[Discussion] Snorlax/Blissey's Place in the OU Meta (Snorlax AND Blissey moved to Ubers)

[Barrage]

I'm really on the fence about this whole thing. I can see where the reasoning is for doing this, but having played just a little bit of this game recently, I feel OU is already very match-up based and relies heavily on trapping. These things, in my opinion, are already a problem, and will only become worse with the ban of Snorlax and Blissey. Okay, maybe not the trapping thing, but definitely match-ups. I find it really easy to lose just on match-ups alone at the moment, and having to bring really specific special walls to block the ever powerful special attackers of the game (Starmie, Gengar, namely) will only make that worse. I'd be glad to see someone explain to me why I'm wrong though.

[Quint]

What do you guys think about a complex ban on curse? For what i see curselax is the biggest threat.

[BurntZebra]

I'm really on the fence about this whole thing. I can see where the reasoning is for doing this, but having played just a little bit of this game recently, I feel OU is already very match-up based and relies heavily on trapping. These things, in my opinion, are already a problem, and will only become worse with the ban of Snorlax and Blissey. Okay, maybe not the trapping thing, but definitely match-ups. I find it really easy to lose just on match-ups alone at the moment, and having to bring really specific special walls to block the ever powerful special attackers of the game (Starmie, Gengar, namely) will only make that worse. I'd be glad to see someone explain to me why I'm wrong though.

Have you ever played OU in gen 6? or VGC? Its mostly match ups really. Imo in a some what healthy meta, one team shouldn't be able to take on any archetype of a team and will always lose some match ups. Our OU meta wasn't as match up reliant because everyone ran the same 10 pokemon so it was moreso the rng and predictions, not the actual team building (usually). 

[Gunthug]

I'm really on the fence about this whole thing. I can see where the reasoning is for doing this, but having played just a little bit of this game recently, I feel OU is already very match-up based and relies heavily on trapping. These things, in my opinion, are already a problem, and will only become worse with the ban of Snorlax and Blissey. Okay, maybe not the trapping thing, but definitely match-ups. I find it really easy to lose just on match-ups alone at the moment, and having to bring really specific special walls to block the ever powerful special attackers of the game (Starmie, Gengar, namely) will only make that worse. I'd be glad to see someone explain to me why I'm wrong though.

I disagree about the current state of OU - I don't think it's match up based at all. It's not a case of "oh crap, he brought this and this i'm screwed." What I'm seeing most of the time is "first one whose curselax 'counter' goes down is fucked." I see a lot of trapping too, but again, I'm not sure banning the two easiest and effective pokes to trap (WW lax aside) is going to exacerbate that. But as far as what will happen w/the test, we're both just speculating at this point. I think it's worth a test, because without a test, OU just remains shit

[londark]

Have you ever played OU in gen 6?  Its mostly match ups really

 

Nope, the variety of sets, items even abilities a single pokemon can use makes it less match up based, always if you are running a well build team, or some pathological cases

 

VGC is another story since it's a 4vs4

[Barrage]

Have you ever played OU in gen 6? or VGC? Its mostly match ups really. Imo in a some what healthy meta, one team shouldn't be able to take on any archetype of a team and will always lose some match ups. Our OU meta wasn't as match up reliant because everyone ran the same 10 pokemon so it was moreso the rng and predictions, not the actual team building (usually). 

I have played a lot of Gen 6 OU yes. And as someone who has made it to the top 100 on the ladder several times using pretty much the same teams each individual time, I would say it's not that match-up based, actually. It is way more fast-paced, yes, but not match-up based. And I wouldn't use that as an argument to justify that it's balanced even if it were the case. One of the things that helps alleviate the "match-up" problem in gen 6 is team viewer, and I'm not about to advocate we implement that here because that just isn't the problem. Our game is still too slow for team viewer, and in my opinion, team viewer adds a different type of skill factor to the game, but it's not one I necessarily like. I think having knowledge of common teambuilding practices and understanding the metagame is way more important than looking at a Pokemon and acknowledging its threat to your team. I guess that's personal preference though. Anyway, my whole point is that in PokeMMO, match-ups are probably more important in PokeMMO than you think. Things like Heracross and Metagross will completely shit on you if you don't have the right Pokes. It is possible you're just not seeing it because you're so used to having the same answers to these - Skarmory, Arcanine, etc. - on every team. Same reason why people might be saying "special attackers aren't that strong" because they are used to seeing them get the shit walled out of them by Snorlax/Blissey. But these Pokemon have extremely good coverage options and will poop on "special walls" with inferior typing with ease. I'm not even arguing that this is a good reason not to ban Snorlax and Blissey, I'm just kind of explaining my perspective.

