SpartacusGD Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 snorlax doesnt even look like he was the top used pokemon b4 the ban. I find tha odd since b4 he was banned the first time he was consistently the most used poke. Its because while lax was banned, people were forced to use blissey and that made many people realize just how much better blissey sponges sp attacks, thats why blissey gained more fans. Link to comment
codylramey Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Well i know that the one time i used bliss in the psl it was bc i noticed that everyones teams were overcentralized around lax. Bliss can prevent a lot of lax counters from switching in. Rhydon cant switch in w/o prediction, flygon is str8 out 1hkod by icebeam, bliss can stop a sub punch gengar from setting up, and she doesnt give a fuck about WoW weez or gengar. Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Well i know that the one time i used bliss in the psl it was bc i noticed that everyones teams were overcentralized around lax. Bliss can prevent a lot of lax counters from switching in. Rhydon cant switch in w/o prediction, flygon is str8 out 1hkod by icebeam, bliss can stop a sub punch gengar from setting up, and she doesnt give a fuck about WoW weez or gengar. In fact, even i (vermiion ch 1 hue) noticed blissey was a bit more popular before this test ban. In the end Blissey is immensely superior as a wall, it can even reliably stall ph attackers such as aerodactyl. Dunno, i think people are overestimating curselax a lil bit, it can't setup that easily. Link to comment
SpartacusGD Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 In fact, even i (vermiion ch 1 hue) noticed blissey was a bit more popular before this test ban. In the end Blissey is immensely superior as a wall, it can even reliably stall ph attackers such as aerodactyl. Dunno, i think people are overestimating curselax a lil bit, it can't setup that easily. exactly what ive been saying for months now, overestimation to the point all these continious test bans are just unreasonable. all my opinion, for people who think curselax/snorlax is op, i respect your opinions but for me its not. Link to comment
Arimanius Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) Yeah I think like you guys but the thing is they BOTH made special attackers so useless that's not even funny, that's why the test ban, in my opinion snorlax < blissey cause she can take a hit man but the problem with snorlax is that fucking parahax that along with curse can give u a hard time. I've been enjoying this meta though, don't know about u guys Edited June 25, 2015 by Arimanius Link to comment
SpartacusGD Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yeah I think like you guys but the thing is they BOTH made special attackers so useless that's not even funny, that's why the test ban, in my opinion snorlax < blissey cause she can take a hit man but the problem with snorlax is that fucking parahax that along with curse can give u a hard time. I've been enjoying this meta though, don't know about u guys Thing about this meta is sp atakers became too strong which leads to the part where pretty much p2 is a must have, cm espy fake tears growth jolt gosh, just too fckin strong. Include gengar in the list too, resistances wont cut it vs these blazin fast sweapers all game Link to comment
DrCraig Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't see the fun of a meta where i am forced to use shitty pokes. In lax blissey meta i wasnt forced to either use both i could go full offensive or special with nice traps for lax/bliss. The problem is people like this Blissey and Snorlax are not 'OP,' but they definitely fill their role as special walls the best and we all know that. Now, as I've said, we are too used to only defending against physical attacks. We don't have a god wall for physical attacks like we do for special, so we run cores and multiple walls, ya know, arc/skarm and shit. Now we are faced with a parallel situation on the specially defensive spectrum where we do not have a god wall. I'm not going to deny some pokemon are indeed 'too good,' but I think it is just a meta we aren't used to. Nobody has had to handle physical and special attacks in their wall teams at the same time because they could just throw a fat blob in, and now that it is more difficult to run walls and get safe switches, everybody is out of their comfort zone, and complaining. Robofiend and Arimanius 2 Link to comment
Arimanius Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't see the fun of a meta where i am forced to use shitty pokes. In lax blissey meta i wasnt forced to either use both i could go full offensive or special with nice traps for lax/bliss. But why are they shitty pokes? Because they can't stop every special attacker like blissey and snorlax do? Like craig said you can break a physical wall with a physical pokemon like heracross or ursaring or rhydon or marowak, etc etc with one sword dance and stuff but with special attackers you can't break Blissey or Snorlax, you would need +4 or even more to do it so I think right now we have something more even, you need to plan things right and think more. But like I said just my opinion. DrCraig 1 Link to comment
