[Discussion] Snorlax/Blissey's Place in the OU Meta (Snorlax AND Blissey moved to Ubers)

[Senile]

So, the OU council has come up with a proposal; With Snorlax banned, the metagame did not undergo a significant enough change to ban Snorlax. While a few pokemon's viability changed, it was overall the same, and there still remained a massive blob at the top which was now even more uncontested in their role than Snorlax, Blissey. In both metagames, there is a neigh irreplaceable special wall which centralizes the entire metagame around them, allowing no other special walls to really exist (except for blisseys in Snorlax meta, hue). As a result, Snorlax was unbanned after the test period. However, we've come up with an alternate proposal.

 

Banning Blissey+Snorlax for a month test period and seeing if it works out is the decision that the OU council feels is one of the few options left for OU. Ideally, it should actually result in significantly more variety in OU, forcing people to actually build against, plan for, and play around special attackers moreso than before, since they can no longer put 1 large catch-all pokemon in their team anymore and rely on it. This means that not only will there be more variety in special walls, but there will be more thought put into teambuilding, as opposed to slapping down a fat behemoth. While we understand concerns over some pokemon (large concern for Gengar has been voiced), we can deal with that after the 1 month ban period, if we decide that we should make the change permanent.

 

Discuss.

 

Edit: Snorlax and Blissey are banned from OU for a month as a test.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Noad

[Vaeldras]

I knew that blissey wasn't worth the money.

Maybe, just for the lulz. Seems a bit desperate to me, but if you guys say there's really nothing else we could do to avoid a stagnant meta...

Edited June 9, 2015 by Vaeldras

[DoctorPBC]

No special fighting attacks. Ok sure calm umbreon meta inc

[DoubleJ]

No special fighting attacks. Ok sure calm umbreon meta inc

But but cm signal beam!

[Rache]

If Blissey ends up being test banned, people may switch to Chansey to take her place as its special walling capabilities are close to identical. If Chansey remains in the meta during a Bliss/Lax test ban, I can't see things changing much more than they did when Snorlax alone was banned as special attackers outside of Gengar are all walled just as hard by Chansey as they are by Blissey, so Chansey should probably be included.

 

It would be nice to see some more variety and special attackers becoming more viable. Without "perfect" special walls, people might have to think a little harder to stop them, and won't be punished so much for using them without a Dugtrio on their team.

[YagamiNoir]

Ok so suddenly Blissey fits the defensive charactersitc or something because two obese blobs are making the metagame too stagnant.

We might see Chanseys everywhere, I don't know.

[XPLOZ]

Once again, Snorlax OP confirmed in my PSL battle. It is basically a special Wall, but can set-up on a Metagross which is one of the biggest physical sweeper in the game, and sweep a whole team. So ofc i'm still in favour of a ban. I guess i don't need to repeat again and again the reasons, but it's fcking unhealthy in our semi 3G-4G meta.

Not sure about blissey, which stalls everything on the special side but do not have this HUGE offensive pressure at all, like Snorlax has.

 

But I'm not going to repeat what i said a dozen times.

Edited June 9, 2015 by XPLOZ

[LionKIng]

If Blissey ends up being test banned, people may switch to Chansey to take her place as its special walling capabilities are close to identical. If Chansey remains in the meta during a Bliss/Lax test ban, I can't see things changing much more than they did when Snorlax alone was banned as special attackers outside of Gengar are all walled just as hard by Chansey as they are by Blissey, so Chansey should probably be included.

 

It would be nice to see some more variety and special attackers becoming more viable. Without "perfect" special walls, people might have to think a little harder to stop them, and won't be punished so much for using them without a Dugtrio on their team.

thats not really true since chansey doesnt have the special attacking ability that blissey has, limiting its movesets largely

[Senile]

If Blissey ends up being test banned, people may switch to Chansey to take her place as its special walling capabilities are close to identical. If Chansey remains in the meta during a Bliss/Lax test ban, I can't see things changing much more than they did when Snorlax alone was banned as special attackers outside of Gengar are all walled just as hard by Chansey as they are by Blissey, so Chansey should probably be included.

