[OU Discussion] Gengar [Voted 6-1 in favor of banning]

[BurntZebra]

There's a slight difference between chansey at 34% usage and blissey and snorlax being both at 60-75%

[Robofiend]

There's a slight difference between chansey at 34% usage and blissey and snorlax being both at 60-75%

 

"Recall that usage is not the same as health, so you can't say "well 34% vs. 56%" and have that mean anything - there has to be a way in which Chansey is somehow good for an evolving metagame while Blissey was not"

[BurntZebra]

"Recall that usage is not the same as health, so you can't say "well 34% vs. 56%" and have that mean anything - there has to be a way in which Chansey is somehow good for an evolving metagame while Blissey was not"

There's also a difference between healthy and not unhealthy. Wynaut/dugtrio could be/are probably pretty meh for the meta but their usage doesn't reflect it. Similarly to chansey, if it was that unheathy/centralizing, don't you think it would be used a bit more than 4% more than porygon2 and it would actually be the most used pokemon?

[DoubleJ]

There's also a difference between healthy and not unhealthy. Wynaut/dugtrio could be/are probably pretty meh for the meta but their usage doesn't reflect it. Similarly to chansey, if it was that unheathy/centralizing, don't you think it would be used a bit more than 4% more than porygon2 and it would actually be the most used pokemon?

 

Porygon2 is a competitor for a special wall because it handles Gyarados and Jolteon arguably much better. 

 

 

EDIT: And the use of both on one team is arguably unfavorable because of a lack of offense and because of shared weaknesses. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Robofiend]

There's also a difference between healthy and not unhealthy. Wynaut/dugtrio could be/are probably pretty meh for the meta but their usage doesn't reflect it. Similarly to chansey, if it was that unheathy/centralizing, don't you think it would be used a bit more than 4% more than porygon2 and it would actually be the most used pokemon?

 

 

Landorus was banned for being unhealthy and was on less than 30% of teams, alongside other special sweepers and wallbreakers like Thundurus, Latios and Keldeo boom knowledge.

 

Also you're still dodging my question about what good Chansey does for the metagame - in which way is it healthy? People have already suggested it's not and you keep on running back to hide under the covers of usage % instead of addressing other ways that it might actually be good for the game. To recap:

 

We've said Chansey's not healthy because

- Usage shows a drop in use of special sweepers like Jolteon since Gengar ban 

- Usage shows a drop in use of special walls like Porygon, Venusaur, Umbreon since Gengar ban

- If you don't run a cleric against it you can immediately be at a disadvantage - it defends your walls from Toxic stall while threatening other's walls with Toxic stall

- Wish allows for extended longevity, awesome scouting and great team support that no other currently used special wall can offer

[BurntZebra]

Landorus was banned for being unhealthy and was on less than 30% of teams, alongside other special sweepers and wallbreakers like Thundurus, Latios and Keldeo boom knowledge.

 

Also you're still dodging my question about what good Chansey does for the metagame - in which way is it healthy? People have already suggested it's not and you keep on running back to hide under the covers of usage % instead of addressing other ways that it might actually be good for the game. To recap:

 

We've said Chansey's not healthy because

- Usage shows a drop in use of special sweepers like Jolteon since Gengar ban 

- Usage shows a drop in use of special walls like Porygon, Venusaur, Umbreon since Gengar ban

- If you don't run a cleric against it you can immediately be at a disadvantage - it defends your walls from Toxic stall while threatening other's walls with Toxic stall

- Wish allows for extended longevity, awesome scouting and great team support that no other currently used special wall can offer

It's not really worth trying to compare gen 6 to our pseudo gen 3 meta in terms of bans. And lando-i is not really similar at all to the unhealthiness to chansey. I'll quote their reasons for suspecting lando-i 

It's more similar to gengar than chansey in most regards to unhealthiness.

 

I'm not saying chansey is super healthy for the meta, but its no unhealthier than porygon2 either. But since you're looking for specifics, chansey is pretty much the only cleric left in OU. It allows for defensive/balanced teams to not get crushed by rain dance sweepers. It causes diversity with all the different counters it has (I won't list them since I listed them previously in this thread) and promotes the use of some lesser seen OU pokemon like venusaur, machamp, hariyama, marowak, etc. 

 

Another thing to consider is will the meta actually be healthier if chansey is banned? Jolteon will see even less usage as porygon2 stops it even harder, and anyone who has an idea of what is viable, will run porygon2. There aren't that many special sweepers in gen 3 even, just because the lack of choice scarf/specs/life orb/nasty plot. Starmie still sees a decent amount of usage with chansey since it has a pretty unique niche as a rapid spinner with instant recovery+natural cure and fairly nice speed/special attack. Calm minders won't be any more viable, as porygon2 and umbreon both 2hko the more threatening ones like espeon and alakazam. Metagross is also a huge threat to calm minders not named slowbro. 

