[Discussion] Snorlax/Blissey's Place in the OU Meta (Snorlax AND Blissey moved to Ubers)

[Shaniqualela]

Mfw he did the sunnybeam zard calcs with heat wave

[Vaeldras]

Mfw he did the sunnybeam zard calcs with heat wave

 

Am i bad?

[Arimanius]

Mfw he did the sunnybeam zard calcs with heat wave

Well in his defense heat wave does more dmg than flamethrower, a little bit more I guess

[Vaeldras]

Well in his defense heat wave does more dmg than flamethrower, a little bit more I guess

 

if anything i should have tried with fire blast

[timwaps]

lol... only ban curse lax set

Edited June 13, 2015 by timwaps

[Maekaaay]

why not for this meta but please ban dugtrio :)

[GarchompShiny]

i never have trouble with lax and bliss only when i make a mistake and don't ohko lax or bliss because of trying to predict a switch other than that i got no trouble with bliss and lax lax should remain in ou but i don't really like bliss it walls to much even a flygon cb adamant can't ohko a bliss.So lax should came back to ou i don't mind bliss coming back to ou neither but i would prefer if bliss stays in uber.Lax can be ohko more easy than bliss unless it is ev trained the unexpected way.

[quote name="Maekaaay" post="1078176" timestamp="1434209505"]

why not for this meta but please ban dugtrio :)[/quote]
Yea dugtrio should get banned again

[quote name="lamerb" post="1077868" timestamp="1434153793"]

and then hp electric happens ^^[/quote]
I use a houndoom to counter espeon works well

[DaftCoolio]

I've seen a few people post this now so instead of hiding it I better address it, it veers away from the topic at hand so shouldnt really be in here. However. if you feel that this is a viable option then please feel free to post a convincing argument here and I will get the OU council to consider the option of opening a discussion thread. I have to be honest and say in advance that I believe there is very little chance of this happening though, but some healthy debate never hurt anyone. 

i was making a joke

 

[spoiler]  [/spoiler]

[Noad]

i was making a joke

 

[spoiler]  [/spoiler]

Eek sorry I took it as serious because I had previously hidden a few posts of that nature so I thought it was best to point people in the right direction rather than have the thread dissolve into Tyranitar controversy. Also cute cat btw, look at it's little pudgy belly.  :)

[Bestfriends]

This is where you are wrong Bestriends! Everyone is looking at Curse like it is the villian here. But curse is like Batman! Everyone thing he does evil, but he is actually the face of justice! Behind that move Curse, there is a far more evil move. One move that is seen on every Snorlax set except one. The main source of Snorlax's power and the only reason Snorlax is OP. Think about it, what makes Curse so effective in the first place? It's that Snorlax can come in on any wall or special attacker without fail, over and over. But what makes Snorlax able to do this. It is.. the move Rest. Rest makes Snorlax able to do anything, Rest is the only reason Curselax is viable in the first place. Without Rest, how is Curse even a threat? If you think about it, it's way more logical to complex ban Rest on Snorlax.
Snorlax is being called unhealthy, not just because of it's Curse set but mainly because of how punishing it is as a special tank. The reason he can do this is REST. I propose a complex ban on Rest.

 

[spoiler]This was semi-serious. This is why you don't consider a complex ban on one Pokémon because really, Curse isn't the only problem on Snorlax[/spoiler]

 

 

Thanks for thinking outside the box (no pun intended). RestLax is one of the arbiter of the tiering problems, but we still need to focus on Curse though. RestLax isn't good without Curse because we can taunt that sucker all day, CurseLax can't be taunted as well when you switch into Gyarados, not to mention, Intimidate lowers attack NOT defence. Here is my proposal to the comp community, Curse and Rest are one unit so lets take Curse out of the equation for once and we have just a rester which we as a comp community can handle without problems (taunt), but curse + rest is a problem that needs to be dealt with. So lets ban the main component of the problem, CURSE! Intimidate only lowers Attack, but not Attack and Defence. We need to somehow deal with +1 Defence Lax.