 

It would be nice to see some more variety and special attackers becoming more viable. Without "perfect" special walls, people might have to think a little harder to stop them, and won't be punished so much for using them without a Dugtrio on their team.

 

Chansey is a lot worse than Blissey, especially in OU. Me and Zebra talked about it; not being able to really hit things with Tbolt/Ice Beam sucks for Chansey, especially with shit like Gengar around. If Chansey becomes "Blissey 2.0", then we might do something about it, but it seems really unlikely.

 

Ok so suddenly Blissey fits the defensive charactersitc or something because two obese blobs are making the metagame too stagnant.

We might see Chanseys everywhere, I don't know.

Naw, Blissey doesn't fit the defensive characteristic, that's not what's being said, hue.

[ThinkNice]

If Blissey ends up being test banned, people may switch to Chansey to take her place as its special walling capabilities are close to identical. If Chansey remains in the meta during a Bliss/Lax test ban, I can't see things changing much more than they did when Snorlax alone was banned as special attackers outside of Gengar are all walled just as hard by Chansey as they are by Blissey, so Chansey should probably be included.

 

It would be nice to see some more variety and special attackers becoming more viable. Without "perfect" special walls, people might have to think a little harder to stop them, and won't be punished so much for using them without a Dugtrio on their team.

0 SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 148-176 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flygon: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

[YagamiNoir]

thats not really true since chansey doesnt have the special attacking ability that blissey has, limiting its movesets largely

I mean, it doesn't need a Special Attack against Special Attackers at all. Most of Blissey's Special Attacks were directes towards physical attackers. Even without it Seismic Toss and a recovery move is more than enough to walk things just as efficiently as Blissey does.

EDIT: Never mind, typing on a phone is too slow. Edited June 9, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Gunthug]

Ok so suddenly Blissey fits the defensive charactersitc or something because two obese blobs are making the metagame too stagnant.

We might see Chanseys everywhere, I don't know.

I dont think bliss would go under defensive - this seems like an unhealthy for the metagame test (considering defensive characteristic ubers don't usually warrant a test)

 

In response to rache's concern about Chansey, OU is full of things that can abuse toxic/seismic toss coverage. Blissey has respectable special attack which threatens a lot of potential switch ins, but chansey is far far easier to set up on

 

I'll leave this calc here to settle any concerns about chansey in OU:

 

[spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler]

+1 252+ Atk Swarm Ariados Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Chansey: 415-490 (127.3 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]

Edited June 9, 2015 by Gunthug

[ThinkNice]

I mean, it doesn't need a Special Attack against Special Attackers at all. Most of Blissey's Special Attacks were directes towards physical attackers. Even without it Seismic Toss and a recovery move is more than enough to walk things just as efficiently as Blissey does.

EDIT: Never mind, typing on a phone is too slow.

0 SpA Chansey Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 39-47 (14.8 - 17.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

free subs for days

[YagamiNoir]

I dont think bliss would go under defensive - this seems like an unhealthy for the metagame test (considering defensive characteristic ubers don't usually warrant a test)

In response to rache's concern about Chansey, OU is full of things that can abuse toxic/seismic toss coverage. Blissey has respectable special attack which threatens a lot of potential switch ins, but chansey is far far easier to set up on

I'll leave this calc here to settle any concerns about chansey in OU:

[spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler][spoiler]
+1 252+ Atk Swarm Ariados Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Chansey: 415-490 (127.3 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]

Spider obsessions.

Yeah, I suppose so. We're taking account about how it deals with both sides of the walling spectrum instead of just the special side (the emphasis made me think that was the only thing that mattered because Blissey in theory is not unbeatable, with understanding to the test ban regardless). Chansey can pull off the whole Protect-Choice lock thing that was memtioned throughout the old UU discussion, but I suppose it's not desirably effective regardless. Edited June 9, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Gunthug]

Spider obsessions.

