UU Viability Thread

[Gunthug]

I agree that Shadow punch BP is a problem. As for coverage, Ghost + fighting is better than ice + fighting.

theoretically, ghost/fighting covers more, but I meant ice/fighting was better coverage because ice punch hits more stuff harder than a very weak shadow punch (things like altaria, gligar, and claydol.) Meanwhile, the only thing I can think of that resists Ice/fighting is tentacruel, but tenta can't do much to Muk anyways - I'm not even sure a stab surf breaks muk's sub

 

edit: looks like it does, but not by much - and a careful/sassy muk can withstand it

 

252 SpA Tentacruel Surf vs. 188 HP / 60 SpD Muk: 57-67 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- 84.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edited June 3, 2015 by Gunthug

[caughtem]

 

theoretically, ghost/fighting covers more, but I meant ice/fighting was better coverage because ice punch hits more stuff harder than a very weak shadow punch (things like altaria, gligar, and claydol.) Meanwhile, the only thing I can think of that resists Ice/fighting is tentacruel, but tenta can't do much to Muk anyways - I'm not even sure a stab surf breaks muk's sub

 

edit: looks like it does, but not by much - and a careful/sassy muk can withstand it

 

252 SpA Tentacruel Surf vs. 188 HP / 60 SpD Muk: 57-67 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- 84.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Well there is thick fat grumpig, but yeah your point is still valid

[gbwead]

It really bothers me that vileplume sits at A with an usage stat of 49.34% and that A+ threats like Swellow and Manectric do not even get 9% of usage.

Even C rank Misdreavus gets more love than these 2!!!!

 

I know the viability thread does not rank the pokemons based on the usage stats since that would make this thread brainless. Yet, i think it is also a mistake to ignore those stats entirely. Even though Vileplume is not an offensive threat like the pokemons listed in A+ and S, he is the common denominator of most teams.

 

I am not saying that Swellow and Manectric should be moved down, but that some stuff should be moved up.

Edited June 6, 2015 by lamerb

[Viking]

It really bothers me that vileplume sits at A with an usage stat of 49.34% and that A+ threats like Swellow and Manectric do not even get 9% of usage.

Even C rank Misdreavus gets more love than these 2!!!!

 

I know the viability thread does not rank the pokemons based on the usage stats since that would make this thread brainless. Yet, i think it is also a mistake to ignore those stats entirely. Even though Vileplume is not an offensive threat like the pokemons listed in A+ and S, he is the common denominator of most teams.

 

I am not saying that Swellow and Manectric should be moved down, but that some stuff should be moved up.

theory / reality

[OrangeManiac]

It really bothers me that vileplume sits at A with an usage stat of 49.34% and that A+ threats like Swellow and Manectric do not even get 9% of usage.

Even C rank Misdreavus gets more love than these 2!!!!

 

I know the viability thread does not rank the pokemons based on the usage stats since that woudl make this thread brainless. Yet, i think it is also a mistake to ignore those stats entirely. Even though Vileplume is not an offensive threat like the pokemon listed in A+ and S, but he is the common denominator of most teams.

 

I am not saying that Swellow and Manectric should be moved down, but that some stuff should be moved up.

The thing about Vileplume is that often times it's quite a perfect role filler for bulk, it's unpredictable because it can be Sunny Day sweeper or it can counterstall the best wall special wall in the tier. However, a major thing about Vileplume is that a lot of Pokemon does beat it quite easily compared to something like Hitmonlee which needs much more team build against it. You need stuff like Hypno, Grumpig or something like that or you're in a lot of trouble. For Plume it isn't hard to find checks for them.

About Misdreavus, I think it's really good but needs the right team around it imo.

[gbwead]

The thing about Vileplume is that often times it's quite a perfect role filler for bulk, it's unpredictable because it can be Sunny Day sweeper or it can counterstall the best wall special wall in the tier. However, a major thing about Vileplume is that a lot of Pokemon does beat it quite easily compared to something like Hitmonlee which needs much more team build against it. You need stuff like Hypno, Grumpig or something like that or you're in a lot of trouble. For Plume it isn't hard to find checks for them.