 

Toxic stall isn't really a good argument to claim chansey is unhealthy. Any wall can spread toxic to a lot of different pokemon, or any status for that matter. You can either run a cleric user, a guts user, a poison type, a steel type, or just run enough offense to not let walls toxic you all day. 

 

I won't really make an argument about wish umbreon since its pretty bad and shouldn't even be used in OU, with or without chansey in the meta. But let's take vaporeon for example. I wouldn't say vaporeon is banworthy even though it can wish+protect to scout for moves and toxic stall with protect, just like umbreon wasn't banworthy in UU, with the wish+protect+toxic combination.

[DoubleJ]

The fallacy in your argument though is that Porygon2 and Chansey are equivalent special walls, because they simply are not. 

[BurntZebra]

The fallacy in your argument though is that Porygon2 and Chansey are equivalent special walls, because they simply are not. 

252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 70-84 (19.6 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Porygon2: 28-33 (14.5 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

oops porygon2 is better. I forgot. My argument has fallen apart

[DoubleJ]

252 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 70-84 (19.6 - 23.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Porygon2: 28-33 (14.5 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

oops porygon2 is better. I forgot. My argument has fallen apart

 

We already stated that it's a better wall against Jolteon, so don't be silly. Chansey is better against the rest of the special attackers by far. 

 

 

EDIT: And your last comment is unnecessary. It's just an attempt at eliciting emotion to distract from the argument. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by DoubleJ

[BurntZebra]

We already stated that it's a better wall against Jolteon, so don't be silly. Chansey is better against the rest of the special attackers by far. 

 

 

EDIT: And your last comment is unnecessary. It's just an attempt at eliciting emotion to distract from the argument. 

What other special attackers? I've addressed the deal with calm minders. It doesn't really matter if chansey takes slightly less damage from starmie surf than porygon, if porygon has instant recovery and is able to 2hko starmie. Enlighten me on the plethora of special attackers home to gen 3 though

[DoubleJ]

What other special attackers? I've addressed the deal with calm minders. It doesn't really matter if chansey takes slightly less damage from starmie surf than porygon, if porygon has instant recovery and is able to 2hko starmie. Enlighten me on the plethora of special attackers home to gen 3 though

 

Robo already posted an incredible list of how Chansey outclasses Porygon2 defensively. I don't think I need to reiterate, but I will post it once again for reference. 

 

 

Alright, lets look at the top 10 of usage to see exactly how wrong you are, because as it turns out, you're really fucking wrong. I'm going to write "X" if Chansey "walls" something and "+" if the pokemon can 2HKO it.

 

Metagross +

Arcanine X

Weezing X

Flygon + 

Chansey X

Porygon2 X

Ludicolo X

Magneton X (no one just keeps Chansey in after it uses Metal Sound)

Venusaur X

Aerodactyl X - RS is 3HKO

Starmie X

Slowbro X

Skarmory X

Gyarados X

Swampert + (assuming CB)

Dugtrio +

Cloyster X

Jolteon X

Forretress X 

Heracross + 

Dusclops X

Gardevoir X

Vaporeon X

Ursaring +

 

So in reality the correct statement is that "Chansey walls most pokemon who are on more than 10% of teams". 18/24 pokemon have X's here, that's 75%. So no, most of the metagame does not fucking 2HKO Chansey, please make some other point.

 

Thus we say that Chansey does have good defense against most of the metagame, along with great support to keep its wall teammates healthy in the face of setup attackers like Ursaring or Heracross. Saying that it's Uber offense could be a stretch, but its support capabilities are pretty unreal. It singlehandedly stops the other instant heal pokemon (Arc, Slowbro, Porygon, Ludi) from dying to Toxic and has great special defense.

 

More than Chansey's defensive effectiveness though, or the fact that it runs Protect (you're srs straw manning here, no one is suggesting we ban anything because it learns Protect), Chansey is just too good not to use. It fits on any team because it's a 100% perfect counter to Toxic stall, which brings down every other wall in the game. There's no downside when the top specially defensive pokemon (and important attackers like Slowbro, Porygon2 and Ludicolo) can get wall-stalled by Toxic and die. Chansey basically outclasses any special wall since it can provide reliable damage with Seismic Toss while also preventing counter-walling with Toxic. Just by having Chansey on your team you're immediately immune to Toxic, thus supercharging all of your physical/mixed walls for free.