Yeah, I suppose so. We're taking account about how it deals with both sides of the walling spectrum instead of just the special side (the emphasis made me think that was the only thing that mattered because Blissey in theory is not unbeatable, with understanding to the test ban regardless). Chansey can pull off the whole Protect-Choice lock thing that was memtioned throughout the old UU discussion, but I suppose it's not desirably effective regardless.

well I think you've gotta look at it from the perspective of "how does it affect teambuilding in OU." When lax went, blissey was easy to slot into teams because 1. it still walled special attackers (far more than lax, even), and 2. it wasn't completely helpless against strong physical attackers. Why? Because bliss could survive a lot of physical attacks, even CB attacks, and the threat of counter is always there. Also, blissey's respectable special attack meant physical pokes couldn't switch in freely very often. Set up pokes also feared this special attack - two that come to mind are scizor and rhydon, which were threatened by flamethrower and ice beam respectively.

 

But if lax and bliss are removed, does chansey slot into teams without leaving a team wide open to a devastating physical attacker? Not at all, in my opinion. Chansey is inviting set up pokes to do their worst, and the range of set up pokes in OU is far greater than those in UU. Will chansey see increased OU usage? Yeah, probably to the point where it rises above the UU cutoff. But I can almost guaruntee that we won't see 50%+ usage like we did with bliss/lax

[YagamiNoir]

well I think you've gotta look at it from the perspective of "how does it affect teambuilding in OU." When lax went, blissey was easy to slot into teams because 1. it still walled special attackers (far more than lax, even), and 2. it wasn't completely helpless against strong physical attackers. Why? Because bliss could survive a lot of physical attacks, even CB attacks, and the threat of counter is always there. Also, blissey's respectable special attack meant physical pokes couldn't switch in freely very often. Set up pokes also feared this special attack - two that come to mind are scizor and rhydon, which were threatened by flamethrower and ice beam respectively.
 
But if lax and bliss are removed, does chansey slot into teams without leaving a team wide open to a devastating physical attacker? Not at all, in my opinion. Chansey is inviting set up pokes to do their worst, and the range of set up pokes in OU is far greater than those in UU. Will chansey see increased OU usage? Yeah, probably to the point where it rises above the UU cutoff. But I can almost guaruntee that we won't see 50%+ usage like we did with bliss/lax

I get the point of the ban and the reasonibg behind it, although the OP's emphasis of "scurry obesity that walls special attacks that are stagnant" made me backtrack about Blissey's younger sibling without thinking about the flaws. Just "OP wall for specials."

I worded it there, though; "With understanding to the test ban".

[XPLOZ]

PS : mfw people are considering to play chansey if blissey gets a ban. Your teambuild is poor.

Edited June 9, 2015 by XPLOZ

[EyWey]

I think Snorlax and Blissey are necessity in the meta.

And the Gengar Factor.

There are special walls who can't rise cause Gengar like Ludicolo and Dusclops

 

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusclops: 84-102 (57.1 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Dusclops Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 78-92 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 114-134 (60.9 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Ludicolo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 63-75 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Gengar do not need predict them, just hit 1v1

Only Arcanine and Clefable can wall Gengar and thanks Sludge bomb's poison chance, not so easy.

 

And do not think about Chansey beat Gengar

0 SpA Chansey Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 22-26 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

SubPunch Gengar beats her with no support

[xXKhryon]

calm ludicolo rain dish OP

[Vaeldras]

Wts choice band 600k

Wtb choice specs

 

Jolteon is already painful as it is, inb4 hardcore scouting to find out if it has hp grass or ice  :(

Let's do this though, possibly asap 

[ThinkNice]

 

I think Snorlax and Blissey are necessity in the meta.

And the Gengar Factor.

