[OU Discussion] Gengar [Voted 6-1 in favor of banning]

[DrCraig]

zebra didn't mean it like that, he was joking dude
He knows I runn tier council, he was just being a good jester
Chill

[DoubleJ]

zebra didn't mean it like that, he was joking dude
He knows I runn tier council, he was just being a good jester
Chill

 

I'm just trying to discuss alternatives if a suspect ban on Gengar proves a failure. The alternatives I'm discussing would be something that the overseeing council would have to discuss. I was also hoping for a serious conversation, especially from the OU Council themselves. 

[BurntZebra]

And this is the nonsensical lack of common sense kind of stuff that led us down this road in the first place. It's also an unnecessary attempt at belittling a fellow tier council member and an attempt at intimidation through potential bullying. For shame zebra.

 

A complex ban on Curselax is reasonable, possible, and healthy for the meta. It is also an alternative to banning Snorlax, Blissey, Gengar, and potentially more, which is what we're facing now. 

 

Another interesting point is that the overseeing council makes decisions on Complex and Flat bans, not the individual councils. So the responsibility isn't even in Zebra's hands, or mine. 

 

 

"The Overseeing Council is lead by Darkshade, LeTyrone and Noad, members of this council are Artemiseta and OrangeManiac. The overseeing council's purpose is:

- Overseeing and maintaining the tierlist policies.

- Reviewing every proposed change from the councils. 

- Handling broader aspects of tiering such as; complex bans and flat bans on moves and abilities. "

I actually am on the overseeing council, I guess OU tier council took longer than UU and NU to decide, but robo felt he wasn't active enough and craig was just a newcomer to the OU tier council, so here I am. (lf noad to update it)

 

Although you are right that the overseeing council deals with complex bans, they do not act alone, since a complex ban on snorlax, would only deal with OU and no other tier. The complex bans more specifically handled by the overseeing council would possibly be a 1 baton pass user per team ban across all the tiers or other bans like those. 

[DrCraig]

I'm just trying to discuss alternatives if a suspect ban on Gengar proves a failure. The alternatives I'm discussing would be something that the overseeing council would have to discuss. I was also hoping for a serious conversation, especially from the OU Council themselves.

  

You sound like you run OU. Even saw you post in normal chat that you were responsible for Snorlax/Blissey ban. Should probs tone back the "me" stuff. 
 
Nevertheless, we're just going to have to wait and see what this meta will be like with Gengar gone since that's the only way to prove to the three of you that this is a bad idea.

Bullshit

[gbwead]

I'm sure most you guys will disagree with me (actually i am 99% sure you all will), but I think maybe Gengar is not the only unhealthy pokemon in the meta (or at least he isn't the cause of the unhealthiness). For instance, if Metagross was not in the tier, several spdef walls from UU and NU would actually become viable in OU. Cradily and Nidoqueen would do extremely well against Gengar.

 

[hr]

 

I am not a big fan of complex bans in general. However, I think complex banning "substitute" on Gengar would actually be a good alternative to simply banning Gengar (I would hate going back to the Bliss/Lax meta ... plz no). IMO, substitute is the key to Gengar versatibility and without that move he would be less threathening. 

 

Is it possible to complex ban an item on a pokemon? Fearow without CB?

 

I honnestly doubt I would be in favor of any kind of complex ban. I was just curious.

[DoubleJ]

I'm sure most you guys will disagree with me (actually i am 99% sure you all will), but I think maybe Gengar is not the only unhealthy pokemon in the meta (or at least he isn't the cause of the unhealthiness). For instance, if Metagross was not in the tier, several spdef walls from UU and NU would actually become viable in OU. Cradily and Nidoqueen would do extremely well against Gengar.

 

[hr]

 

I am not a big fan of complex bans in general. However, I think complex banning "substitute" on Gengar would actually be a good alternative to simply banning Gengar (I would hate going back to the Bliss/Lax meta ... plz no). IMO, substitute is the key to Gengar versatibility and without that move he would be less threathening. 

 

Is it possible to complex ban an item on a pokemon? Fearow without CB?