About Misdreavus, I think it's really good but needs the right team around it imo.

 

Saying "a lot of pokemon [beat vileplume] quite easily" is a poor argument imo. Realistically, when you look at manectric, if chansey and porygon were not in the tier, he would be played more often then not. So having "a lot" of counters in the tier doesn't take away the pressure you put on the opponent. I'd rather play a pokemon that have 10 weak counters than a pokemon with 1 counter that your opponent will most likely play.

[Gunthug]

Saying "a lot of pokemon [beat vileplume] quite easily" is a poor argument imo. Realistically, when you look at manectric, if chansey and porygon were not in the tier, he would be played more often then not. So having "a lot" of counters in the tier doesn't take away the pressure you put on the opponent. I'd rather play a pokemon that have 10 weak counters than a pokemon with 1 counter that your opponent will most likely play.

I'm with lamerb here - Manectric shouldn't even be an A. Maybe B+. Here's the language from A that convinces me:

 

These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

 

Remember, we're talking about the current viability of these pokemon, not their theoretical power. With Chansey all over the place, I really don't think manectric is exerting a strong presence in the metagame - he's barely exerting ANY presence. Vileplume, I'm not sure if it's worth the A+ distinction but I think there's an argument to be made that it fits there.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Gunthug

[OrangeManiac]

Some theoretical power have to be taken consideration, otherwise this thread kinda serves no purpose since we have usage statistics tables. Yes, listing a Pokemon like Ninetales really high when it can destroy teams but no one uses because of how unreliable it is seems kinda pointless since no one uses it. A high usage of Pokemon doesn't automatically define it good either, sometimes you just need its role/typing or something of that regard for your team.

 

By the way if we look at the descriptions..

A rank states the Pokemon has a strong presence in the metagame. Strong is a quite powerful word stating that's a lot. While S rank doesn't state it has the "highest usage of the metagame", just that those Pokemon define the metagame. Well, when we see Vileplume around so much can we say it defines the metagame? Well, kinda yes and kinda not. It does for its own existance, but when a lot of different options can be used to take it down the metagame is diverse and that way does not define the metagame. Also it's hard to say when a Pokemon has "much more upsides than downsides" but when Plume has so many weaknesses, gets countered and even works as a set up bait to something like Magmar - Vileplume has quite a lot of downsides. But then again Lee's only downsides is that it can be hard countered quite hard and it's less used than Plume.

Also, let me state that this isn't a spawn simulator. The fact something like Hitmonlee is hard to farm is a factor of comp Lees not existing as much as some other Pokemon. This can be a reason why Lee isn't as much used as it possible could be. Not going to argue about Lee any further but just saying this is a possibility.

 

I'd rather play a pokemon that have 10 weak counters than a pokemon with 1 counter that your opponent will most likely play.

 

I would too and just for the record I never stated against this argument, otherwise I'd say Ninetales should be probably A rank. And look at it, it's NU.

Edited June 6, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Gunthug]

Some theoretical power have to be taken consideration, otherwise this thread kinda serves no purpose since we have usage statistics tables. Yes, listing a Pokemon like Ninetales really high when it can destroy teams but no one uses because of how unreliable it is seems kinda pointless since no one uses it. A high usage of Pokemon doesn't automatically define it good either, sometimes you just need its role/typing or something of that regard for your team.

 

By the way if we look at the descriptions..

A rank states the Pokemon has a strong presence in the metagame. Strong is a quite powerful word stating that's a lot. While S rank doesn't state it has the "highest usage of the metagame", just that those Pokemon define the metagame. Well, when we see Vileplume around so much can we say it defines the metagame? Well, kinda yes and kinda not. It does for its own existance, but when a lot of different options can be used to take it down the metagame is diverse and that way does not define the metagame. Also it's hard to say when a Pokemon has "much more upsides than downsides" but when Plume has so many weaknesses, gets countered and even works as a set up bait to something like Magmar - Vileplume has quite a lot of downsides. But then again Lee's only downsides is that it can be hard countered quite hard and it's less used than Plume.

