[UU Discussion] Machamp

[Tyrone]

 

Important moves:

Fire punch

Thunderpunch

Ice punch

Bulk Up

Cross Chop

Earthquake

Rock Slide

Super Power

Light screen (protection from the big bad psychics even though no one will do it, it remains a possibility)

Rest

Sleep talk

 

Common sets:

 

CB

Machamp @ Choice Band
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- SuperPower
- Facade/Fire Punch/Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Thunderpunch

 

Bulk up

Machamp @ Leftovers
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Superpower
- Ice Punch
- Thunderpunch

 

Rest Talk

Machamp @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 156 Def / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Cross Chop
- Rock Slide

 

Previous Discussion thread.

 

RysPicz, on 14 Jun 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

Requesting a discussion thread for Machamp. What was happening on today's UU is the best proof that this needs to go away asap. It's sheer power of destroying walls is way too much for what we got in UU right now. Usually carries CB or Bulk Up Set, both are equally dangerous, carries a powerful Fighting STAB backed up by it's insane 130 base atk stat, fantastic ability in guts, and choice band or bulkup boost and 120 BP Superpower, even though slower, it simply outclasses WEELEE which already is an "S" ranked pokemon. Let's not also forget that it's quite bulky. It sweeps the majority if not the whole tier and is very hard to stop- falls under uber offensive characteristics.

 

[OrangeManiac]

I know that "not being able to get countered" hardly is a justification for a ban alone but the way it is with Machamp in the UU tier currently is just horrible based on my experience in yesterday's official. Machamp's CB Superpower just hurts so much that unless it's something like Claydol it will not take many of those resisted or not. Machamp's movepool is also huge with Superpower/Rock Slide/Earthquake/Elepunches. Also the Pokemon that do resist Machamp's Stab are really in horrible spot in UU Tier anyway, and that's Psychic types. Most of them have lost a lot of viability due to Umbreon movedown just being Pursuit trap baits for it. Then there are stuff like bulky Altaria or Gligar that with Flying-type can kinda take the Stab Superpowers but the fear of Ice Punch is just too big, in my opinion. For the unviability of Psychic-types I know you could argue that Umbreon is actually the broken one there but unless it is found not then I am totally convinced Machamp is just way too much for the UU metagame. And even without Umbreon it just hits too. damn. hard.

Edited June 14, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Rache]

A banded Machamp with a status ailment OHKOs pretty much the entire tier, and anything that it can't OHKO (literally only fully defensive Hypno/Donphan) can't even hope to stop it. Once a statused Machamp gets in on something that can't threaten it, it is going to kill something, or at the very least do a lot of damage if the user mispredicts. It's a little less scary when it isn't poisoned, but still extremely punishing.

 

Moveset: Superpower/Thunderpunch/Ice Punch/Thief. Probably not the best set though.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 252-297 (108.6 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scizor: 182-216 (102.8 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 204-240 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 183-216 (98.3 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 148-176 (88.6 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 176-208 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
 

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hypno: 152-180 (79.1 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 160-190 (81.2 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

 

Everything else is obviously OHKOd. I don't exactly have much experience with the tier, but on paper Machamp seems too strong for it.

Edited June 14, 2015 by RacheLucario
Replaced 100s calcs with 50s

[OrangeManiac]

Moveset: Superpower/Thunderpunch/Ice Punch/Thief. Probably not the best set though.

It is, actually.

[OrangeManiac]

Wait, so.. these discussion threads no longer are readable by community? So the only way to argue one way or another is the Tier Discussion thread? I kinda dislike this idea, to be fair. I think discussion threads should be open for everyone to read and comment, just that they can't make them by their own.

[Tyrone]

Wait, so.. these discussion threads no longer are readable by community? So the only way to argue one way or another is the Tier Discussion thread? I kinda dislike this idea, to be fair. I think discussion threads should be open for everyone to read and comment, just that they can't make them by their own.

This was actually meant as pre-discussion thread. One I put up in case we decided to make a public Discussion thread. So I could just copy paste information from this thread to the public.

[Artemiseta]

well I also argee that I saw the champ running around on basically every team in that touny. if you were not running it then you were doing something wrong (I would have been one of the people doing something wrong but that's ok I like weird teams). the only reliable check to it are psychics like grumping and hypno which are non existant in the meta especially as they are pursuit trapped by umbreon. umbreon doesn't even need to do much other than sit there as piggy in particular lacks a reliable recovery. hypno can wish protect away the damage dealt from switching in to champs attacks but champ could decide to stay and kill as psychic wont kill it. or run to umbeon. absorb the psyhic and then eiter puruit or toxic the hypno and stall it.