 

I honnestly doubt I would be in favor of any kind of complex ban. I was just curious.

 

And these examples are what the old council worried about when considering a complex ban on Curse Lax. If we complex ban one thing, there opens the door to future complex bans. If anything, we should modify the complex ban rules or remove them from policy altogether since that's what people think is the case anyhoos. 

 

Again though, complex banning Curse lax might improve the meta and allow for a smaller ban list. 

[Robofiend]

Look we're not fucking complex banning stuff unless we're really out of options and we're not really out of options.

 

It's almost like you guys don't realize that you're saying "We'll just do this one non-stupid complex ban and then in the future when people come up with dumbshit Complex bans we'll shoot them down" without realizing that your very ideas are just as stupid and just as viable as banning Dragon Claw on Salamence. Sorry to be harsh, but if you (JJ/Gbwead) have been involved with tiering for as long as either of you have and you still want to talk to the OU council about Complex bans then all I can do is compare you to Cody, and you don't want that. 

 

I want to be more civil about this but I really have no idea of reasoning with something as long-discussed and consistently shut down as complex bans. 

 

It's like people are blinded by how "fun" Snorlax is that they fail to realize we're just going to end up in a metagame with 75% Snorlax usage, mandatory WhirlWind to prevent Dugtrio trapping, Gengar still on every team, Starmie, Jolteon and pretty much any other special sweeper being unviable, and no special wall diversity to exploit with different pokes/strategies. 

 

"But but but Chansey!" you say. "It walls special sweepers!" It's also really bad at doing anything but being a blob, meaning it dies to traps like Dugtrio and opens the door for Status sponges like Ursaring to come in and start crushing stuff with Guts + its good movepool.

 

TL;DR - even if Complex bans somehow got the "OK" from the overseeing Council, you've still got at least two votes against any OU Complex ban from me and Zebra so it's really a lost cause to spend all this energy debating about them. 

[Noad]

Please try to avoid taking swipes at each other where possible, it isn't fun for me to have to sift through bitchy remarks to get to the good stuff that I need to know. 

 

Relevant points:

• JJ and gbwead were not doing any harm talking about complex bans, it is okay to suggest and explore options. At the end of the day the do not get a vote on the matter but it is still nice of them to give their opinions and input. Everyone is going to have different perspectives on issues, but the OU Council will always get the final say on what happens in the tier.
• At this moment in time from reading the points bought forward, I feel a test ban may be the best option we have. IF we were to test ban Gengar we need to decide for how many tournaments so I can arrange for OU officials to be hosted.
• Zebra has been added to the over seeing council list.

[DrCraig]

 

Please try to avoid taking swipes at each other where possible, it isn't fun for me to have to sift through uguuy remarks to get to the good stuff that I need to know. 

 

Relevant points:

• JJ and gbwead were not doing any harm talking about complex bans, it is okay to suggest and explore options. At the end of the day the do not get a vote on the matter but it is still nice of them to give their opinions and input. Everyone is going to have different perspectives on issues, but the OU Council will always get the final say on what happens in the tier.
• At this moment in time from reading the points bought forward, I feel a test ban may be the best option we have. IF we were to test ban Gengar we need to decide for how many tournaments so I can arrange for OU officials to be hosted.
• Zebra has been added to the over seeing council list.

 

If we test ban Gengar I propose we ban it until the next time we make moves based on usage. Probably a month and a half by now? A tournament per week would be nice.

[Robofiend]

If we test ban Gengar I propose we ban it until the next time we make moves based on usage. Probably a month and a half by now? A tournament per week would be nice.

 

 

 

 

 

Please try to avoid taking swipes at each other where possible, it isn't fun for me to have to sift through uguuy remarks to get to the good stuff that I need to know. 

 

Relevant points:

• JJ and gbwead were not doing any harm talking about complex bans, it is okay to suggest and explore options. At the end of the day the do not get a vote on the matter but it is still nice of them to give their opinions and input. Everyone is going to have different perspectives on issues, but the OU Council will always get the final say on what happens in the tier.
• At this moment in time from reading the points bought forward, I feel a test ban may be the best option we have. IF we were to test ban Gengar we need to decide for how many tournaments so I can arrange for OU officials to be hosted.
• Zebra has been added to the over seeing council list.

