UU Viability Thread

[LionKIng]

>UU was healthy

>lol

 

Saying Charizard is extremely unpredictable is an exaggeration. A lot of teams already carry things that deal with each set. For example both Quagsire and Chansey are extremely popular. If Charizard switches in you can safely switch to Quagsire the first turn, it will either set up Sun, use Flamethrower or use any other move that immediately let's you know what set it is. SunnDay set is extremely easily walled so I don't know why people say Charizard is going to be extremely versitale when in truth his best set is BellyZard.

 

No he didn't say that, he said that is just an effect of bringing Charizard down. If you read Tyrone's post you can see Vileplume or Steelix have nothing to do with it, it all had to do with 'how' these Pokémon were banned.

 

You did it, congratulations, you are now officially pooped for comparing Machamp to Dragonite. Yes, Skarmory walled three out of four moves but 1. Skarmory was the only thing that could reliably stop Dragonite. 2. Skarmory could be trapped by Magneton. 3. Dragonite has DD. 4. There are far more Pokémon that wall 3/4 of Machamp's moves than just Slowking (Claydol, Muk, Tentacruel), unlike with Dragonite. 5. do I have to go on

im just saying that in a wall heavy meta with no chance of using any special attackers, bulk up machamp shits on eveyrthing and it can sure be compared to dragonite. It will 2hit k.o any of its ''counters'' with only 1 bulk up, its bulky enough to kill sp attackers that try to kill it

 

Anyways, im pretty sure everyone is gonna say the same thing as I do, with probably better arguments and come in the same conclusion, zard machamp and zam is too good for the UU meta

 

Having to bring 3 pokemons to counter a single charizard set is not healthy for the meta, in no way shape or form is it healhthy lol

 

 

 

Can we for once have people that play the damn game on the tier council isntead of people that theorymon everything without even thinking before doing something that changes the whole damn meta. Its already hard enough to adapt to the ever changing meta without having to bring 3 new OP pokemons that if you don't use you are retarded and that needs like 10 movesets (charizard) to then come to the conclusion once you wasted 5m into breeding these pokemons that ooo we are sorry they were indeed too strong for the UU meta and now we have to ban them and GG WP you pokemons are fucking uselesss now untill the day we decide to screw up again and try to bring them down to fuck with you huehuehuehue, we can do waht ever we want we don't play the game and we have all the power in the world to decide what you aregonna use. This is just fucking bull shitt.

Edited June 8, 2015 by LionKIng

[ThinkNice]

im just saying that in a wall heavy meta with no chance of using any special attackers, bulk up machamp shits on eveyrthing and it can sure be compared to dragonite. It will 2hit k.o any of its ''counters'' with only 1 bulk up, its bulky enough to kill sp attackers that try to kill it

 

Anyways, im pretty sure everyone is gonna say the same thing as I do, with probably better arguments and come in the same conclusion, zard machamp and zam is too good for the UU meta

 

Having to bring 3 pokemons to counter a single charizard set is not healthy for the meta, in no way shape or form is it healhthy lol

Well I'm not saying it's healthy or going to be, I'm not saying it's going to be unhealthy either. Truth is we don't really know how the meta is going to adapt to things. These unbans were made because of how bad their suspect process was, not because we thought they'd fix the metagame, although we hope it will with maybe a few bans.

[LionKIng]

Well I'm not saying it's healthy or going to be, I'm not saying it's going to be unhealthy either. Truth is we don't really know how the meta is going to adapt to things. These unbans were made because of how bad their suspect process was, not because we thought they'd fix the metagame, although we hope it will with maybe a few bans.

well tahts what robo said, can you guys get your stuff together and at least try to argument in the same direction? cuz now its me vs tier council vs thinknice, vs robo, vs senile vs everyone. Isnt tier council supposed to have the same decisions all together? 

[gbwead]

Well I'm not saying it's healthy or going to be, I'm not saying it's going to be unhealthy either. Truth is we don't really know how the meta is going to adapt to things. These unbans were made because of how bad their suspect process was, not because we thought they'd fix the metagame, although we hope it will with maybe a few bans.

What are the few bans you have in mind?