[Darkshade]

Wait, so.. these discussion threads no longer are readable by community? So the only way to argue one way or another is the Tier Discussion thread? I kinda dislike this idea, to be fair. I think discussion threads should be open for everyone to read and comment, just that they can't make them by their own.

 

This section is a replacement for the Private Messages system we have been using for the past two years.

It hasn't been created in an attempt to keep players from having an opinion but to organize the council and provide a better space for them to converse before things go public.

[BurntZebra]

Seems like a fairly obvious decision to me, as Rache pointed out, the choice band set has enough power to ohko or 2hko everything in the tier, assuming the user chooses the right move. Although I see the bulk up set as more threatening because it is less prediction reliant and helps vs people who rely on protect to take on choice banders. Look at yesterdays UU tournament, I saw protect on omastar, vileplume, chansey, hypno, and probably on umbreon for whoever ran one. Bulk up allows machamp to bypass methods of stopping it by boosting its defense, making a revenge kill from a physical attacker difficult to pull off, and returning to the power of choice band after 1 turn of set up. Anything besides hypno that comes in vs a machamp that bulks up will meet certain death as machamp outspeeds and 2hkos the bulky psychics that "counter" it. Although hypno and grumpig have the best typing for taking on bulk up machamp, they are rather underwhelming in a meta with umbreon, scizor, houndoom, and absol, and will typically not last very long after taking a stab pursuit and switching out (or dying if it was cb houndoom/absol). 

[Artemiseta]

thanks zebra I forgot about absol and doom in my post but pretty much spot on

I would think people run ada 252 att and 252 speed to get past walls and some checks I guess we can call them (even if afte bulk up they might not finish off the champ)

like to point out max speed jolly hits 117 speed which is very respectable in this tier and paces out of rang eof some of our other hard hitting cbers like phan and aggron and azumaril

[Robofiend]

assuming the user chooses the right move

 

Pretty big assumption, and it negates the chance for Bulk Up (which also prevents the champ from running all of the Fire/Ice/Thunder punch combo.

[fredrichnietze]

This was actually meant as pre-discussion thread. One I put up in case we decided to make a public Discussion thread. So I could just copy paste information from this thread to the public.

cant you just move the thread to another section?

 

@robo champ doesnt need all 3 punches. CC does more to rock/steel types with the exception of scizor and 

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scizor: 102-120 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

and ice punch=fire for the grass types.

ignoring the bugs atm as none of them viable in NU besides shuckle (which takes more form cc or super)

 

T punch is for 3 pokemon. tentacruel which is hit harder by EQ, mantine which no one uses in UU, and slowking. a +1 252 hp/att bulk up champ can 2hko slowking with t punch and only 3hko with EQ. since slowking can 2hko with 0 invested psychic  T punbch is the only way champ can beat slowking with psychic.

 

so a bulk champ can run CC or super / ice punch / EQ and have close to perfect coverage.

 

slowking, missy, hypno, and grumpig is a problem to this set, however a cb pursuit absol with 252 hp/att adamant beats all of them reliably. leaving champ a easy set up and several kills at the very least. also if champ gets status'ed it suddenly has no counters or checks. since slowking needs to be status'ed so badly that makes it either very easy to set up and get some kills with slowking, or very easy to get champ toxic'd and get some kills with champ depending on how conservatively your opponent plays. 

[BurntZebra]

I'd say thunderpunch>eq because slowking is very common and its definitely worth 2hkoing that as tentacruel can only 3-4hko machamp anyways and is ohko'ed by +1 tpunch as well. 

[Artemiseta]

only thing I can see for eq is a rare poison type like muk

the other electrics will die to CC/SP anyway

[Artemiseta]

anyone have any other thoughts about this one? should we move it to general discussion as well?

I havnt been on today to mess aroudn with random UU battles so im only absing on the UU tourny over weekend

PS srry for double post

[ThinkNice]

Can we all just blame Tyrone for ever suggesting it and pushing it out. I think it's pretty clear Machamp has no business in the UU tier. A suspect test should just be in place and maybe we should even have suspect voting, but I guess that doesn't really work without a ladder. I propose a suspect test on Machamp preferably starting as soon as possible. (So this means banning Machamp for a month and then voting on it after the test).

[NikhilR]

That works for me as well.

[NikhilR]

EDIT: Sorry about double post

Edited June 15, 2015 by NikhilR

[Senile]

Can we all just blame Tyrone for ever suggesting it and pushing it out. I think it's pretty clear Machamp has no business in the UU tier. A suspect test should just be in place and maybe we should even have suspect voting, but I guess that doesn't really work without a ladder. I propose a suspect test on Machamp preferably starting as soon as possible. (So this means banning Machamp for a month and then voting on it after the test).

There's literally no reason to "Suspect test" Machamp. It's been in the tier for a week. What are we testing? We barely even know what it's like in the tier, why are we pretending to test what the tier's like without it?