 

 

Yeah sorry Noad/JJ/Gb - shouldn't call you stupid but it is frustrating to read all of these left field ideas when we should be debating things that are actually on the table.  

 

I'm actually leaning more toward not banning Gengar (right now) for a couple reasons:

 

The meta isn't *that* unhealthy: there is adaption going on, which is cool. People are adapting to Gengar by running stall, but Stall is pretty weak against other threats. For instance, people have recently realized they can beat balanced Gengar teams with stall teams, so they're gaining popularity. However, people have yet to realize that an OU Stall team really struggles with SD Ursaring - which will cause more changes in play. Part of me feels like OU players are complaining because they can't cover every threat 100% with stall, which should be true. We should maintain some importance in matchup dynamics to prevent a dominant team archetype from emerging - and I'm fairly certain that we'd see the "dominant team achetype" arise out of either a Snorlax meta or a Gengar-less meta.

 

Granted, we could still test ban it, because there are aspects of Gengar that might be too much. But I think we're expecting a bit much out of the "slow adapting meta" since we're now in the phase where most players have adapted to Gengar's presence and now other threats may be more advantageous.

[DoubleJ]

Did you even read what I wrote? I opted for a complex ban on curse or a reset of the ou tier if this gengar suspect ban failed.

And again you failed to recognize that starmie had better usage in the meta with lax and bliss, at least according to the usage stats we have available to us in comp alley.

So I don't appreciate all this bullshit coming from robo, craig, or zebra. It all looks like senile from 2014. So man up and don't force noad to come in and slap your hands for being childish. We're trying to do some good here.

I'm glad robo is starting to see that the tier right now is fairly balanced. As I had bet writing in the discussion threads the only viable argument for banning gengar anymore is how centralizing it is, which I mean still isn't that bad.

It's usage dropped. It's uber characteristics are gone. And the meta is seeing multiple playstyles.

Edited August 20, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Noad]

Eh I see where you are coming from, Robo. I noticed JJ packing an Ursaring in last night's final, but some of the shittiest RNG screwed him over(that Dugtrio Spikes Leichi boost made me cry). It's given me a kick up the butt to go and do the usage that needs doing so we can see how OU is doing. 

[Robofiend]

So I don't appreciate all this bullshit coming from robo, craig, or zebra. It all looks like senile from 2014. So man up and don't force noad to come in and slap your hands for being childish. We're trying to do some good here.

 

I did read what you wrote, but I don't think that Complex bans are a legit solution, even if we decide to ban Gengar and that doesn't do any good. I think that the meta we have now is better than the meta we had before but not exactly perfect - bringing Snorlax back (in any form) would undo a lot of the work we've done to make OU a more balanced place.

 

I'm not saying you can't present other ideas, but you shouldn't be that surprised that we're all giving you shit, given how me and the rest of the TC (including Senile, who makes me look gentle when it comes to flaming people) has responded to Complex Bans in the past. All in all, no hard feels, just being ultra direct that I think the Complex Ban approach is a bad idea. I'd rather just unban Tyranitar/Lax lul.

[Robofiend]

alright so 

 

 

Arguments for banning Gengar:

 

1. It's super centralizing. In my view, this is almost not debateable: Gengar's really good and a well-designed team has to bend over backwards to fully cover all of its sets. When you combine great sweeping potential with pro support and defense, you get Gengar, and there's some reason to believe that it prevents the game from growing.

 

Arguments against:

 

1. Gengar prevents two undesirable tactics from being too important: Stall & Trapping. Without Gengar it's pretty easy to run Mag/Normal Spam and get away with it. Additionally, without Gengar there's less punishment for running Spikers and spinners, creating a ton of gameplay around keeping/preventing Spikes from forcing the match. Special walls like Chansey are extremely viable without Gengar (who can otherwise stall it to death or pair with Ursaring to break stall) and there are a lot of reasons to run Dugtrio in an attempt to stop stall/balance as well. The ultimate problem with all of this is that it seems that matchup can play too large a role in determining the outcome.