My Verdict: We need to complex ban Curse not Rest. Rest is making curse reliable, but keep this in mind, Curse is a problem within itself that needs to be dealt with. Although, that was a cleaver attempt to think outside the box, I still think that CurseLax is killing the meta, not Rest. DoubleJ asked a revealing question that CuresLax lovers need to consider, "is there really skill in this meta or just the first person to set up wins" (DoubleJ, Comment #204, Page 9)?

Edited June 14, 2015 by Bestfriends

[DrCraig]

Bestfriends can you post arguments that have reasoning please. You're just being very vague posting "Well this big beast has curse which makes a mammoth contender in the OU tier. I think Curse is TOO GOOD." Look at Seniles tiering etiquette guide.

Edited June 14, 2015 by DrCraig

[Tyrone]

How do Discussion threads even work?

 

Read the second post of https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/

 

Then apply your newly obtained knowledge to the issue at hand (Snorlax / Blissey) in this case.

 

If you notice your posts suddenly dissapearing, it means you have failed one or two of these two steps.

When this becomes an occasional occurance, you must re-evaluate yourself and your contribution to the Competitive scene and ask yourself this "Does what I write in these Discussion threads actually contribute in a meaningful way?"

If the answer is "no", please stop posting.

[SpartacusGD]

Idk if its too early to say but ive done aome practice duels, and spectated some random battles too. And guess what? Ludicolo have a freakin 100% usage and not many pokes can switch-in on it other than ludicolo itself or maybe umbreon and saur too. Is it going to be the new king of the usage stats now? Guess we'll find out after the 1st ou official and hope it will enlighten everyone that this is a mistake.

Edited June 14, 2015 by SpartacusGD

[Kiliminati]

Idk if its too early to say but ive done aome practice duels, and spectated some random battles too. And guess what? Ludicolo have a freakin 100% usage and not many pokes can switch-in on it other than ludicolo itself or maybe umbreon and saur too. Is it going to be the new king of the usage stats now? Guess we'll find out after the 1st ou official and hope it will enlighten everyone that this is a mistake.

Ludicolo and Umbreon will most likely dominate, with other random pokes that have been mentioned such as Porygon2 and Venasaur filling in the gaps. Porygon2 gets recover, but with no way to boost its defenses, along with its significantly lower base stats in both special defense and hp, it certainly isn't a curselax replacement... there's no way in hell it will be taking superpowers or brick breaks like a +2 or +3 curselax (hell, even a Blissey could tank a superpower from something like jolly Flygon- yus, I use that). Venasaur is just kek though, being weak to Espeon's STAB move which never helps, along with the common special attacking types fire and ice.

The meta should be less bland overall, but all this talk of immediate diversification and viability for millions of more Pokemon in the defensive role is all hype and little consideration, kek.

[Robofiend]

I've been using Porygon2 religiously and it's master race as expected. Tons of support against Gyarados, Jolteon, CB Dugtrio, etc. Not so much of a wall as an anti-meta poke that can either spam Tri-Attack to spread hax status or help Toxic-stall out bulkier phys pokes that switch in on it (as long as they're not named Ursaring/Heracross you'll be fine).

 

I think Venu will see some usage as a Ludi check that has the bulk to stop Fighting spam, Bolt/Grass combos and Giga drain Starmie/Slowbro to death if they get cocky with Psychic. It also pairs well with Umbreon, who can take the tier's non-stab Ice and Fire attacks well and check Gengar and Psychics reasonably well.

[DoubleJ]

I've been using Porygon2 religiously and it's master race as expected. Tons of support against Gyarados, Jolteon, CB Dugtrio, etc. Not so much of a wall as an anti-meta poke that can either spam Tri-Attack to spread hax status or help Toxic-stall out bulkier phys pokes that switch in on it (as long as they're not named Ursaring/Heracross you'll be fine).

 

I think Venu will see some usage as a Ludi check that has the bulk to stop Fighting spam, Bolt/Grass combos and Giga drain Starmie/Slowbro to death if they get uguuy with Psychic. It also pairs well with Umbreon, who can take the tier's non-stab Ice and Fire attacks well and check Gengar and Psychics reasonably well.

 

Ya, that's walls checking walls, but what happens when an Ursaring comes in on Umbreon and sets up a Swords Dance?

[Vaeldras]

Ya, that's walls checking walls, but what happens when an Ursaring comes in on Umbreon and sets up a Swords Dance?