[OrangeManiac]

I first didn't like this but the more I think about it, damn it opens up for options. I have personally felt like after playing enough with my stallbreaker team I can pretty much tell which sweeper and which wall will switch in for my certain Pokemon. The two fatsos have limited the metagame so much that people will always have one or two of them and have something that counters the wallbreakers for these walls (such as Weezing). If not defensive play is really narrow and always revolves around with the same walls, so is offensive play highly limited. There's only two ways to run it: Either highly physically offensive because physical Pokemon can take down physical walls while special sweepers have nothing on Snorlax and Blissey. They always require a Dugtrio and even Dugtrio can't be 100% sure of taking down a Snorlax because possible Whirlwind and Blissey because possible Hail. So this option is highly unreliable and quite rather means that if it fails, game over. To me there is NO reason to run the Dugtrio + Spec sweeper teams. Also a metagame which requires a trapper seems really broken to me. So basically I feel like stallbreaker teams are limited for being mostly or completely physical and defensive teams have adjusted to this to make the defensive Pokemon be able to counter these physical attackers.

If Snorlax and Blissey are gone, the options are so limitless. Defensive teams might not be that effective but maybe people will discover defensive cores they didn't even think about before they just slapped a Blissey + Snorlax + Weezing + Slowbro + 2 fillers. If they don't, well.. at least the encounters you experience in OU match makes it much more fun experience than seeing always Pokemon that are build to be able to take down Blissey and Snorlax - and their generic teammates. Honestly, a lot of Pokemon we consider now UU or NU aren't even bad - they just absolutely have no place in the OU metagame if they 1) don't break the main walls and their teammates 2) aren't walls.

I feel like the metagame would be so much better without these two, so much more diverse in terms of Pokemon and the way both offensive and defensive playstyles are run would be much more creative. What I'm scared about is that the current tierlist wouldn't be even "true" if these two were gone because I feel like the factor Snorlax and Blissey has had to the metagame has been so big it has made amazing Pokemon in the lower tiers just because they didn't break Blissey / Snorlax, didn't wall themselves or didn't support a wall team.

Edited June 10, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Excelimpulse]

I dint think it adds any more versatility. You now would have to make a special core and defensive core and carry dugtrio to make a somewhat safe team. Which leaves you with one open slot. I'm tired of hearing this versatility craps and opening up options when we only have 10-14 pokes that are even worth considering. And when you keep banning them that number drops it doesn't add pokes that are outclassed because you still have main ou pokes like gengar meta heracross that can still drop on them.

[DoubleJ]

Gemgar is insane in this new meta.

[BurntZebra]

I have played a lot of Gen 6 OU yes. And as someone who has made it to the top 100 on the ladder several times using pretty much the same teams each individual time, I would say it's not that match-up based, actually. It is way more fast-paced, yes, but not match-up based. And I wouldn't use that as an argument to justify that it's balanced even if it were the case. One of the things that helps alleviate the "match-up" problem in gen 6 is team viewer, and I'm not about to advocate we implement that here because that just isn't the problem. Our game is still too slow for team viewer, and in my opinion, team viewer adds a different type of skill factor to the game, but it's not one I necessarily like. I think having knowledge of common teambuilding practices and understanding the metagame is way more important than looking at a Pokemon and acknowledging its threat to your team. I guess that's personal preference though. Anyway, my whole point is that in PokeMMO, match-ups are probably more important in PokeMMO than you think. Things like Heracross and Metagross will completely shit on you if you don't have the right Pokes. It is possible you're just not seeing it because you're so used to having the same answers to these - Skarmory, Arcanine, etc. - on every team. Same reason why people might be saying "special attackers aren't that strong" because they are used to seeing them get the shit walled out of them by Snorlax/Blissey. But these Pokemon have extremely good coverage options and will poop on "special walls" with inferior typing with ease. I'm not even arguing that this is a good reason not to ban Snorlax and Blissey, I'm just kind of explaining my perspective.