 

2. Stall is balanced with other playstyles even with Gengar in the meta (as evidenced by Stall players winning tournaments pre ban) so it's not like removing Gengar changed playstyle diversity for the better. In fact, it's reasonable to say that the lack of Gengar makes offense totally unviable, while before it was mildly useful in part because Gengar could Taunt/PainSplit/Focus Punch/Perish Song opposing, unruly walls.

 

Idk what the point is here, just trying to get the debate going

[BurntZebra]

alright so 

 

 

Arguments for banning Gengar:

 

1. It's super centralizing. In my view, this is almost not debateable: Gengar's really good and a well-designed team has to bend over backwards to fully cover all of its sets. When you combine great sweeping potential with pro support and defense, you get Gengar, and there's some reason to believe that it prevents the game from growing.

 

Arguments against:

 

1. Gengar prevents two undesirable tactics from being too important: Stall & Trapping. Without Gengar it's pretty easy to run Mag/Normal Spam and get away with it. Additionally, without Gengar there's less punishment for running Spikers and spinners, creating a ton of gameplay around keeping/preventing Spikes from forcing the match. Special walls like Chansey are extremely viable without Gengar (who can otherwise stall it to death or pair with Ursaring to break stall) and there are a lot of reasons to run Dugtrio in an attempt to stop stall/balance as well. The ultimate problem with all of this is that it seems that matchup can play too large a role in determining the outcome.

 

2. Stall is balanced with other playstyles even with Gengar in the meta (as evidenced by Stall players winning tournaments pre ban) so it's not like removing Gengar changed playstyle diversity for the better. In fact, it's reasonable to say that the lack of Gengar makes offense totally unviable, while before it was mildly useful in part because Gengar could Taunt/PainSplit/Focus Punch/Perish Song opposing, unruly walls.

 

Idk what the point is here, just trying to get the debate going

I'll mostly address the arguments against.

 

If you look at the usage stats, trapping isn't really that much more common. Magneton is pretty much the same usage before and after the gengar ban. It has always been a part of the meta, regardless of what pokemon were there, although it was probably most common when snorlax was unbanned if I had to guess. Dugtrio has a slight increase in usage, although the usage from pre gengar ban is a bit spread around, varying from like 6% to 15%, while dugtrio in post gengar ban is at 16% usage atm, although will most likely change after Noad does the usage for these 3 OU tournaments. So trapping isn't really all that common/it hasn't increased in use significantly since gengar was test banned.

 

I'd also make an argument that no one is actually running "stall" now in this meta. People think running 3 walls and 3 offensive attackers is stall now, which is kind of fogging up arguments about the health of the meta. People have said frags runs stall to win tournaments, but when I played/spectated him, he ran flygon/aerodactyl/gyarados along with 3 walls. I attempted to run stall in one of the past OU tournaments, with a bit more of a gimmick team with stuff like glalie/armaldo. I won round 1 with it, but after looking at it/playing with it, I realized full stall just has a hard time winning, with not many good win cons and having to deal with tons of threats like sd heracross, sd ursaring, bulk up machamp, curse swampert, cb metagross, blaziken, dugtrio+special attack teams, calm minders that can take on chansey, powerful pursuit users, and a lot of other stuff. Stall doesn't really have a win condition either, basically just relying on wearing down the opponent with status/spikes, since calm mind slowbro can't really sweep that well and there aren't that many other win conditions that fit on a stall team. 

 

The people who won tournaments in pre gengar ban meta were definitely not running stall. They may have run 2-3 walls, but definitely not 4-5 walls. Those 2-3 walls weren't for physical attackers either, two of them were most likely dedicated to stopping gengar.  I don't know if you watched the meta with gengar, robo, but it was pretty sickening imo. People were just sacking stuff vs gengar to get a hit off so they could pursuit trap gengar with aerodactyl to take out gengar. I felt like if I was able to take out a gengar by only sacrificing one pokemon on my team, then it was a mission accomplished, since gengar is just so difficult to take down.

[NikhilR]

I'll mostly address the arguments against.