 

You send out dusclops/weezing and haze  (or flygon and hope for the best).

[londark]

Dusc will go down if ursa carries Crunch, Weez has a shot at going down to return...And this is a Jolly Ursa

 

EDIT: Done just a pair of battles without Lax and Bliss, for now won't really express my opinion on the meta since still has to take shape, but from what i've played, can't say it's better

Edited June 14, 2015 by londark

[Vaeldras]

Dusc will go down if ursa carries Crunch, Weez has a shot at going down to return...And this is a Jolly Ursa

 

EDIT: Done just a pair of battles without Lax and Bliss, for now won't really express my opinion on the meta since still has to take shape, but from what i've played, can't say it's better

 

Yeh, but for some reason people don't seem to like crunch on ursa (probably because it's an egg move, dunno).

This meta will allow me to run some pretty evil teams, can't wait to test them

[DrCraig]

I think most of us should re-visit ThinkNices idea of the direction we're going. Everybody should re-evaluate the type of meta we should be trying to achieve. I think that might be an issue right now.

[Vaeldras]

I think most of us should re-visit ThinkNices idea of the direction we're going. Everybody should re-evaluate the type of meta we should be trying to achieve. I think that might be an issue right now.

 

Meh, even though this new meta looks more promising than the old one i don't really like they idea of removing relevant pokes since we already have so few.

We all agree even more bans are likely to come after this, right?

As long as bans are pro variety i'm fine though; we desperately need that.

Also, as senile said, stall is gonna be there in the end, like it or not (pretty sure we all agree stall needs to be at least viable in a good meta), it just won't be as relevant as before(hopefully).

[Orlandu]

Yeh, but for some reason people don't seem to like crunch on ursa (probably because it's an egg move, dunno).

This meta will allow me to run some pretty evil teams, can't wait to test them

Assuming Ursaring is running the SD set, Crunch is not better than Fire Punch and Earthquake in general.

Earthquake OHKO Rhydon(unless max HP, but speed invested is more common) and Metagross at plus 2 

 

+2 252+ Atk Ursaring Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 202-238 (108 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Fire Punch is obviously needed to hit Skarmory and Forretress before they phaze/explode and already hits Gengar hard enough.

[Vaeldras]

Assuming Ursaring is running the SD set, Crunch is not better than Fire Punch and Earthquake in general.

Earthquake OHKO Rhydon(unless max HP, but speed invested is more common) and Metagross at plus 2 

 

+2 252+ Atk Ursaring Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 202-238 (108 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Fire Punch is obviously needed to hit Skarmory and Forretress before they phaze/explode and already hits Gengar hard enough.

 

Oh, so earthquake actually has an edge over firepunch (rhydon asides).

Still, crunch is always nice to have. I personally pair it with firepunch (+ stab and sdance ofc), seems like the best possible coverage with it.

On my equake set i run tpunch instead, since the only difference between tpunch and firepunch with earthquake is tpunch takes care of gyara (could always come in with intimidate and attempt a waterfall spam. also, you can predict a ddance and kill it, hoping for no flinch) while firepunch takes care of forretress.

 

Since forretress is so popular right now it would be wiser to have firepunch but an extra gyarados check doesn't hurt (also cheaper).

Tbh though, i prefer the crunch set, i don't really care for rhydon.

[Orlandu]

Oh, so earthquake actually has an edge over firepunch (rhydon asides).

Still, crunch is always nice to have. I personally pair it with firepunch (+ stab and sdance ofc), seems like the best possible coverage with it.

On my equake set i run tpunch instead, since the only difference between tpunch and firepunch with earthquake is tpunch takes care of gyara (could always come in with intimidate and attempt a waterfall spam. also, you can predict a ddance and kill it, hoping for no flinch) while firepunch takes care of forretress.

 

Since forretress is so popular right now it would be wiser to have firepunch but an extra gyarados check doesn't hurt (also cheaper).

Tbh though, i prefer the crunch set, i don't really care for rhydon.

I don't care about Rhydon either, but I still like to OHKO Metagross at plus 2.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Orlandu

[XPLOZ]

Crunch is nice as it allows you not to be stopped cold by disable Gengars. Wait, why are we talking about Ursaring ? :huh: Blissey was already a bait for it.