Also, let me state that this isn't a spawn simulator. The fact something like Hitmonlee is hard to farm is a factor of comp Lees not existing as much as some other Pokemon. This can be a reason why Lee isn't as much used as it possible could be. Not going to argue about Lee any further but just saying this is a possibility.

 

 

I would too and just for the record I never stated against this argument, otherwise I'd say Ninetales should be probably A rank. And look at it, it's NU.

Honestly, just placing manectric at B+ would still be relying a lot on theoretical power. I otherwise agree with what youre saying, though

[gbwead]

Some theoretical power have to be taken consideration, otherwise this thread kinda serves no purpose since we have usage statistics tables. Yes, listing a Pokemon like Ninetales really high when it can destroy teams but no one uses because of how unreliable it is seems kinda pointless since no one uses it. A high usage of Pokemon doesn't automatically define it good either, sometimes you just need its role/typing or something of that regard for your team.

 

By the way if we look at the descriptions..

A rank states the Pokemon has a strong presence in the metagame. Strong is a quite powerful word stating that's a lot. While S rank doesn't state it has the "highest usage of the metagame", just that those Pokemon define the metagame. Well, when we see Vileplume around so much can we say it defines the metagame? Well, kinda yes and kinda not. It does for its own existance, but when a lot of different options can be used to take it down the metagame is diverse and that way does not define the metagame. Also it's hard to say when a Pokemon has "much more upsides than downsides" but when Plume has so many weaknesses, gets countered and even works as a set up bait to something like Magmar - Vileplume has quite a lot of downsides. But then again Lee's only downsides is that it can be hard countered quite hard and it's less used than Plume.

Also, let me state that this isn't a spawn simulator. The fact something like Hitmonlee is hard to farm is a factor of comp Lees not existing as much as some other Pokemon. This can be a reason why Lee isn't as much used as it possible could be. Not going to argue about Lee any further but just saying this is a possibility.

 

 

I would too and just for the record I never stated against this argument, otherwise I'd say Ninetales should be probably A rank. And look at it, it's NU.

I agree with most of what you are saying too, but I am not comparing Vileplume A to Hitmonlee S. I am comparing Vileplume A to Manectric A+.

 

I don't see the point of talking about the A rank definition since both Vileplume and Manectric are in this category (unless there is a A+ definition that I am not aware of).

[hr]

On another note, I believe the fact that pokemmo is not a spawn simulator is quite important. Hitmonlee does take more effort to breed. The same goes with Claydol, but also to a lot of other pokemons like Pikachu that require a lot of farming.

[DrCraig]

I agree with most of what you are saying too, but I am not comparing Vileplume A to Hitmonlee S. I am comparing Vileplume A to Manectric A+.

 

I don't see the point of talking about the A rank definition since both Vileplume and Manectric are in this category (unless there is a A+ definition that I am not aware of).

[hr]

On another note, I believe the fact that pokemmo is not a spawn simulator is quite important. Hitmonlee does take more effort to breed. The same goes with Claydol, but also to a lot of other pokemons like Pikachu that require a lot of farming.

You're taking people a bit to literally in reading their arguments dude.

The spawn simulator thing is more of an issue with usage arguments. However, you can't exert pressure on the meta if you don't exist. We have play some theorymon in here, it's unavoidable, but valid.

[hr]

whoa that straight line command is cool

[gbwead]

You're taking people a bit to literally in reading their arguments dude.

The spawn simulator thing is more of an issue with usage arguments. However, you can't exert pressure on the meta if you don't exist. We have play some theorymon in here, it's unavoidable, but valid.

[hr]

whoa that straight line command is cool

The spawn emulator comment has nothing to do with viability thread which is why i used the horizontal bar to seperate it.