There are special walls who can't rise cause Gengar like Ludicolo and Dusclops

 

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusclops: 84-102 (57.1 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Dusclops Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 78-92 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 114-134 (60.9 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Ludicolo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 63-75 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Gengar do not need predict them, just hit 1v1

Only Arcanine and Clefable can wall Gengar and thanks Sludge bomb's poison chance, not so easy.

 

And do not think about Chansey beat Gengar

0 SpA Chansey Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 22-26 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

SubPunch Gengar beats her with no support

 

Porygon2, fucking UMBREON, Magneton actually does a really good job at handling its main attacks.

 

edit: The OP literally stated that talking about Gengar etc can be done while the test is going on or after it.

Edited June 9, 2015 by ThinkNice

[DrCraig]

Very selfish for those criticizing the council, in my opinion.

 

I applaud you guys for catering to the community which is constantly asking for representation. I do wonder if a meta without Lax and Bliss would be what we want. Maybe that is what we want to make more pokemon and play-styles viable. I am completely aware this doesn't follow tiering policy, but I think this would be a great test. This is exactly what the community wanted to see. Anything with Snorlax gone is better, and I think I speak for the majority of the community by saying that. Maybe Blissey is the other half of the problem we have. Good job guys!

 

I guess there is no harm in testing really, so OU and UU might have to be chaotic for a while until we can clearly see a direction we want to head.

[Vaeldras]

 

I think Snorlax and Blissey are necessity in the meta.

And the Gengar Factor.

There are special walls who can't rise cause Gengar like Ludicolo and Dusclops

 

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusclops: 84-102 (57.1 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Dusclops Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 78-92 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ludicolo: 114-134 (60.9 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Ludicolo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 63-75 (46.6 - 55.5%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Gengar do not need predict them, just hit 1v1

Only Arcanine and Clefable can wall Gengar and thanks Sludge bomb's poison chance, not so easy.

 

And do not think about Chansey beat Gengar

0 SpA Chansey Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 22-26 (16.2 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

SubPunch Gengar beats her with no support

 

 

To be fair, gengar (depending on the set) can beat both blissey and snorlax (not to mention how it's usage dropped when snorlax was being tested)

If anything it'll be way more likely to be running a 4 attacks set, that kinda helps.

[BurntZebra]

Very selfish for those criticizing the council, in my opinion.

 

I applaud you guys for catering to the community which is constantly asking for representation. I do wonder if a meta without Lax and Bliss would be what we want. Maybe that is what we want to make more pokemon and play-styles viable. I am completely aware this doesn't follow tiering policy, but I think this would be a great test. This is exactly what the community wanted to see. Anything with Snorlax gone is better, and I think I speak for the majority of the community by saying that. Maybe Blissey is the other half of the problem we have. Good job guys!

 

I guess there is no harm in testing really, so OU and UU might have to be chaotic for a while until we can clearly see a direction we want to head.

IMO this still follows the tiering policy. The possible banning of snorlax and blissey would be under the unhealthy characteristic as pretty much any sane player runs one or both of them on any OU team, meaning that players always have to prepare their teams for snorlax and blissey, which limits what people can run in general. With a meta without blissey or snorlax, players have a bit more freedom in what they run to handle special attackers, whether it be ludicolo, umbreon, arcanine, or whatever else people think of, and none of these are unstoppable walls, which will lead to special attackers becoming viable again, and hopefully an overall healthier meta. 

[Vaeldras]

IMO this still follows the tiering policy. The possible banning of snorlax and blissey would be under the unhealthy characteristic as pretty much any sane player runs one or both of them on any OU team, meaning that players always have to prepare their teams for snorlax and blissey, which limits what people can run in general. With a meta without blissey or snorlax, players have a bit more freedom in what they run to handle special attackers, whether it be ludicolo, umbreon, arcanine, or whatever else people think of, and none of these are unstoppable walls, which will lead to special attackers becoming viable again, and hopefully an overall healthier meta. 

 

More like less freedom since they'll want to be completely covered from special attackers (assuming that's possible, which we still don't know).

If anything i'm more scared of sp attackers getting a bit too powerful but it's still better than them being a joke