[LionKIng]

What are the few bans you have in mind?

charizard, machamp and zam hueee

[EyWey]

Why Machamp but no Hariyama?
The only role Hari does better than Machamp is a tank set thanks whirlwind and thick fat, but Machamp has better stats.

Without a really good bulky ghost in the tier I do not see how Machamp can be stoped

[DoubleJ]

On my phone, but like most im a little nervous about machamp. Zam can be handled by the chansey, as well as a bulky steelix. Charizard frightens a lot but that just means the meta is really going to change, possibly for the better.

[NikhilR]

Instead of banning Chansey and making the UU tier look different (only time will tell if a good or bad sort of different) for a change, they bring back some of the banned pokemon like umbreon, slowking, scizor which will make the tier more unhealthy af.

 

I played UU when all of those were around and so I am definitely in no mood to play it again. Have fun using Slowking in every team to try to counter Machamp and Scizor. Have fun using Chansey / Umbreon to stop Slowking from setting up. Have fun using Scizor for the best switch in for Umbreon and Chansey. This is just a crazy circle. 

 

Sorry for this "non productive" post but I really wish the UU tier council would've listened to the community for a change. A suspect ban for chansey would've been fine enough to see if there was change in the meta, but instead you all do this. 

[gbwead]

If the Council states in the Announcement of UU tier list changes that "a complete reset of UU is not something we'd like to do", why is Slowking the only potential counter to Machamp? If a recently unbanned pokemon (slowking) is the only counter to another recently unbanned pokemon (machamp), isn't that itself a complete reset of UU?

The bases of the UU meta have completly changed. :(

 

Edit:

 

A suspect ban for chansey would've been fine enough to see if there was change in the meta, but instead you all do this. 

I was against chansey's ban, but it would have been better imo than the recent changes.

Edited June 8, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

If the Council states in the Announcement of UU tier list changes that "a complete reset of UU is not something we'd like to do", why is Slowking the only potential counter to Machamp? If a recently unbanned pokemon (slowking) is the only counter to another recently unbanned pokemon (machamp), isn't that itself a complete reset of UU?

The bases of the UU meta have completly changed. :(

 

Edit:

 

I was against chansey's ban, but it would have been better imo than the recent changes.

Well you know, there's exeggutor, hypno, claydol, alakazam, and misdreavus that can take on machamp, and machamp only gets to come in vs walls really, doesn't have the bulk to come in vs sweepers. People were not happy with the stall based meta, so UU tier council brought down machamp and the other pokes in an attempt to balance the tier, keeping offense and stall equally viable to an extent. If machamp is too powerful after the first UU tournament (which I imagine it will since it has great bulk, allowing it to take on any of its counters and killing them, at the cost of taking a psychic, ranging anywhere from 55-95% damage), then it'll be moved back up. 

[flavajabari]

and machamp only gets to come in vs walls really, doesn't have the bulk to come in vs sweepers.

If machamp is too powerful after the first UU tournament (which I imagine it will since it has great bulk

 

make up your mind pls

Edited June 8, 2015 by flavajabari

[Viking]

What are the few bans you have in mind?

vileplume / chansey

 

those both made the tier so slow

[BurntZebra]

make up your mind pls

there are different levels of bulk. Machamp doesn't have the bulk to take 2 cb attacks or 2 strong special attacks, but does have the bulk to bulk up as exeggutor/slowking/claydol comes in, ice punch, take a psychic, and then kill with a second ice punch. 

[DrCraig]

I know its not directly stated, but I interpret the moves as ways to deal with stall. I think they were moved down with reasons covering up the ultimate intent. Obviously patching up stall isn't how tiering works, so I think it was covered up. But hey that's me.

The problem for me with the bans doesnt have to do with playstyles being viable or pokemon being OP. I believe that with these undeniably strong pokemon, not running multiple of them is foolish. People are going to run the best pokemon no matter what, I know, but these pokemon are, bear with me, a viability tier ahead of the rest. There is a gap between the top tier 1% and the rest of the tier. Not running scizor, champ, umby, zard, king, zam or chansey together in teams, again, is foolish. What reason is there not to run two or more of these? I think at the point where this many pokemon are staples, there is a meta health issue.