 

If you look at the usage stats, trapping isn't really that much more common. Magneton is pretty much the same usage before and after the gengar ban. It has always been a part of the meta, regardless of what pokemon were there, although it was probably most common when snorlax was unbanned if I had to guess. Dugtrio has a slight increase in usage, although the usage from pre gengar ban is a bit spread around, varying from like 6% to 15%, while dugtrio in post gengar ban is at 16% usage atm, although will most likely change after Noad does the usage for these 3 OU tournaments. So trapping isn't really all that common/it hasn't increased in use significantly since gengar was test banned.

 

I'd also make an argument that no one is actually running "stall" now in this meta. People think running 3 walls and 3 offensive attackers is stall now, which is kind of fogging up arguments about the health of the meta. People have said frags runs stall to win tournaments, but when I played/spectated him, he ran flygon/aerodactyl/gyarados along with 3 walls. I attempted to run stall in one of the past OU tournaments, with a bit more of a gimmick team with stuff like glalie/armaldo. I won round 1 with it, but after looking at it/playing with it, I realized full stall just has a hard time winning, with not many good win cons and having to deal with tons of threats like sd heracross, sd ursaring, bulk up machamp, curse swampert, cb metagross, blaziken, dugtrio+special attack teams, calm minders that can take on chansey, powerful pursuit users, and a lot of other stuff. Stall doesn't really have a win condition either, basically just relying on wearing down the opponent with status/spikes, since calm mind slowbro can't really sweep that well and there aren't that many other win conditions that fit on a stall team. 

 

The people who won tournaments in pre gengar ban meta were definitely not running stall. They may have run 2-3 walls, but definitely not 4-5 walls. Those 2-3 walls weren't for physical attackers either, two of them were most likely dedicated to stopping gengar.  I don't know if you watched the meta with gengar, robo, but it was pretty sickening imo. People were just sacking stuff vs gengar to get a hit off so they could pursuit trap gengar with aerodactyl to take out gengar. I felt like if I was able to take out a gengar by only sacrificing one pokemon on my team, then it was a mission accomplished, since gengar is just so difficult to take down.

 

1) Trapping may not be all that common, but it's one of the best ways to win. 

 

2) a) Zebra, all you're talking about is ONE person (Frags) running a non stall team. Frags has played matches where he ran Ludicolo / Chansey / Cloyster / Bulky Metagross too. Frags is just one of the many 64 players. I myself ran a bit of stall and offense and I was more likely to win with stall. In my first round, I encountered someone runing bulky arcanine / cloyster / chansey / weezing (thats 4 walls) and a Kingdra. Sadly I do not remember the 5th. Like that the one thing EVERY team has in common is Chansey and that promotes stall heavily since it discourages the use of choicebanders or special attackers. Chansey will continue to pass wish to the counters of choicebanders and act as a pivot for almost any team. Gengar was the one pokemon capable of switching into Chansey and breaking it and it's gone. 

 

2) b ) SD Heracross isn't that viable considering how common Arcanine and Skarmory is. Curse Swampert is the least viable of all seeing as how every team runs a pokemon with a grass type or a grass move. Bulk Up Machamp gets screwed over by Slowbro and wouldn't appreciate the counter from skarmory if it decides to attack. Skarmory learning counter can even beat SD Ursaring if it decides to fire punch leaving you with the prediction of whether you're supposed to SD or attack. What calm minders are you referring to that can take on Chansey? It has to be somewhat viable and toxic nearly wears down all of them. Powerful pursuit users, NEED choiceband in order to hit hard and Chansey can just protect on it and start screwing around with it. Mentioning pursuit itself is a sign of how trapping is still powerful in this meta. 

 

2) c) Seeing as how offensive teams NEED spikes to break down other teams, it just goes to show how powerful stall is, since you need that extra support. You're forgetting the part where stall itself can set up spikes and limits the opponent's team from switching in easily. 

 

3) The Gengar meta may have been sickening, but you cannot call this meta any healthier seeing Chansey be a cancer like how it was in UU. If you want a healthier meta, ban Chansey to Ubers and that will be better. 

[BurntZebra]

1) Trapping may not be all that common, but it's one of the best ways to win. 