I'm not saying PokeMMO OU *can't* be match up based, because it definitely can, even with the snorlax/bliss meta, but people choose not to. Look at the usage stats (lf noad to update OU); snorlax, blissey, arcanine, gengar, metagross, weezing, and slowbro all have very high usage rates. With the amount of walls being run in OU, people are forced to run wallbreakers, and because this is only gen 3, our wallbreaker options are relatively limited, basically just metagross/heracross/medicham/blaziken, the latter two aren't really used as much because of slowbro and dugtrio though. Since the number of wallbreakers is so small, its relatively easy to build a stall team around stopping the wallbreakers, and it was just overall difficult to change the stagnant meta game since special attackers had such a small role in the meta. Special attackers only had a chance if they ran dugtrio or wynaut to take down blissey or snorlax, and even then it was risky as both of the walls had methods of stopping dugtrio and special attackers can obviously be stopped still. 

 

If we had more pokemon and moves, yeah we would probably have a more match up based meta with more viable comps to use, but as of now, we don't really. 

[KingBowser]

I'm not saying PokeMMO OU *can't* be match up based, because it definitely can, even with the snorlax/bliss meta, but people choose not to. Look at the usage stats (lf noad to update OU); snorlax, blissey, arcanine, gengar, metagross, weezing, and slowbro all have very high usage rates. With the amount of walls being run in OU, people are forced to run wallbreakers, and because this is only gen 3, our wallbreaker options are relatively limited, basically just metagross/heracross/medicham/blaziken, the latter two aren't really used as much because of slowbro and dugtrio though. Since the number of wallbreakers is so small, its relatively easy to build a stall team around stopping the wallbreakers, and it was just overall difficult to change the stagnant meta game since special attackers had such a small role in the meta. Special attackers only had a chance if they ran dugtrio or wynaut to take down blissey or snorlax, and even then it was risky as both of the walls had methods of stopping dugtrio and special attackers can obviously be stopped still.

If we had more pokemon and moves, yeah we would probably have a more match up based meta with more viable comps to use, but as of now, we don't really.

Missing a lot of wallbreakers/stallbreakers. Gengar/Ursaring/kingdra/ludicolo/gardevoir/even lax, cb rhydon, flygon, like how many do we need? And you are acting like stall is the #1 team to run. Rain teams can plow through stall.

[BurntZebra]

Missing a lot of wallbreakers/stallbreakers. Gengar/Ursaring/kingdra/ludicolo/gardevoir/even lax, cb rhydon, flygon, like how many do we need? And you are acting like stall is the #1 team to run. Rain teams can plow through stall.

Which of those can actually break stall teams though? Gengar and ursaring are probably the best of those you mentioned. Flygon doesn't really have enough power, ludicolo can annoy commonly used walls, but still loses to lax/bliss usually. Kingdra has similar issues to ludicolo except it loses to slowbro/vaporeon or skarmory if physical dd set. Gardevoir I wouldn't really consider a wallbreaker, although encore is nice for supporting team mates. Rhydon is nice if it gets a clean switch vs snorlax or blissey, but a body slam para from snorlax or an ice beam from bliss will basically cripple rhydon, and the cb set still loses to skarm, unlike the sd set that has a 30% to beat skarm. Obviously magneton+physical wallbreakers will beat stall, but I don't think its necessarily healthy for someone to be forced to run magneton or dugtrio to break stall. 