 

I still don't understand why Hitmonlee's viability is relevant when talking about the viability of Vileplume: I am not saying Vileplume should be S. I think he should seriously be considered as a A+ at the sides of pokemon like Swellow and Manectric that I do not considerer more viable. In other words, if Manectric is A+, why is Vileplume not next to him? Right now the rankings are showing Manectric as "more viable" which I dont think is the case.
 

[ThinkNice]

Chansey is honestly S rank. It is THE face of stall teams which are like... the majority of successful UU teams. It defines the metagame around it and promotes stall play because how hard Chansey can shit on offensive teams. Protect fits perfectly on Chansey's moveset and makes it scout CB attacks with ease. It can not be set up on because of Seismic Toss, unlike Umbreon that could easily be set up on with a Sub or Boosting move. It's actually really hard to switch into Chansey because 1. your CBer will be useless against it 2. your setup mon can get hurt with Seismic Toss. We are seeing Vileplume and Steelix at a high usage because they support Chansey well but also because they generally do well against Chansey. Steelix absorbs Toxic just like Vileplume and has strong physical STABs while Vileplume can go for a PP stall or Leech it.

 

Chansey has an undeniable impact on the metagame. It doesn't matter it's fucking one dimensional because right now there is not one single Pokémon that can do what Chansey does in UU, it is literally the best at it's role and there is no reason not to have this on your stall team or hell even HO can stack their team with 5 sweepers + Chansey. It boggles me that this thing is in A rank, we don't have to be in denial guys. Chansey is straight up an S mon, and honestly also one of the reasons Hitmonlee is so fucking good right now. (it will be without Chansey but just a little less)

Edited June 6, 2015 by ThinkNice

[RysPicz]

Lee also needs support. It cannot deal with everything on it's own, but it does what it's supposed to do- destroy walls- exceptionally well, so it's S.

Chansey also needs support, but it does what it's supposed to do- shut down any special attacker- perfectly, best in tier. Plus it's an insane supporter, so I totally agree with Thinkie- Chansey needs S.

 

Also Kingler should be moved up. Both CB and SD sets are insane, plowing through competition without remorse. Only true counter of Kingler is Exeggutor, rest just has to gamble between getting OHKO/ 2hkoed by DEdge or STAB Crabhammer.

[Tyrone]

Along with your statement, add reasoning. If someone disagrees, add counter-arguments.

Avoid the pointless ping-pong disagreements without substance please.

[gbwead]

We are seeing Vileplume and Steelix at a high usage because they support Chansey well

Vileplume and Steelix are viable on their own. Vileplume has always been a amazing cleric and special wall and Steelix has always been an amazing physical tank.They were played before the split and after the split.

 

The viability of Chansey might be perfect as a special wall, but a special wall that give a lot of opportunities for the opposing team. If it wasn't for Vileplume and Steelix supporting Chansey, Swellow and Victreebel would get free switch ins and completly anihilate the opposing team.

 

Therefore, if Chansey moves to S rank (which i do not wish), he should be followed by Steelix and Vileplume.

 

Lets also not forget that Zangoose, Misdreavus and Haunter counters the Steelix/Vileplume/Chansey trio very well in their own way.

 

Zangoose comes in on chansey (with immunity) sets up SD and then threatens Steelix with a powerful low kick.

Misdreavus can come on everything beside toxic (and that it not really hard to predict) and set up Sub + CM and he will pp stall Chansey.
Haunter has proven in many tornament to do well against chansey too.

[fredrichnietze]

agree chansey---------->s rank. most of my thoughts have already been posted by others.

 

also hitmonchan. while NU it can do much of what lee does only with ice punch for the crobats/nidoqueens/altarias/gligars/vileplumes/ect that try to switch in vs cb fight moves. the extra coverage comes at the cost of less overall damage, but with all the coverage lee has + ice/thunder it's definitely good. maybe B or C? thoughts?

[DoubleJ]

agree chansey---------->s rank. most of my thoughts have already been posted by others.