 

2) a) Zebra, all you're talking about is ONE person (Frags) running a non stall team. Frags has played matches where he ran Ludicolo / Chansey / Cloyster / Bulky Metagross too. Frags is just one of the many 64 players. I myself ran a bit of stall and offense and I was more likely to win with stall. In my first round, I encountered someone runing bulky arcanine / cloyster / chansey / weezing (thats 4 walls) and a Kingdra. Sadly I do not remember the 5th. Like that the one thing EVERY team has in common is Chansey and that promotes stall heavily since it discourages the use of choicebanders or special attackers. Chansey will continue to pass wish to the counters of choicebanders and act as a pivot for almost any team. Gengar was the one pokemon capable of switching into Chansey and breaking it and it's gone. 

 

2) b ) SD Heracross isn't that viable considering how common Arcanine and Skarmory is. Curse Swampert is the least viable of all seeing as how every team runs a pokemon with a grass type or a grass move. Bulk Up Machamp gets screwed over by Slowbro and wouldn't appreciate the counter from skarmory if it decides to attack. Skarmory learning counter can even beat SD Ursaring if it decides to fire punch leaving you with the prediction of whether you're supposed to SD or attack. What calm minders are you referring to that can take on Chansey? It has to be somewhat viable and toxic nearly wears down all of them. Powerful pursuit users, NEED choiceband in order to hit hard and Chansey can just protect on it and start screwing around with it. Mentioning pursuit itself is a sign of how trapping is still powerful in this meta. 

 

2) c) Seeing as how offensive teams NEED spikes to break down other teams, it just goes to show how powerful stall is, since you need that extra support. You're forgetting the part where stall itself can set up spikes and limits the opponent's team from switching in easily. 

 

3) The Gengar meta may have been sickening, but you cannot call this meta any healthier seeing Chansey be a cancer like how it was in UU. If you want a healthier meta, ban Chansey to Ubers and that will be better. 

1. If the usage didn't change, then the same amount of people are running it in this meta as the gengar meta, and its not worth using as an argument to keep gengar in OU.

 

2a. I just brought up frags because a lot of people do when they're referencing the health of the meta and what actually wins tournaments. Its just not always hardcore stall, its almost never hardcore stall actually. I haven't spectated as much OU as I would have liked, but to be honest, no one has even tried running offense. I think offense is pretty damn viable, considering how shit chansey is at dealing with offense. People are quick to judge and say offense isn't viable when the people in the finals are running defensive teams, but no one has even tried running offense. If I can make it to the tournament today, I'll run offense and see how I do (inb4 I play someone in tc). A few pokemon have a lot of potential in OU but just don't see much usage because people like frags don't run it, and then people who model their play after the better players don't run a pokemon either, even though it has a ton of potential. 

 

2b. Like I said before to you, arcanine doesn't even beat sd heracross. Heracross survives a flamethrower and extreme speed from arcanine.

0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 114-134 (67 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Arcanine ExtremeSpeed vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 42-50 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

(if flamethrower gets max damage roll, and a high roll for extreme speed, then heracross can die, but its unlikely)

and 

+1 252+ Atk Heracross Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Arcanine: 117-138 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

or if you got status'ed vs chansey

+1 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Arcanine: 175-207 (88.8 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

Skarmory does better since it can ohko heracross with drill peck and is only 3hko'ed by choice band low kick. But unfortunately, skarmory is pressured to take on flygon/gyarados/heracross/aerodactyl/swampert/slaking/marowak and can't really handle all of those. If skarmory takes one rock slide from aerodactyl or a thunderpunch from flygon, then it can't switch in vs choice band heracross low kick (2hko'ed). 

 

Curse swampert is still viable imo. Swampert can easily take a hidden power grass from jolteon (54% to 63% damage) and obviously ohko back with eq. It takes a bit more from magneton hidden power grass but still doable (63% to 75%) and obviously ohko back. Ludicolo and venusaur are problems for curse swampert but not huge barriers, as ludicolo is quite prone to status and worn down a lot. Venusaur can be burned/knocked off to wear down easier, but is still an issue. 

