weak and just got 2HKO by any offensive moves from crawdaunt.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 111-131 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 55-66 (33.3 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Belly brumer wrath can only switch on crabhammer, the best way to stop crawdaunt is vileplume and bulky poliwrath.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Poliwrath: 87-103 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Poliwrath: 43-51 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- 5.2% chance to 4HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 85-102 (46.7 - 56%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 54-63 (29.6 - 34.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Warning, crunch can hax vileplume's def.

 

edit : for protect to scout what crawdaunt hits, it's pretty predicatable to see a futur switch on steelix / plume / slowking. I don't think some people stay them choice banders after a protect scout.

If chansey protect on crunch i'll switch on something who can break steelix probably.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Viking

[gbwead]

Breloom is pretty weak and just got 2HKO by any offensive moves from crawdaunt.

Ya, but Breloom is faster so the second hit will never happen.

[DoubleJ]

It doesn't need to happen until the next time it has to switch in on Crawdaunt.

Breloom has no recovery.

Also that vileplume 2hko becomes more likely with only one layer of spikes

I think we've proved our point here so I'm not going to drag this out much further

As our best cb user with damn good coverage, I still propose it to be A+

[BurntZebra]

It doesn't need to happen until the next time it has to switch in on Crawdaunt.

Breloom has no recovery.

Also that vileplume 2hko becomes more likely with only one layer of spikes

I think we've proved our point here so I'm not going to drag this out much further

As our best cb user with damn good coverage, I still propose it to be A+

breloom has synthesis and leech seed (note my 10/10 gyara counter breloom somewhere in comp trash). If you really wanted to, you could run max hp/def breloom and beat any crawdaunt/sharpedo/kingler, but alas it can't really touch the ever present vileplume. Spikes isn't really a fair argument since you're assuming someone will run spikes actually, and the other person isn't running a rapid spinner. The only spiker that people actually run in UU is omastar and its pretty easy to pressure omastar or just run a rapid spinner like tentacruel. I think A is fine for crawdaunt since vileplume and steelix can pivot crawdaunt endlessly and crawdaunt doesn't really get switch ins outside of slowking. 

[gbwead]

Crawdaunt + Omastar on the same team seems like a reciepe for disaster imo.

[Barrage]

breloom has synthesis and leech seed (note my 10/10 gyara counter breloom somewhere in comp trash). If you really wanted to, you could run max hp/def breloom and beat any crawdaunt/sharpedo/kingler, but alas it can't really touch the ever present vileplume. Spikes isn't really a fair argument since you're assuming someone will run spikes actually, and the other person isn't running a rapid spinner. The only spiker that people actually run in UU is omastar and its pretty easy to pressure omastar or just run a rapid spinner like tentacruel. I think A is fine for crawdaunt since vileplume and steelix can pivot crawdaunt endlessly and crawdaunt doesn't really get switch ins outside of slowking.

Actually, a choice banded crunch almost 2hkos vileplume and while I recognize many people run protect, it is still very threatening to face a cb crawdaunt. Also return hurts breloom badly. Edited July 6, 2015 by Barrage

[DrCraig]

Hitmonlee has been moved from S Rank to A+ Rank

 

I think it's quite obvious but, the presence of Slowking and how common it is took a tole of the strength of Hitmonlee. It can no long snag sneaky Blaze Kick hits because of Slowking great bulk and ability to core with Hitmonlee already common counters, Vileplume, Exeggutor and Altaria. Thanks for the discussion guys.

 

Feel free to look at the first post and critique where you see necessary, lazy people.

[DrCraig]

For the sake of fine tuning this list, here is Rank B for you all to critique:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the UU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

 

B+ Rank:

Absol

Altaria

Blastoise

Breloom

Clefable

Claydol

Crawdaunt

Hypno

Kingler

Lanturn

Magmar

Omastar

Pikachu

Steelix

Xatu

Zangoose

 

B  Rank:

Aggron

Armaldo

Cradily

Donphan

Flareon

Golem

Haunter

Hitmontop

Kabutops

Lapras

Muk

Ninetales

Pinsir

Primeape

Quagsire

Shuckle

Tentacruel

Walrein

 

[spoiler]For those who are not aware or think I'm just spamming, this is a 'recap' of the list because I know not everybody will look at the first post to review the list, so instead I bring it to you. Feel free to discuss any problems you see. [/spoiler]

[Artemiseta]

crawduant in B+ rank?

same with Xatu, Hypno

Wassnt it discussed to be in A rank earlier

Xatu is walled too easily right now to warrant that high of a rank imo it is a very good pokemon but 1 dimensional especially with chansey around

Hypno I haven't seen enough on in UU tournies so I not sure but in a meta of pursuit trapping and hypno's weakness to that it seems a bit high maybe B-

[BurntZebra]

crawduant in B+ rank?

same with Xatu, Hypno

Wassnt it discussed to be in A rank earlier

Xatu is walled too easily right now to warrant that high of a rank imo it is a very good pokemon but 1 dimensional especially with chansey around

Hypno I haven't seen enough on in UU tournies so I not sure but in a meta of pursuit trapping and hypno's weakness to that it seems a bit high maybe B-

Xatu beats chansey usually because of synchronize and the massive amount of hp gained from giga drain. Early bird rest xatu also beats chansey but has problems with more offensive threats due to lack of coverage. 

 

On another note, I wouldn't mind seeing tentacruel get moved up some. It has a somewhat unique roll as a mix between utility with rapid spin, special sweeper with that base 100 speed, and tank with that nice special defense and liquid ooze to punish vileplumes who try to giga drain. Sure chansey is there but tentacruel usually gains enough hp back from leftovers and giga drain to negate any damage taken while switching in, especially vs something like omastar. It can also run a swords dance set with waterfall/return to beat its usual counters and possibly sweep at +2 or +4.