[KingBowser]

Which of those can actually break stall teams though? Gengar and ursaring are probably the best of those you mentioned. Flygon doesn't really have enough power, ludicolo can annoy commonly used walls, but still loses to lax/bliss usually. Kingdra has similar issues to ludicolo except it loses to slowbro/vaporeon or skarmory if physical dd set. Gardevoir I wouldn't really consider a wallbreaker, although encore is nice for supporting team mates. Rhydon is nice if it gets a clean switch vs snorlax or blissey, but a body slam para from snorlax or an ice beam from bliss will basically cripple rhydon, and the cb set still loses to skarm, unlike the sd set that has a 30% to beat skarm. Obviously magneton+physical wallbreakers will beat stall, but I don't think its necessarily healthy for someone to be forced to run magneton or dugtrio to break stall.

Seems like the only wallbreaker thats fits your criteria of being a wallbreaker is mewtwo. No poke is gonna beat every wall.mag+ physical poke to beat a team of 6 seems fine to me.

[BurntZebra]

Seems like the only wallbreaker thats fits your criteria of being a wallbreaker is mewtwo. No poke is gonna beat every wall.mag+ physical poke to beat a team of 6 seems fine to me.

I just don't see how ludicolo or kingdra would break through snorlax or blissey, which are the two most used walls. Wallbreakers will definitely be more effective if snorlax and blissey get the boot since special attackers could actually be wallbreakers like fake tears jolteon. Notice how the best wallbreakers are physical right now

[DoubleJ]

I just don't see how ludicolo or kingdra would break through snorlax or blissey, which are the two most used walls. Wallbreakers will definitely be more effective if snorlax and blissey get the boot since special attackers could actually be wallbreakers like fake tears jolteon. Notice how the best wallbreakers are physical right now

The use of wall breakers is just a bit difficult to pull off and that's mostly due to the presence of Gengar. Kingdra can break lax and bliss somewhat easily as DD set with resto-Chesto actually uses bliss to set up and typically can pull +3 before having to attack. Double-dance Kingdra beats Snorlax as a waterfall in the rain can 2hko, while a lax bslam isn't a ohko (pray for paralysis or a low roll).

[KingBowser]

I just don't see how ludicolo or kingdra would break through snorlax or blissey, which are the two most used walls. Wallbreakers will definitely be more effective if snorlax and blissey get the boot since special attackers could actually be wallbreakers like fake tears jolteon. Notice how the best wallbreakers are physical right now

Ludicolo is gonna get an easy switch in on stall so it can sub and fire some focus punch. Kingdra can ddance or set up rain and hit with some boosted waterfalls. Well yea they are physical, they were given bulk by the base lords. Notice how best sweepers are special attackers. Edited June 10, 2015 by KingBowser

[BurntZebra]

Ludicolo is gonna get an easy switch in on stall so it can sub and fire some focus punch. Kingdra can ddance or set up rain and git with aome booated waterfalls. Well yea they are physical, they were given bulk by the base lords. Notice how best sweepers are special attackers.

your sub punch ludi won't be coming in too easily, except vs non cm or toxic slowbros, and non toxic arcanines. Kingdra can only 3hko blissey or snorlax with rain up with waterfall, assuming snorlax doesn't curse as soon as kingdra sets up rain dance. I'd like to meet these base lords. Notice how special sweepers are usually only run with something that can trap snorlax or blissey. 

[KingBowser]

your sub punch ludi won't be coming in too easily, except vs non cm or toxic slowbros, and non toxic arcanines. Kingdra can only 3hko blissey or snorlax with rain up with waterfall, assuming snorlax doesn't curse as soon as kingdra sets up rain dance. I'd like to meet these base lords. Notice how special sweepers are usually only run with something that can trap snorlax or blissey.