 

TL;DR - there's a reasonably argument for Chansey being Uber Defense, but an even more reasonable one for it being unhealthy, centralizing, and "too good not to use" enough that we shouldn't keep it around.

 

 

 

EDIT: And without the opportunity to switch in and trace Thunderbolt, Porygon2 cannot avoid STAB Thunderbolt. While this scenario is rare, it is still a possibility that Chansey does not have to endure. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by DoubleJ

[BurntZebra]

Robo already posted an incredible list of how Chansey outclasses Porygon2 defensively. I don't think I need to reiterate, but I will post it once again for reference. 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: And without the opportunity to switch in and trace Thunderbolt, Porygon2 cannot avoid STAB Thunderbolt. While this scenario is rare, it is still a possibility that Chansey does not have to endure. 

Porygon takes hits pretty much the same as chansey from the pokemon you listed. In some cases porygon is favorable, since porygon can switch in on flygon eq, gyarados in most situations, dusclops (focus punch wrecks chansey anyways since no way to avoid the hit), and porygon just has a favorable match up vs a lot of them just from coverage. Cloyster isn't really scared out by chansey since it can only do a 50 damage attack or toxic, nothing more, possibly less if it decides to wish. Cloyster is scared out by porygon since its ohko'ed by thunderbolt. Same with a lot of the other pokemon that chansey walls. 

 

In most cases, porygon2 will be tracing volt absorb, and if not, then jolteon would have to come in vs a porygon2 thats below 30% health and not have porygon2 recover. It is quite the unlikely situation and the same situation could occur with chansey, although with a bit more drastic coincidences. 

[Robofiend]

It's not really worth trying to compare gen 6 to our pseudo gen 3 meta in terms of bans. And lando-i is not really similar at all to the unhealthiness to chansey. I'll quote their reasons for suspecting lando-i 

It's more similar to gengar than chansey in most regards to unhealthiness.

 

I'm not saying chansey is super healthy for the meta, but its no unhealthier than porygon2 either. But since you're looking for specifics, chansey is pretty much the only cleric left in OU. It allows for defensive/balanced teams to not get crushed by rain dance sweepers. It causes diversity with all the different counters it has (I won't list them since I listed them previously in this thread) and promotes the use of some lesser seen OU pokemon like venusaur, machamp, hariyama, marowak, etc. 

 

Another thing to consider is will the meta actually be healthier if chansey is banned? Jolteon will see even less usage as porygon2 stops it even harder, and anyone who has an idea of what is viable, will run porygon2. There aren't that many special sweepers in gen 3 even, just because the lack of choice scarf/specs/life orb/nasty plot. Starmie still sees a decent amount of usage with chansey since it has a pretty unique niche as a rapid spinner with instant recovery+natural cure and fairly nice speed/special attack. Calm minders won't be any more viable, as porygon2 and umbreon both 2hko the more threatening ones like espeon and alakazam. Metagross is also a huge threat to calm minders not named slowbro. 

 

Toxic stall isn't really a good argument to claim chansey is unhealthy. Any wall can spread toxic to a lot of different pokemon, or any status for that matter. You can either run a cleric user, a guts user, a poison type, a steel type, or just run enough offense to not let walls toxic you all day. 

 

I won't really make an argument about wish umbreon since its pretty bad and shouldn't even be used in OU, with or without chansey in the meta. But let's take vaporeon for example. I wouldn't say vaporeon is banworthy even though it can wish+protect to scout for moves and toxic stall with protect, just like umbreon wasn't banworthy in UU, with the wish+protect+toxic combination.

 

The Lando-I point isn't about the reasoning for or against the ban. It's showing that health and usage rate aren't the same thing. 

 

Umbreon's still a cleric, I don't see why it should have to be outclassed by Chansey. Umbreon also just isn't as good as Chansey because Pursuit doesn't do much but stop Starmie, and unlike Seismic Toss, it doesn't threaten Choice Banders who switch in.

 

Chansey might protect against Kingdra or Ludi but not against other types of Rain offense (like Kabutops). Porygon2 can also stall out Rain Offense with Toxic as long as Kingdra/Ludi don't run Rain+Toxic and Rest. Lastly, Tentacruel's been pointed out as a good protection against Rain, although it remains to be seen how effective it'd be at dealing with anything else in OU so you have a point here.