codylramey Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 The problem is people like this Blissey and Snorlax are not 'OP,' but they definitely fill their role as special walls the best and we all know that. Now, as I've said, we are too used to only defending against physical attacks. We don't have a god wall for physical attacks like we do for special, so we run cores and multiple walls, ya know, arc/skarm and shit. Now we are faced with a parallel situation on the specially defensive spectrum where we do not have a god wall. I'm not going to deny some pokemon are indeed 'too good,' but I think it is just a meta we aren't used to. Nobody has had to handle physical and special attacks in their wall teams at the same time because they could just throw a fat blob in, and now that it is more difficult to run walls and get safe switches, everybody is out of their comfort zone, and complaining. Special attackers are a lot faster tho. Thats is the biggest things that sets the two worlds apart. But in general i agree with this. I enjoy what little of the meta i have seen, much more freedom, Ive never felt forced to run inferior pokes. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Special attackers are a lot faster tho. Thats is the biggest things that sets the two worlds apart. But in general i agree with this. I enjoy what little of the meta i have seen, much more freedom, Ive never felt forced to run inferior pokes. Speed is an important factor of why to use special attackers, IMO. However, as we all know, speed's useless if you can't even finish off a damaged wall. Not really sure what anyone would mean by complaining by saying "I have to use shitty pokemon" - just makes me think "WELL FUCK GUYS WE BANNED SALAMENCE AND DROGONIT SO NOW I GOTTA USE FRICKIN HERACROSS." Of course, Blissey and Snorlax were (test) banned for different reasons, but I'd like to point out that your "liking" the meta has nothing to do with it actually working as a balanced, competitive environment. I loved when Genesect was in XY OU early on, but it was also pretty obviously unhealthy for the metagame (I could say the same of Landorus-I). Basically the whole idea of tiering is to take your own feels out of the game (as much as possible) and evaluate things on their merits and harms. Link to comment
lVlusay Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I was absent for quite sometime, just came back and we have blissey and snorlax test banned, just wow. Now people are using umbreon, ludicolo, lanturn and so on as their special walls. Then why not just close the whole ou tier and play uu, since that's where it is all going. OU pokemon must be strong, sometimes too strong and require prediction to beat them. I can even understand the snorlax ban, as it is a wall that also has a very strong sweep potential. But Blissey too? Common... Link to comment
DrCraig Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) I was absent for quite sometime, just came back and we have blissey and snorlax test banned, just wow. Now people are using umbreon, ludicolo, lanturn and so on as their special walls. Then why not just close the whole ou tier and play uu, since that's where it is all going. OU pokemon must be strong, sometimes too strong and require prediction to beat them. I can even understand the snorlax ban, as it is a wall that also has a very strong sweep potential. But Blissey too? Common... The bans level the playing field, wouldn't you say? Why should there be a god-wall for special attackers, but none for physical attackers? Why is it alright that we run 1 pokemon to wall a whole spectrum on one half of the tier, but 2/3 for the other half? Removing Blissey and Snorlax makes it a more level playing field for offensive on the physical and special side. Now that special pokemon have been given a boost in viability and there is suddenly no 1 pokemon that can bestow infinite safe switches, there is a problem. A problem suddenly arises when people have to deal with physical and special attacks at the same time eh? I say it's worth the test. After all, it is a test. Nothing has been deemed to be permanent yet. Hell, maybe this will be the better meta. Maybe it won't be, but it isn't going to be based off of whether people 'like' it, I can bet you that. There's your recap. Edited June 26, 2015 by Noad Link to comment