 

Bulk up machamp does fairly well vs slowbro.

0 SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 61-73 (33.7 - 40.3%) -- 45.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 116-140 (64 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(not many even run psychic since too much pressure to counter gyarados with hp electric)

+1 252+ Atk Machamp ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

so machamp can win vs slowbro sometimes if slowbro has taken no previous damage, will always win with 1 layer of spikes up, and will always win if it gets toxic'ed by umbreon/porygon/chansey.

 

Calm minders that beat chansey: taunt gardevoir, espeon w/ morning sun, rest slowbro, misdreavus (pretty viable in OU actually), and any pokemon that learns calm mind and rest to be honest. 

 

lmao saying pursuit is unhealthy for the meta. First, not everyone runs wish protect chansey, many go for softboiled/aroma instead since that is generally more useful for a lot of teams. And secondly, not everyone will be willing to protect vs a heracross that just came in, since it could be swords dance or substitute. If chansey takes one pursuit from heracross or metagross, it can't even come in vs magneton safely. Also the pursuit argument goes the same way for gengar, so not really worth using as an argument. 

 

2c. I wouldn't say offense needs spikes. It only needs spikes if you're trying to sweep with a weak special attacker that can't beat venusaur/porygon/chansey. Calm minders/physical attackers don't need spike support really. Stall needs spikes a lot more since you can't even win with a stall team without them really. Spikers are sometimes hard to actually get in since skarmory can't really set up spikes vs an hp fire metagross or choice banded thunderpunch metagross/flygon/machamp. And magneton being on 20% of teams doesn't really help skarmory out either. 

 

3. I don't think banning chansey would do anything. People would just run porygon2/umbreon/clefable more. There will always be a special wall out there. In gen 3, you can't just hope to break down a special wall with shitty special attackers that don't have life orb or choice specs or special fighting moves or nasty plot etc. 

[DoubleJ]

Zebra just countered his own statement. Banning chansey would let people run P2, Clef, and Umbreon. Ban one gain three? I like dis.

[NikhilR]

1. If the usage didn't change, then the same amount of people are running it in this meta as the gengar meta, and its not worth using as an argument to keep gengar in OU.

 

2a. I just brought up frags because a lot of people do when they're referencing the health of the meta and what actually wins tournaments. Its just not always hardcore stall, its almost never hardcore stall actually. I haven't spectated as much OU as I would have liked, but to be honest, no one has even tried running offense. I think offense is pretty damn viable, considering how shit chansey is at dealing with offense. People are quick to judge and say offense isn't viable when the people in the finals are running defensive teams, but no one has even tried running offense. If I can make it to the tournament today, I'll run offense and see how I do (inb4 I play someone in tc). A few pokemon have a lot of potential in OU but just don't see much usage because people like frags don't run it, and then people who model their play after the better players don't run a pokemon either, even though it has a ton of potential. 

 

2b. Like I said before to you, arcanine doesn't even beat sd heracross. Heracross survives a flamethrower and extreme speed from arcanine.

0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 116 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 114-134 (67 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Arcanine ExtremeSpeed vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 42-50 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

(if flamethrower gets max damage roll, and a high roll for extreme speed, then heracross can die, but its unlikely)

and 

+1 252+ Atk Heracross Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Arcanine: 117-138 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

or if you got status'ed vs chansey

+1 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Arcanine: 175-207 (88.8 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

Skarmory does better since it can ohko heracross with drill peck and is only 3hko'ed by choice band low kick. But unfortunately, skarmory is pressured to take on flygon/gyarados/heracross/aerodactyl/swampert/slaking/marowak and can't really handle all of those. If skarmory takes one rock slide from aerodactyl or a thunderpunch from flygon, then it can't switch in vs choice band heracross low kick (2hko'ed). 

 

Curse swampert is still viable imo. Swampert can easily take a hidden power grass from jolteon (54% to 63% damage) and obviously ohko back with eq. It takes a bit more from magneton hidden power grass but still doable (63% to 75%) and obviously ohko back. Ludicolo and venusaur are problems for curse swampert but not huge barriers, as ludicolo is quite prone to status and worn down a lot. Venusaur can be burned/knocked off to wear down easier, but is still an issue. 