[RysPicz]

I am very skeptical about the whole situation. It's exactly like Nik said- we do not need more OP, S-rank pokemons in UU to make it more enjoyable. We need Chansey out of it.

I sometimes feel like tier council is sitting on chair, looking at tier and asking itself "what can we do now to screw up more players?". Come on guys, look at posts of us, players. We did not ask to bring them down. We simply do not need them.

We need Chansey out.

[gbwead]

Well you know, there's exeggutor, hypno, claydol, alakazam, and misdreavus that can take on machamp, and machamp only gets to come in vs walls really, doesn't have the bulk to come in vs sweepers. People were not happy with the stall based meta, so UU tier council brought down machamp and the other pokes in an attempt to balance the tier, keeping offense and stall equally viable to an extent. If machamp is too powerful after the first UU tournament (which I imagine it will since it has great bulk, allowing it to take on any of its counters and killing them, at the cost of taking a psychic, ranging anywhere from 55-95% damage), then it'll be moved back up. 

Thief and Ice punch can deal with all of those quite easily. Bad predict and Machamp kill the only thing that can counter him. Thats pretty OP.

 

With Slowking back in the metagame, there will be probably more toxic users as well which mean activating guts will be more easy.

Edited June 8, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

I am very skeptical about the whole situation. It's exactly like Nik said- we do not need more OP, S-rank pokemons in UU to make it more enjoyable. We need Chansey out of it.

I sometimes feel like tier council is sitting on chair, looking at tier and asking itself "what can we do now to screw up more players?". Come on guys, look at posts of us, players. We did not ask to bring them down. We simply do not need them.

We need Chansey out.

actually sitting on my couch right now kek. If chansey was banned, people would just run umbreon as a special wall, and umbreon is not banworthy under any characteristic. Chansey is not banworthy either since it has no offense and is easily killed by physical attackers. Protect is a shit argument since every pokemon besides wynaut/ditto/weird pokemon learns it, same goes for toxic. Its not like these tier changes are going to be permanent either, machamp might be moved back up, possibly along with others, depending on how the meta looks in the next UU tournament.

[DrCraig]

@Forf/Nik
That's what I'm saying, but instead of even taking time to reply to my discussion request and make a chansey thread they do these moves. Why couldn't a thread be made to discuss chansey? Why couldn't these moves be proposed on the chansey thread? Chansey was CLEARLY the topic tht should've been addressed. This is just dancing around the issue with an alternative move (which has previously been denied as a method of tiering). Jeez I'm derailing my own thread

Alright, I doubt the council will revert the changes because then they'll look stupid-er. So viability ranks.

I'm thinking
Scizor > S
Slowking > S
Machamp > A+
Alakazam > A+
Umbreon > A+
Charizard > S
Chansey > A+

I'm on my phone, I'll reason soon...

Edited June 8, 2015 by DrCraig

[RysPicz]

actually sitting on my couch right now kek. If chansey was banned, people would just run umbreon as a special wall, and umbreon is not banworthy under any characteristic. Chansey is not banworthy either since it has no offense and is easily killed by physical attackers. Protect is a shit argument since every pokemon besides wynaut/ditto/weird pokemon learns it, same goes for toxic. Its not like these tier changes are going to be permanent either, machamp might be moved back up, possibly along with others, depending on how the meta looks in the next UU tournament.

Is that an opinion I should count as personal or from whole council? Either way, this exactly, perfectly shows how much you (council) read our posts. You don't think Chansey is banworthy? 90% of UU community does and we were voicing it for a pretty while. So what that it has no offense and is easily killed by physical attackers? It makes special-attacking pokes totally unviable, forcing us to run more physical-oriented teams which are even easier to wall when you have 5 slots of walls except Chansey to cover them all, promoting stall playstyle. But nope, bringing down 3 other broken pokes is much better way to deal with the real problem (Chansey) rather than disposing of it. Cone on.

 

Personally I'm all up for it- Scizor and Machamp are my bros, offensive playstyle is my home, bring it on. But my personal opinion and preferences do not make a healthy and enjoyable UU for everyone.

 

I'd like to remind you, that council is for the community and not the other way around. If such a big amount of players feels that UU isn't enjoyable because of Chansey, it should disappear.