 

also hitmonchan. while NU it can do much of what lee does only with ice punch for the crobats/nidoqueens/altarias/gligars/vileplumes/ect that try to switch in vs cb fight moves. the extra coverage comes at the cost of less overall damage, but with all the coverage lee has + ice/thunder it's definitely good. maybe B or C? thoughts?

 

C

 

It just doesn't have that incredible STAB Superpower that Lee has, and thus it can't wear down teams like Lee does. 

[DrCraig]

In light of the recent changes to UU
(https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/53984-pokemmo-official-usage-statistics-and-tier-lists/?p=1074095)
You can use this thread for discussion regarding new viability rankings or changes as well as general tier discussion. You can address questions such as:
-How do you feel like the unbans will effect the tier?
-What pokemon are more/less viable?
-Are these shits broken?

Just stay on topic, as usual.
How we feelin?

Edit: How u gonna move champ down and not hariyama?

Edited June 8, 2015 by DrCraig

[LionKIng]

In light of the recent changes to UU
(https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/53984-pokemmo-official-usage-statistics-and-tier-lists/?p=1074095)
You can use this thread for discussion regarding new viability rankings or changes as well as general tier discussion. You can address questions such as:
-How do you feel like the unbans will effect the tier?
-What pokemon are more/less viable?
-Are these shits broken?

Just stay on topic, as usual.
How we feelin?

im all for scizor umbreon and slowking, since they got banned unfairly. But as for  the other 3 charizard machamp and alakazam I think its a little overboard . I feel like with alakazam in the tier , running chansey or umbreon will be a must just to counter that thing or else its just gonna shread holes in all the walls we have.

 

Charizard is like a magmar but like 10x better , sure its attack stat is a little less good, but its typing makes up for it , also charizard has many viable sets that magmar wish he could run. On the top of my head i can name 4 good sets that charizard could run and they are all viable in the current meta, sub punch set, sword dance set, belly drum set, sp attacker set. Also Charizard gets like magmar a priority move to kill stuff that otherwise is faster then him. So basically Charizard you gotta scout his moveset and you can never expect what hes gonna do untill its too late and you lost a valuable (or multi) pokemons.

 

As for machamp, its just like a stronger azumaril for me, it may not ahve a stab waterfall but a stab super power makes up for it , also gets acces to all the ele punches and GUTS! And the bulk up set is actually viable on him.

Edited June 8, 2015 by LionKIng

[Robofiend]

im all for scizor umbreon and slowking, since they got banned unfairly. But as for  the other 3 charizard machamp and alakazam I think its a little overboard . I feel like with alakazam in the tier , running chansey or umbreon will be a must just to counter that thing or else its just gonna shread holes in all the walls we have.

 

Charizard is like a magmar but like 10x better , sure its attack stat is a little less good, but its typing makes up for it , also charizard has many viable sets that magmar wish he could run. On the top of my head i can name 4 good sets that charizard could run and they are all viable in the current meta, sub punch set, sword dance set, belly drum set, sp attacker set. Also Charizard gets like magmar a priority move to kill stuff that otherwise is faster then him. So basically Charizard you gotta scout his moveset and you can never expect what hes gonna do untill its too late and you lost a valuable (or multi) pokemons.

 

As for machamp, its just like a stronger azumaril for me, it may not ahve a stab waterfall but a stab super power makes up for it , also gets acces to all the ele punches and GUTS! And the bulk up set is actually viable on him.

 

But even with no Alakazam everyone uses Umbreon and Chansey - in fact, both are so good at stopping special attacks that it's almost crazy not to use one of them. So it's not like Alakazam's going to make anything that hasn't already been seen happen more.

 

Charizard's scary, but with Chansey around to stop the Sunny Day set, Quagsire around to stop the Belly Drum set, and some good priority users (Scizor, Pika) there's a couple of ways to stop it. Most importantly, Charizard makes Vileplume and Steelix less viable, and with both seeing high usage that's a good thing.