 

Vaporeon has to carry Hell Bell to beat Toxic stall, which in your case would give it no offense. Chansey's just better because it can take the risk of getting statused - Natural Cure is a big plus. Without Surf Vap's Heracross/Ursaring bait and can't defend itself as well against Jolteon or Starmie, both of whom have one less relatively hard counter if Chansey were banned. Without Toxic it also become Metagross bait, which can be bad.

 

Calm minders have an even tougher time with Chansey in the picture. Chansey can win if they attack first instead of CM/Sub and can at least Toxic, absorb the Sync'd poison and then switch out and try to get Espeon/Zam/Slowbro to waste turns (or better yet, sack something and bring in Tauros/Aero/Heracross) and Pursuit trap them when Toxic damage starts piling up.

 

A couple other pokemon can Toxic stall (Slowbro, Porygon, Arcanine, Ludi) but none of them can beat it. Skarm has to give up Rest or Drill Peck, Porygon can use Facade (you have a point there). Others like Vaporeon and Umbreon can, but they also have resistance holes and other downsides (mostly lack of NC and lack of Seismic Toss) that make them inferior to Chansey.

 

The fact that we're even discussing Toxic this much just speaks to how common it is and how effective it is against the current metagame. Without Chansey you can still block Toxic stall by using Venusaur, Skarmory, or something with Heal Bell. But the point is that using something like Vaporeon can be a big problem if your opponent has pokemon to beat it or work around your core (e.g. Espeon, who Chansey can at least provide some answer to with Toxic)

 

TL;DR - that's a lot of different points, and they are points, but I almost entirely disagree. You're downplaying its ability, typing (especially this), and strength as both a special wall and cleric at the same time, and that's leading you to some bad conclusions.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Robofiend

[BurntZebra]

 

 

TL;DR - that's a lot of different points, and they are points, but I almost entirely disagree. You're downplaying its ability, typing (especially this), and strength as both a special wall and cleric at the same time, and that's leading you to some bad conclusions.

 

 Well I won't bother replying to most of the post since I don't think we will ever reach a conclusion but I'll reply to the tl;dr.

 

 

To be honest, natural cure isn't that important. Like you said, most stuff doesn't really run toxic, since people run several toxic immunities and I ran into a lot of people who ran starmie and chansey together. Burns aren't that crippling to pokemon that are special attackers or immune to it (arcanine). Typing, we've been over this. Porygon2 shares the same typing and its a pretty great typing in gen 3 where there's no super effective special attack to threaten them. But being a normal type wall isn't banworthy, unless we're planning on banning porygon2 since its normal typing and has similar usage (would most definitely be higher if chansey was banned, and would be much more centralizing). The strength of a special wall. I don't really see a huge difference between chansey getting 6hko'ed by starmie while porygon2 is 5hko'ed (or any other special wall for that matter, except venusaur since dat psychic weakness), since they both have instant recovery.

 

I also believe you're exaggerating its cleric abilities. Firstly, it can't really afford to run wish+aroma on one set, especially since a lot of the arguments have been that protect+seismic toss+toxic deal with a lot its counters. So let's just forget about aroma at the moment, since softboiled chansey just loses a lot worse to choice banders than wish/protect. I feel like there are a lot of assumptions when you're talking about wish passes. There are so many situations where chansey needs to recover its health and can't actually wish pass to something else. There are also situations where chansey tries to heal itself, but when its the turn where chansey protects, the pokemon sent out is a boosting physical attacker. Chansey at this point can't protect without risk of dealing with a +2 ursaring/marowak or +1 atk/def fighting type, or it will remain at a low hp and be forced to switch out, and has to be extremely careful about switching in again, and then even if it gets in, wishing again can lead to the same situation before. 

 

Basically most of my arguments about chansey are that banning chansey won't really make the meta any more healthier since special attackers won't get any more viable and that chansey isn't really that op at stopping anything, since all the other special walls can do it as well and have actual offensive capabilities (except umbreon)

[Robofiend]

Yeah but without Chansey in the meta you can run stuff like Toxic Slowbro/Arcanine/Jolteon if you wanted to poison P2 - thus offensive teams can work around stall, which is hard right now because Chansey negates pretty much anything but Choice Banders or fighting types. You may not think Toxic is important, but it's one of the only ways for offense to work around stall/semistall because without NC you need to spend a turn somewhere using Heal Bell, and offense only works when you have free turns to get attackers into play. With NC Chansey all you need to do with send in Chansey to absorb a Toxic and then you can switch out for free and bring something else into play.

 

You're right that few Chansey run Heal Bell, but that's largely because of how effective NC is at preventing status from breaking through walls (like it should). 

 

Even if Porygon gets 5HKO'd, its lack of team support is very apparent when you consider that it can't pass wishes and it opens the door for other scary pokemon like Metagross to sweep.