 

@Craig

 

Chansey S imo

Edited June 8, 2015 by RysPicz

[NikhilR]

actually sitting on my couch right now kek. If chansey was banned, people would just run umbreon as a special wall, and umbreon is not banworthy under any characteristic. Chansey is not banworthy either since it has no offense and is easily killed by physical attackers. Protect is a shit argument since every pokemon besides wynaut/ditto/weird pokemon learns it, same goes for toxic. Its not like these tier changes are going to be permanent either, machamp might be moved back up, possibly along with others, depending on how the meta looks in the next UU tournament.

 

I'm talking about before these changes were made, let the UU tier stay as it is and ban chansey. I feel that Umbreon is less banworthy compared to Chansey because of how it gets statused, can't break subs and very little offensive presence

 

Again I don't understand how people find seismic toss not offensive enough. If your pokemon can break a sub then that's enough offensive presence for me. Protect is NOT a shit argument. You run protect on any pokemon, bar chansey, then you have to give up something for it. I run protect on exegg but I give up toxic or leech for that. I run protect on vileplume so then I have to give up aromatherapy for that. Chansey loses nothing when running protect because it has NC.

 

I saw the counters you listed for Machamp as Hypno, Claydol, Exegg. Now imagine the synergy between Machamp and Scizor. Scizor comes in on anything that can take a hit from Machamp and reaches +2 easily that turn. 

 

@Forf/Nik
That's what I'm saying, but instead of even taking time to reply to my discussion request and make a chansey thread they do these moves. Why couldn't a thread be made to discuss chansey? Why couldn't these moves be proposed on the chansey thread? Chansey was CLEARLY the topic tht should've been addressed. This is just dancing around the issue with an alternative move (which has previously been denied as a method of tiering). Jeez I'm derailing my own thread
 

 

They have enough time to bring back some of the OP pokemon but don't have time to respond to a request thread. If you're not going to respond to these request threads then what's the point of having it? It's just an unnecessary formality and there for the sake of it. 

 

I'm very curious to hearing the justification from all 3 council members of how they reached this decision.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Noad

[Gunthug]

I'm talking about before these changes were made, let the UU tier stay as it is and ban chansey. I feel that Umbreon is less banworthy compared to Chansey because of how it gets statused, can't break subs and very little offensive presence

 

Again I don't understand how people find seismic toss not offensive enough. If your pokemon can break a sub then that's enough offensive presence for me. Protect is NOT a shit argument. You run protect on any pokemon, bar chansey, then you have to give up something for it. I run protect on exegg but I give up toxic or leech for that. I run protect on vileplume so then I have to give up aromatherapy for that. Chansey loses nothing when running protect because it has NC.

 

I saw the counters you listed for Machamp as Hypno, Claydol, Exegg. Now imagine the synergy between Machamp and Scizor. Scizor comes in on anything that can take a hit from Machamp and reaches +2 easily that turn.

But seismic toss isn't guarunteed to break a sub (coolio set up a bellywalrein in the tourney yesterday v. a chansey, and if his opponent didnt have a roar stoise it woulda been gg). Also, as for the point about hypno/claydol/exegg being free switches for scizor, i disagree. Hypno can cripple scizor with a twave, and both claydol and exegg are very viable HP fire users

 

Now, as for the changes as a whole, I'm a little skeptical. Then again, I wasn't convinced that UU was unhealthy in the first place - I still don't think chansey is banworthy, but I dont think the tier needed the "shot in the arm" that the council just gave it. However, we'll see how it goes - tinkering with a tier is the council's job, especially when the community insists there's a problem. I don't think all the 'new' additions will stay, but maybe some of them will find a place in UU and the tier will be better off for it

[Senile]

I'm talking about before these changes were made, let the UU tier stay as it is and ban chansey. I feel that Umbreon is less banworthy compared to Chansey because of how it gets statused, can't break subs and very little offensive presence

 

Again I don't understand how people find seismic toss not offensive enough. If your pokemon can break a sub then that's enough offensive presence for me. Protect is NOT a shit argument. You run protect on any pokemon, bar chansey, then you have to give up something for it. I run protect on exegg but I give up toxic or leech for that. I run protect on vileplume so then I have to give up aromatherapy for that. Chansey loses nothing when running protect because it has NC.