 

Slowking counters the shit out of 3/4 of Machamp's attacks.

[gbwead]

im all for scizor umbreon and slowking, since they got banned unfairly. But as for  the other 3 charizard machamp and alakazam I think its a little overboard . I feel like with alakazam in the tier , running chansey or umbreon will be a must just to counter that thing or else its just gonna shread holes in all the walls we have.

 

Charizard is like a magmar but like 10x better , sure its attack stat is a little less good, but its typing makes up for it , also charizard has many viable sets that magmar wish he could run. On the top of my head i can name 4 good sets that charizard could run and they are all viable in the current meta, sub punch set, sword dance set, belly drum set, sp attacker set. Also Charizard gets like magmar a priority move to kill stuff that otherwise is faster then him. So basically Charizard you gotta scout his moveset and you can never expect what hes gonna do untill its too late and you lost a valuable (or multi) pokemons.

 

As for machamp, its just like a stronger azumaril for me, it may not ahve a stab waterfall but a stab super power makes up for it , also gets acces to all the ele punches and GUTS!

 

I feel the same way; alakazam, charizard and machamp are completly broken. All three, A+ or S rank. They bring so much power to a tier that has nothing to handle them.

 

Not only is this depressing because the old meta - ya its old meta, because there is nothing left of it :( - was quite healthy, but also because these new pokemons overshadow a lot of the old threats of UU. This most likely mean some of those "old threats" will go down in usage, end up in NU and ruin that promising tier :( Sorry for digressing here.

 

The coverage of Alakazam, Charizard and Machamp is also riddiculous. Nothing can safely switch on them. I mean what could possibly switch in on Machamp elemental punches + stab? Charizard movepool makes him unpredictable to an extant where this is no longer competitive, it is just guessing game and if you mispredict there is no coming back. As for Zam, I haven't run the calcs yet, but I don't think Umbreon would be able to handle him, since Zam got signal beam and Umbreon only has weak pursuit. What am I missing? Please let me know, because I do not see any healthiness in unbanning these monsters.

[LionKIng]

But even with no Alakazam everyone uses Umbreon and Chansey - in fact, both are so good at stopping special attacks that it's almost crazy not to use one of them. So it's not like Alakazam's going to make anything that hasn't already been seen happen more.

 

Charizard's scary, but with Chansey around to stop the Sunny Day set, Quagsire around to stop the Belly Drum set, and some good priority users (Scizor, Pika) there's a couple of ways to stop it. Most importantly, Charizard makes Vileplume and Steelix less viable, and with both seeing high usage that's a good thing.

 

Slowking counters the shit out of 3/4 of Machamp's attacks.

so you are saying that because of the usage of villeplume and steelix you need to bring something down to screw the usage? now we will see a spike usage on quagsire, slowking and zard since they are the only things that can stop zard. But the only thing you missed is that theres more to just CB machamp , he can run bulk up per exemple and screw slowking hard in the face

 

anyways i just don't understand how this makes any sens. How can you say that a pokemon is a counter to an other pokemon when it walls 3/4 of its moves. With that logic Dragonite wouldnt be banned since skarmory, metagross walls 3/4 of his moves? I just don't get it tbh

[ThinkNice]

I feel the same way; alakazam, charizard and machamp are completly broken. All three, A+ or S rank. They bring so much power to a tier that has nothing to handle them.

 

Not only is this depressing because the old meta - ya its old meta, because there is nothing left of it :( - was quite healthy, but also because these new pokemons overshadow a lot of the old threats of UU. This most likely mean some of those "old threats" will go down in usage, end up in NU and ruin that promising tier :( Sorry for digressing here.

 

The coverage of Alakazam, Charizard and Machamp is also riddiculous. Nothing can safely switch on them. I mean what could possibly switch in on Machamp elemental punches + stab? Charizard movepool makes him unpredictable to an extant where this is no longer competitive, it is just guessing game and if you mispredict there is no coming back. As for Zam, I haven't run the calcs yet, but I don't think Umbreon would be able to handle him, since Zam got signal beam and Umbreon only has weak pursuit. What am I missing? Please let me know, because I do not see any healthiness in unbanning these monsters.