 

Just doesn't seem like you're considering Chansey's abilities holistically - just nitpicking off small facts and then likening them to things that already exist but are considerably worse at doing their job than Chansey.

[DoubleJ]

It seems like we're just going in circles on the matter of Chansey. I'd like to propose a vote, but unfortunately we really haven't heard from Gbwead, Art, or Orangemaniac on banning Chansey along with Gengar.

 

So what's on the table, and what should we pursue?

 

1. Ban Gengar alone

2. Ban Gengar and Quick Ban Chansey 

3. Don't ban Gengar 

 

 

From discussion it appears that the majority of our members would like to ban Gengar. I personally am against this, but if the majority wants Gengar gone, then I'm in support of banning Gengar with a quick ban on Chansey. 

[gbwead]

I also support banning Gengar with a quick ban on Chansey.

When you consider playing trapinch with rest and toxic, you know something is really wrong.
I remember watching a duel between Lightleaks vs Eloyriptor where Chansey was an absolute pain for both side. Eloyriptoŕ´s chansey died at 76 mins and the entire match ended 2 mins after. Chansey is to me way too centralising to remain in OU.

I vote #2.

Edited October 1, 2015 by lamerb

[Noad]

If you want to have the option to quick ban Chansey alongside Gengar then please make sure a public discussion thread is written up and posted asap. I dont want there to be unhappy players complaining about "not getting a say" or "wow we got no warning, thanks Obama". Please make sure to communicate that a quick ban alongside Gengar is currently being considered but that nothing is set in stone yet. 

 

Thanks!

[NikhilR]

Option no.2

[DoubleJ]

If you want to have the option to quick ban Chansey alongside Gengar then please make sure a public discussion thread is written up and posted asap. I dont want there to be unhappy players complaining about "not getting a say" or "wow we got no warning, thanks Obama". Please make sure to communicate that a quick ban alongside Gengar is currently being considered but that nothing is set in stone yet. 

 

Thanks!

 

Noad, do you mind if I write it really quick? 

[Noad]

Noad, do you mind if I write it really quick? 

I have no problem with that - pretty sure Robo wont care either judging by his posts in this thread regarding Chansey.

[DoubleJ]

K, I'll work it up right meow

[Noad]

[DoubleJ]

 

After reviewing the usage statistics and the recent play throughout the PokeMarathon OU Tournament series this past weekend, it has become apparent that Chansey's use in OU is beginning to rise. This is concerning to the Tier Council considering it shares a lot of the same traits as Blissey, which was banned for being unhealthy in the OU tier. It is apparent that Chansey is capable of walling nearly every special attacker in the tier and it has a significant support move-pool to add. It has little concern for status thanks to Natural Cure and Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, and it commonly carries Protect to scout choice banded attacks. 

Considering all of this, it is apparent that Chansey is not only a good special wall, but also a generally good wall against the entire OU tier. It can pivot in on many different attacks and cripple opponents with Toxic and/or Thunder Wave. It can also wear most opponents down with Seismic Toss considering the only common Ghost-type currently is Dusclops, which does not appreciate Toxic. Wish passing is a successful strategy, but there is concern that Chansey is capable of doing this too well thanks to its impressive defensive traits. Currently it seems that Chansey is just "too good not to use". 

 

With all of this in mind, the Tier Council is discussing a possible Quick Ban on Chansey. This Quick Ban will take place alongside a possible ban on Gengar from OU, which has been under discussion for quite some time. The thinking behind banning Chansey along with Gengar is because Gengar is able to pressure Chansey in multiple ways. It is immune to Chansey's only form of offense (Seismic Toss + Toxic) and can obtain a free Substitute with most switch-ins. Gengar really hurts Chansey usage and without a check like Gengar in the tier, Chansey can and has risen to the top of the defensive pyramid. 

 

Although, the Tier Council does not want to make a rash decision based on our discussion alone and thus we would like to see feedback from the community regarding Chansey, and whether it may be unhealthy for the OU tier should Gengar be banned. 

 

 

Common Sets:

 

Wish

Nature: Bold

Ability: Natural Cure

Item: Leftovers

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Defense or 252 Defense / 252 SpDef

• Wish
• Protect
• Seismic Toss
• Toxic / Thunder Wave

 

Cleric 

Nature: Bold

Ability: Natural Cure

Item: Leftovers

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Defense or 252 Defense / 252 SpDef

• Seismic Toss
• Toxic / Thunder Wave
• Softboiled
• Aromatherapy

 

 

[Noad]

Nice job as always!