lVlusay Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 The bans level the playing field, wouldn't you say? Why should there be a god-wall for special attackers, but none for physical attackers? Why is it alright that we run 1 pokemon to wall a whole spectrum on one half of the tier, but 2/3 for the other half? Removing Blissey and Snorlax makes it a more level playing field for offensive on the physical and special side. Now that special pokemon have been given a boost in viability and there is suddenly no 1 pokemon that can bestow infinite safe switches, there is a problem. A problem suddenly arises when people have to deal with physical and special attacks at the same time eh? I say it's worth the test. After all, it is a test. Nothing has been deemed to be permanent yet. Hell, maybe this will be the better meta. Maybe it won't be, but it isn't going to be based off of whether people 'like' it, I can bet you that. There's your recap. People wouldn't personally attack you if you read the thread. There's a little more to discussion then reading the title that says 'Snorlax/Blissey Test Ban for 1 Month' and throwing a fit. Read some of the discussion at least. First of all thank you for a more coherent and thoughtful reply. This is something I can appreciate. Although you shouldn't defend the personal attacks. I read the thread, which is only 2 small very broad paragraphs briefly explaining what the test ban is about. It clearly said to DISCUSS (please read again if you need to), which is what I started doing. If someone doesn't agree with me, please present your argument. If you don't understand what I said or don't like me personally, please continue reading something else. The fact that I have to take time to explain all this is already ridiculous. In terms of the test ban itself, I don't agree with you. One of your arguments was that there shouldn't be a god-wall for special attackers, while there is none for physical attackers. I don't know why special walls should be punished and banned for the fact that there is no such physical wall. The meta is already very physically oriented and I don't think blissey and/or snorlax are much of a problem. I understand that the idea is to give special attackers a chance, but all pokemon are there for a reason. If they are not completely overpowered like some of the previously banned pokemons, they shouldn't be banned at all. As I previously said, now I see people using umbreon, ludicolo, lanturn and other specials walls more, then why not just play uu? If we keep banning ou pokemons, this is where it will go. After all, every pokemon that gets banned, opens doors for some other pokemon to be overpowered. Link to comment
bl0nde Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) |V|usay, I know you are a super old player in this game - I think you're a 2012'er. You're also a great duelist, I've played against you "back in the day". I can also understand where you're coming from sorta and I believe what would help most for you to understand the reasoning behind the test would be to familiarize yourself with the tiering process and some of the terminology if you have not already: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/ https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/ As much as some of us complain, including myself, we do have to try to remember that it is just a test for now. We can save our opinions for later on if we feel they are needed at that future time. Edited June 26, 2015 by bl0nde lVlusay 1 Link to comment
DrCraig Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 First of all thank you for a more coherent and thoughtful reply. This is something I can appreciate. Although you shouldn't defend the personal attacks. I read the thread, which is only 2 small very broad paragraphs briefly explaining what the test ban is about. It clearly said to DISCUSS (please read again if you need to), which is what I started doing. If someone doesn't agree with me, please present your argument. If you don't understand what I said or don't like me personally, please continue reading something else. The fact that I have to take time to explain all this is already ridiculous. In terms of the test ban itself, I don't agree with you. One of your arguments was that there shouldn't be a god-wall for special attackers, while there is none for physical attackers. I don't know why special walls should be punished and banned for the fact that there is no such physical wall. The meta is already very physically oriented and I don't think blissey and/or snorlax are much of a problem. I understand that the idea is to give special attackers a chance, but all pokemon are there for a reason. If they are not completely overpowered like some of the previously banned pokemons, they shouldn't be banned at all. As I previously said, now I see people using umbreon, ludicolo, lanturn and other specials walls more, then why not just play uu? If we keep banning ou pokemons, this is where it will go. After all, every pokemon that gets banned, opens doors for some other pokemon to be overpowered.By thread I meant other people's replies but anyway Alright, clearly the point of this test is along the lines of the health of the OU tier. Blissey and Snorlax both do not fit any uber characteristics but they are suspect for blah blah stagnant tier. Alright. Blissey and Snorlax undeniably take on 90% of all special offense if not more, barring gimmicks. Blissey