>UU was healthy

>lol

 

Saying Charizard is extremely unpredictable is an exaggeration. A lot of teams already carry things that deal with each set. For example both Quagsire and Chansey are extremely popular. If Charizard switches in you can safely switch to Quagsire the first turn, it will either set up Sun, use Flamethrower or use any other move that immediately let's you know what set it is. SunnDay set is extremely easily walled so I don't know why people say Charizard is going to be extremely versitale when in truth his best set is BellyZard.

 

so you are saying that because of the usage of villeplume and steelix you need to bring something down to screw the usage? now we will see a spike usage on quagsire, slowking and zard since they are the only things that can stop zard. But the only thing you missed is that theres more to just CB machamp , he can run bulk up per exemple and screw slowking hard in the face

 

anyways i just don't understand how this makes any sens. How can you say that a pokemon is a counter to an other pokemon when it walls 3/4 of its moves. With that logic Dragonite wouldnt be banned since skarmory, metagross walls 3/4 of his moves? I just don't get it tbh

No he didn't say that, he said that is just an effect of bringing Charizard down. If you read Tyrone's post you can see Vileplume or Steelix have nothing to do with it, it all had to do with 'how' these Pokémon were banned.

 

You did it, congratulations, you are now officially pooped for comparing Machamp to Dragonite. Yes, Skarmory walled three out of four moves but 1. Skarmory was the only thing that could reliably stop Dragonite. 2. Skarmory could be trapped by Magneton. 3. Dragonite has DD. 4. There are far more Pokémon that wall 3/4 of Machamp's moves than just Slowking (Claydol, Muk, Tentacruel), unlike with Dragonite. 5. do I have to go on

Edited June 8, 2015 by ThinkNice

[gbwead]

so you are saying that because of the usage of villeplume and steelix you need to bring something down to screw the usage? now we will see a spike usage on quagsire, slowking and zard since they are the only things that can stop zard. But the only thing you missed is that theres more to just CB machamp , he can run bulk up per exemple and screw slowking hard in the face

 

anyways i just don't understand how this makes any sens. How can you say that a pokemon is a counter to an other pokemon when it walls 3/4 of its moves. With that logic Dragonite wouldnt be banned since skarmory, metagross walls 3/4 of his moves? I just don't get it tbh

252+ Atk Machamp ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 78-94 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

if guts or bulk up

252+ Atk Guts Machamp ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 118-140 (58.4 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

This is broken.

 

+1 252+ SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Umbreon: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

This is also broken. Umbreon would have to run spdef ev in order to be viable which would hinder the special attackers even more than right now...

 

Edit:

Saying Charizard is extremely unpredictable is an exaggeration. A lot of teams already carry things that deal with each set. For example both Quagsire and Chansey are extremely popular. If Charizard switches in you can safely switch to Quagsire the first turn, it will either set up Sun, use Flamethrower or use any other move that immediately let's you know what set it is. SunnDay set is extremely easily walled so I don't know why people say Charizard is going to be extremely versitale when in truth his best set is BellyZard.

Charizard have a lot of viable sets. No one is forced to play the "best set" because that set might not synergize well with the rest of your team. Charizard can also pull off a DD set or a mixted attacker set and this is especially true in UU.

 

 

You did it, congratulations, you are now officially pooped for comparing Machamp to Dragonite. Yes, Skarmory walled three out of four moves but 1. Skarmory was the only thing that could reliably stop Dragonite. 2. Skarmory could be trapped by Magneton. 3. Dragonite has DD. 4. There are far more Pokémon that wall 3/4 of Machamp's moves than just Slowking (Claydol, Muk, Tentacruel), unlike with Dragonite. 5. do I have to go on

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is not reliable.

Edited June 8, 2015 by lamerb