 

The only reason I can see to "Suspect test" it is simply as an excuse to have it out of the tier as soon as possible without technically doing a quick ban, since it wasn't quick banned, it was just "being tested", and turned out to be immediately banworthy.

 

I say we either Quick Ban it, or just outright "undo" the unbanning, because, as you said, it probably shouldn't have been moved down to begin with.

[NikhilR]

Hmm, could anything from OU possibly move down to UU in a month which could counter/check Machamp? Going by the changes in OU coming up, I assume that this could probably be the case. No harm in suspect testing because we could wait to see if any changes in UU could happen and assuming that no worthy changes happen, most of the community (including me) will be leaning on a perma ban. So ultimately it will lead to the same result.

Edited June 15, 2015 by NikhilR

[Senile]

Hmm, could anything from OU possibly move down to UU in a month which could counter/check Machamp? No harm in suspect testing because we could wait to see if any changes in UU could happen and assuming that no changes do happen, most of the community (including me) will be leaning on a perma ban. So ultimately it will lead to the same result most of the time. 

But the problem is that doesn't make any sense. Suspect testing it for a month would mean it'd be moved up for a month to test it, but we already know what the game is like without it since it's only been allowed for about a week and only for 1 tournament. To answer your point regarding anything maybe moving down that could answer Machamp, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and state a few things things; #1, No, no there probably won't be anything moved down that can answer it. #2, we might not even have valid OU usage stats in a month, depending on whether the Blissey/Snorlax bans end up being permanent, so even if there was a chance it's still not a good idea, and #3: The point of a suspect is to see a meta without said pokemon and see how the pokemon impacted the original metagame. A suspect test isn't a temporary ban that you do because something might get moved down that answers it. If that's your concern, just quickban Machamp and move it back down if some other things get moved down.

 

Beyond everything else, the third reason is, imo, the biggest point. We moved down 6 pokemon like, what, a week or two ago? We don't even really have a good idea of what the metagame looks like yet. Machamp seemed to be by far the best pokemon in the one UU official we had, and yet there really weren't that many Machamps there. That alone should tell us how early it is. We can't have a suspect test because we don't even know what the current metagame looks like to be able to see how different a metagame without Machamp is.

 

The reason I'm for a quick ban of Machamp isn't even just because of how dominanting it already is, although that's obviously a big factor, but it really shouldn't have been moved down anyway. Pretty much everyone agrees on this, as far as I can tell, so...why is it here, and why are we pretending a suspect test would actually be, well, a suspect test?

[ThinkNice]

I think undoing the unbanning is the logical step. No harm in admitting some mistakes. #blametyrone2015

[fredrichnietze]

regardless of whether we quick ban or un un ban champ. we need it out of UU.

also cb set>bulk set imo from what testing i have done.

[NikhilR]

But the problem is that doesn't make any sense. Suspect testing it for a month would mean it'd be moved up for a month to test it, but we already know what the game is like without it since it's only been allowed for about a week and only for 1 tournament. To answer your point regarding anything maybe moving down that could answer Machamp, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and state a few things things; #1, No, no there probably won't be anything moved down that can answer it. #2, we might not even have valid OU usage stats in a month, depending on whether the Blissey/Snorlax bans end up being permanent, so even if there was a chance it's still not a good idea, and #3: The point of a suspect is to see a meta without said pokemon and see how the pokemon impacted the original metagame. A suspect test isn't a temporary ban that you do because something might get moved down that answers it. If that's your concern, just quickban Machamp and move it back down if some other things get moved down.

 

Beyond everything else, the third reason is, imo, the biggest point. We moved down 6 pokemon like, what, a week or two ago? We don't even really have a good idea of what the metagame looks like yet. Machamp seemed to be by far the best pokemon in the one UU official we had, and yet there really weren't that many Machamps there. That alone should tell us how early it is. We can't have a suspect test because we don't even know what the current metagame looks like to be able to see how different a metagame without Machamp is.

 

The reason I'm for a quick ban of Machamp isn't even just because of how dominanting it already is, although that's obviously a big factor, but it really shouldn't have been moved down anyway. Pretty much everyone agrees on this, as far as I can tell, so...why is it here, and why are we pretending a suspect test would actually be, well, a suspect test?

 

Fair enough. I didn't want a suspect test to be there just so that we could hope for something to come down because that's based on chances but a suspect test / ban would mean no machamp in UU for a while so I was happy with either decision :P

 

Eitherways I get your point and like you mentioned about how only a few people had Machamp, if it continues to stay, then more of them will be on the rise and the result of matches would be based on "who can get their machamp to switch in most no. of times?"

[Tyrone]

Alright, looks like Machamp will return to BL again.

Can someone write up a quick-ban message for Machamp?