and Snorlax do punish the use of special attackers. They turn special attackers into dead weight. In short, unhealthy. So obviously teams consists of one of the two and a defensive core. A defensive core is needed because are no walls wish 100% punish physical attackers. Now with Blissey and Snorlax gone we are faced with special attackers and physical attackers facing little punishment for being ran. In theory, because blah blah testing, special attackers are way more viable then they previously were. Physical and special attackers need to be tended to if one plans to run a safe bulky team like before, and this is difficult. Handling both sides of the split isn't something we're used to. So basically what I'm getting from the test is we are going to see if this is the meta 'we want.' I for one don't think Blissey and Lax are healthy although I love using them because it is risk free(Good stuff is good for a reason). During this test period were going to see if it's a 'better'meta than before pretty much. The problem is a lot of people are narrow minded in the sense that they do not have a little creativity to adapt to the new meta. Theoretically this meta will be better in my opinion, but like I said it's a test and either way I really don't mind. Sorry if I'm redundant, I'm on my phone and it's 3am. Link to comment
Arimanius Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Craig explained that really good man, in short, it's not because they're op or they have the power to sweep through a team (Snorlax can if u let him, but anyway) but because how they make a lot of pokemon useless (special attackers) with them around it's just impossible to use special attackers except for looking for doubles switches and gengar cause he's good at everything.Another thing that IT REALLY BOTHERS ME, this is supposed to be a 1 month test but, how many OU official did we have till now? There's only one, the Oceanic Tournament (Which not everybody is able to assist) so how the hell are going to see statistics and personal experiences if there's no official to test all of those things we're saying? Link to comment
Robofiend Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 The meta is already very physically oriented Check the Oceanic usage stats, almost all of the top used pokemon are special or mixed right now Link to comment
Arimanius Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Check the Oceanic usage stats, almost all of the top used pokemon are special or mixed right now Actually Robo where can I find that? I tried to find it but I don't know where it was posted Link to comment
Robofiend Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Actually Robo where can I find that? I tried to find it but I don't know where it was posted My bad, that must mean they haven't been publicly posted yet and I'm probably not the one to post them. Noad halp. Noad and Arimanius 2 Link to comment
Noad Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 It's fine, this is my fault ;), you can find the usage here. I will do a mass update of the usage thread this weekend once I have team tournament usage. Arimanius 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Damn, cloyster and mag still refusing to drop below UU cutoff level : ( gbwead 1 Link to comment
Winterbrah Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 this meta isn't fun, how much longer till the month is over ? Quint, Kanzo, lVlusay and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 this meta isn't fun, how much longer till the month is over ? Just out of curiousity, do you think it'd be better if Gengar were banned? *repeats argument about fun =/= competitive* Arimanius and DrCraig 2 Link to comment
lVlusay Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Just out of curiousity, do you think it'd be better if Gengar were banned? *repeats argument about fun =/= competitive* Test ban Special Walls to give special attackers a chance and bring more variety of special walls. Next asks about banning a special attacker -_- Don't ban anything, just let people play. Quint 1 Link to comment
lVlusay Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) |V|usay, I know you are a super old player in this game - I think you're a 2012'er. You're also a great duelist, I've played against you "back in the day". I can also understand where you're coming from sorta and I believe what would help most for you to understand the reasoning behind the test would be to familiarize yourself with the tiering process and some of the terminology if you have not already: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/ https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/ As much as some of us complain, including myself, we do have to try to remember that it is just a test for now. We can save our opinions for later on if we feel they are needed at that future time. Wooah, somebody knows me :) Thanks for the links. Edited June 28, 2015 by lVlusay Link to comment
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