 

I saw the counters you listed for Machamp as Hypno, Claydol, Exegg. Now imagine the synergy between Machamp and Scizor. Scizor comes in on anything that can take a hit from Machamp and reaches +2 easily that turn. 

 

 

It's clearly visible that the council doesn't give a fuck about the community. They have enough time to bring back some of the OP pokemon but don't have time to respond to a request thread. If you're not going to respond to these request threads then what's the point of having it? It's just an unnecessary formality and there for the sake of it. 

 

I'm very curious to hearing the justification from all 3 council members of how they reached this decision.

The discussion request thread wasn't responded to, and chansey isn't banned/being discussed, because of the fact things were going to be moved down. The Umbreon ban was turnt over because it violated tier policy, with little to no actual justification; basically no time was given to actually properly discuss/use Umbreon, and the justification for the ban itself just made no sense within policy. As a result, Umbreon, and the pokemon which were banned after it (Scizor/Slowking) are being unbanned. I doubt I really need to explain this, since these seem to be the unbans people have the least problems with anyway, kek.

 

As for the other 3, Alakazam, Charizard, and Machamp; Alakazam was literally never given a chance to be tested, as it got banned with Espeon, so we're giving it one. It's that simple. Charizard, people seemed to agree that it wasn't given much time, and was worth testing, so it's being moved down.

 

...I'm actually not entirely sure why Machamp got moved down. I blame Tyrone. #EverythingIsTyrone'sFault

 

tl;dr: Umbreon, Scizor, Slowking staying unb& for a while. Alakazam also staying for a while at least, was never given a shot. Charizard will probably be the first pokemon suspected/moved up if it ends up being moved back up, but that's up to the UU council. I'm down for reverting the Machamp decision though.

[NikhilR]

But seismic toss isn't guarunteed to break a sub (coolio set up a bellywalrein in the tourney yesterday v. a chansey, and if his opponent didnt have a roar stoise it woulda been gg). Also, as for the point about hypno/claydol/exegg being free switches for scizor, i disagree. Hypno can cripple scizor with a twave, and both claydol and exegg are very viable HP fire users

 

Now, as for the changes as a whole, I'm a little skeptical. Then again, I wasn't convinced that UU was unhealthy in the first place - I still don't think chansey is banworthy, but I dont think the tier needed the "shot in the arm" that the council just gave it. However, we'll see how it goes - tinkering with a tier is the council's job, especially when the community insists there's a problem. I don't think all the 'new' additions will stay, but maybe some of them will find a place in UU and the tier will be better off for it

 

Thats the whole point gunthug. You're forced to run pokemon that can have hp of 200+ just so that sub doesn't get broken. This means that Chansey's "offensive" presence is offensive enough for a large part of the UU tier bar the few pokemon who can have hp of 200+ . You're right about Hypno crippling Scizor with twave but then you're forced to sack an important move like signal beam/seismic toss since psychic/wish/protect is now a must for Hypno. Also while Hypno twaves Scizor, all it does is slow down Scizor but 1v1, scizor still wins. 

 

 

Uh I can say Exegg is a viable hp fire user because of its nice spak base stat although even though this shouldn't be considered when it comes to tiering, where am I gonna find a hp fire exegg? When it comes to Claydol, Scizor can invest enough bulk so that HP fire is a 3hko, so Scizor still wins 1v1. 

 

 

The discussion request thread wasn't responded to, and chansey isn't banned/being discussed, because of the fact things were going to be moved down. The Umbreon ban was turnt over because it violated tier policy, with little to no actual justification; basically no time was given to actually properly discuss/use Umbreon, and the justification for the ban itself just made no sense within policy. As a result, Umbreon, and the pokemon which were banned after it (Scizor/Slowking) are being unbanned. I doubt I really need to explain this, since these seem to be the unbans people have the least problems with anyway, kek.

 

As for the other 3, Alakazam, Charizard, and Machamp; Alakazam was literally never given a chance to be tested, as it got banned with Espeon, so we're giving it one. It's that simple. Charizard, people seemed to agree that it wasn't given much time, and was worth testing, so it's being moved down.