Well fuckin A Burnt, can make the scenario perfect too for stallbreakers. My ludicolo switched in a -18 arcanine crunch. I can easily throw up a safeguard. 9/10 when an arcanine switches in, it morning suns. Let me see your lax ev spread, I know mine did half.
Peopel run a trapper cauae they know its a cheap and easy way to win. People too afriad to grind out a match against stall.
Also spattackers arent being run cause dug eats them up. Edited June 10, 2015 by KingBowser

[BurntZebra]

Well fuckin A Burnt, can make the scenario perfect too for stallbreakers. My ludicolo switched in a -18 arcanine crunch. I can easily throw up a safeguard. 9/10 when an arcanine switches in, it morning suns. Let me see your lax ev spread, I know mine did half.
Peopel run a trapper cauae they know its a cheap and easy way to win. People too afriad to grind out a match against stall.
Also spattackers arent being run cause dug eats them up.

Not arguing that you're wrong, just not everyone runs safeguard arcanine+sub focus punch ludicolo to handle stall, probably why not everyone wins OU tournaments. 

252+ Atk Kingdra Waterfall vs. 36 HP / 188 Def Snorlax in Rain: 99-117 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

What special attackers are actually trapped by dugtrio? Bulky starmie usually has enough hp to take the eq, slowbro (not a fast sweeper, but a sweeper of sorts nonetheless) doesn't care about dugtrio, jolteon outspeeds and has a chance at killing dugtrio (assuming 31 hp/31 sp def on dugtrio, otherwise jolteon usually kills), alakazam speed ties, sceptile speed ties, gengar isn't trapped by dugtrio (unless gengar switches out and dugtrio pursuits), charizard isn't trapped and only needs to worry about rock slide. Not sure what special attackers you're referring to, espeon and magneton are the only two that come to mind. 

[KingBowser]

Not arguing that you're wrong, just not everyone runs safeguard arcanine+sub focus punch ludicolo to handle stall, probably why not everyone wins OU tournaments.
252+ Atk Kingdra Waterfall vs. 36 HP / 188 Def Snorlax in Rain: 99-117 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
What special attackers are actually trapped by dugtrio? Bulky starmie usually has enough hp to take the eq, slowbro (not a fast sweeper, but a sweeper of sorts nonetheless) doesn't care about dugtrio, jolteon outspeeds and has a chance at killing dugtrio (assuming 31 hp/31 sp def on dugtrio, otherwise jolteon usually kills), alakazam speed ties, sceptile speed ties, gengar isn't trapped by dugtrio (unless gengar switches out and dugtrio pursuits), charizard isn't trapped and only needs to worry about rock slide. Not sure what special attackers you're referring to, espeon and magneton are the only two that come to mind.

Is that even a standard spread ot something you made up? If i can give up a single moveslot to handle stall even easier ill do it. You telling me people gonna be running bulky starmie when gengar going to be the #1 threat. Also little hp invested dug is the best. Can alakazam even ko dug? Zard and sceptile are tier one threats now? Gard gonna get picked as well. They arent ran right now since that would mean running another grounded poke, which is bad right now.

[NikhilR]

Tbh Zeb, I run a investment of about 20 evs or so on my dug so that hp from jolteon is a guaranteed 2hko. Dug is a very good revenge killer with the CB set as it easily takes out special attackers because of their shitty base def compared to spdef. Mag, Gardevoir, Kazam, Jolteon, Starmie, Espeon are very good examples of this. Not sure what other spakers are more viable other than rain dancers and gengar. 

[KingBowser]

Also the move trick is gonna help a lot against stall.

[codylramey]

If i held a tourny next week w/onthese two in it with a cash pool/shitty prize bc im poor in order to unofficialy get a glimps of this possible new world for pokemmo would anyone join?

Edited June 10, 2015 by codylramey

[Senile]

If i held a tourny next week w/onthese two in it with a cash pool/shitty prize bc im poor in order to unofficialy get a glimps of this possible new world for pokemmo would anyone join?

I mean, you can do it if you want, but it won't be taken seriously for any level of discussion. Blissey/Snorlax are so central to the metagame that taking them away completely changes the way teams look and are built, as well as forces people to use some previously mediocre at best pokemon. Nobody's going to breed pokemon for a tiny little unofficial, so a tournament like that won't provide any useful information or actual insight into what the metagame would look like.

 

tl;dr: go ahead and do your tourny, but don't start throwing out arguments based on whatever happens in it

[DoubleJ]

Suspect time