 

...I'm actually not entirely sure why Machamp got moved down. I blame Tyrone. #EverythingIsTyrone'sFault

 

tl;dr: Umbreon, Scizor, Slowking staying unb& for a while. Alakazam also staying for a while at least, was never given a shot. Charizard will probably be the first pokemon suspected/moved up if it ends up being moved back up, but that's up to the UU council. I'm down for reverting the Machamp decision though.

 

Thanks for the input Senile. I honestly don't mind Umbreon since I find it way better than Chansey. You're right about Slowking and Scizor being some of the few unbans people having the least problem with, but it is still a problem. With Slowking, it is an absolute must to carry a toxic user to cripple it from setting up. Unfortunately there is no single banded powerful physical move in UU to 1 shot this thing (pls don't say Ariados' Megahorn). In OU, Slowbro despite having an enormous base def, could be killed by +2 Adamant Rhydon with Megahorn or Heracross. Jolteon is used to stop a +1 CM Slowbro. Whereas Manectric cant stop a +1 CM Slowking. My point is that UU doesn't have enough offensive power to deal with Slowking. 

 

Not sure about Alakazam as well because I think Steelix/Kanga/Quagsire can handle it. Swellow/Houndoom can be used to pursuit trap it also. But at the same time it's pretty fucking strong when it gets CM going. 

 

Gonna have to see how Charizard does. Bellydrum, Sunny day , Swords Dance, Dragon Dance ( :P) are some of the various sets it has, and the counters for each of these sets vary, so it's gonna be interesting to see how people deal with it. 

[Gunthug]

Thats the whole point gunthug. You're forced to run pokemon that can have hp of 200+ just so that sub doesn't get broken. This means that Chansey's "offensive" presence is offensive enough for a large part of the UU tier bar the few pokemon who can have hp of 200+ . You're right about Hypno crippling Scizor with twave but then you're forced to sack an important move like signal beam/seismic toss since psychic/wish/protect is now a must for Hypno. Also while Hypno twaves Scizor, all it does is slow down Scizor but 1v1, scizor still wins. 

 

 

Uh I can say Exegg is a viable hp fire user because of its nice spak base stat although even though this shouldn't be considered when it comes to tiering, where am I gonna find a hp fire exegg? When it comes to Claydol, Scizor can invest enough bulk so that HP fire is a 3hko, so Scizor still wins 1v1. 

Well I think theres a high reward to running a poke with 200+ hp on your team right now. If your opponent has a chansey, enjoy your free set up (belly walrein, DD lapras will appreciate this. Even DD whiscash can get 51 hp subs, cant it?). It puts an enormous amount of pressure on your opponent when you get a set up poke behind a sub, as their phazer (if they have one) can only take so much damage, given the relatively weak phazers we have in UU. If your opponent DOESNT have chansey, youve still got a high HP set up pokemon with subs to block status, weaker attacks - in a stall meta, this can only be a good thing.

 

I will agree that scizor can still beat hypno/exegg/claydol 1 on 1, but theyre not helpless against it. Claydol is probably the worst example since that hp fire just isn't too strong, but naturally scizor, being a strong poke, will have pokemon that it can come in on. In the end, I don't think scizor will prove too much for our meta, but hey I could be wrong. Machamp seems to be the biggest quesiton mark right now, although alakazam is gonna be downright scary and I don't think itll stay either.

 

 

With Slowking, it is an absolute must to carry a toxic user to cripple it from setting up. Unfortunately there is no single banded powerful physical move in UU to 1 shot this thing (pls don't say Ariados' Megahorn).

lel i was about to

[fredrichnietze]

I'm very curious to hearing the justification from all 3 council members of how they reached this decision.

k

 

so as senile said umbreon ban was unjustified. as a result zam/slowking were banned from a meta that was incomplete. for char/champ/zam, i was against zam ban in the first place. jolly swellow outspeeds and 1hko's zam and can pursuit it, plus zam is 1-2hko by nearly all priority. just about every pursuit trapper can 1hko zam and zam no longer has the godly coverage it once had with e punches. even umbreon, chansey, and spec wall khan around to shit on it all day. champ i was against but got outvoted. char im on the fence towards but a lot of people who's opinions i respect believe it's worth testing and i trust them.