 

Bulk up machamp does fairly well vs slowbro.

0 SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 61-73 (33.7 - 40.3%) -- 45.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 116-140 (64 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(not many even run psychic since too much pressure to counter gyarados with hp electric)

+1 252+ Atk Machamp ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

so machamp can win vs slowbro sometimes if slowbro has taken no previous damage, will always win with 1 layer of spikes up, and will always win if it gets toxic'ed by umbreon/porygon/chansey.

 

Calm minders that beat chansey: taunt gardevoir, espeon w/ morning sun, rest slowbro, misdreavus (pretty viable in OU actually), and any pokemon that learns calm mind and rest to be honest. 

 

lmao saying pursuit is unhealthy for the meta. First, not everyone runs wish protect chansey, many go for softboiled/aroma instead since that is generally more useful for a lot of teams. And secondly, not everyone will be willing to protect vs a heracross that just came in, since it could be swords dance or substitute. If chansey takes one pursuit from heracross or metagross, it can't even come in vs magneton safely. Also the pursuit argument goes the same way for gengar, so not really worth using as an argument. 

 

2c. I wouldn't say offense needs spikes. It only needs spikes if you're trying to sweep with a weak special attacker that can't beat venusaur/porygon/chansey. Calm minders/physical attackers don't need spike support really. Stall needs spikes a lot more since you can't even win with a stall team without them really. Spikers are sometimes hard to actually get in since skarmory can't really set up spikes vs an hp fire metagross or choice banded thunderpunch metagross/flygon/machamp. And magneton being on 20% of teams doesn't really help skarmory out either. 

 

3. I don't think banning chansey would do anything. People would just run porygon2/umbreon/clefable more. There will always be a special wall out there. In gen 3, you can't just hope to break down a special wall with shitty special attackers that don't have life orb or choice specs or special fighting moves or nasty plot etc. 

 

2 a) Frags isn't the only one who wins tournaments, Raaidn won the 1st Marathon and he always ran Cloyster+Slowbro+Chansey and at times even Weezing. The point isn't about "stall" or offense being viable, it's about how the absence of Gengar has made Chansey so strong that it shuts down most of offense. I ran a slightly more offensive team and I lost my 2nd round match. Saying no one has considered even running offense is just wrong. I have played AW players in Vermillion who ran Mag+5 Physical attackers and won with stall. The argument being made here mainly, is whether you run balanced or full offense or full stall, Chansey will be at the core of every team. I dunno how you can call Chansey shit offensively when it can 3hko almost every physical attacker out there. It can toxic stall almost any physical attacker by spamming wish / protect. Not everyone models their play after Frags or other good players. They run what they feel best suits their team or against someone else's team and Chansey will always, always find a place there.

 

2 b ) If you call narrowly living from Arcanine due to RNG as not being beaten by it, then that's a slight problem. With a little bit of spikes support, Arcanine can win vs Heracross 1v1. Skarmory is definitely a better answer. Skarmory doesn't have to be pressured to take on aero / flygon / heracross if:

 

i) You can eliminate those threats using counter.

ii) It's health is being recovered through Chansey

 

Curse Swampert is eventually forced to rest at one point, at that point hidden power grass kills it or forces it to switch. So until then people can go to their slowbro and keep attacking it. Again I don't understand how Ludicolo being prone to status should factor in. If you want to prove a point about how Curse Swampert is viable, then run one vs Frags. 

 

The pokemon you're running to beat Chansey, aka Heracross and Machamp nearly die when they face one of their counters or actually do die. When this happens how do you propose to exactly beat Chansey? Run another banded type? Toxic wears down Machamp, so if it bulks up on the turn to Slowbro, psychic will do a lot of dmg and probably even faint it. 

 

This statement of yours:

 

so machamp can win vs slowbro sometimes if slowbro has taken no previous damage, will always win with 1 layer of spikes up, and will always win if it gets toxic'ed by umbreon/porygon/chansey.

 

Do you see how conditional it is? Again Umbreon+P2 aren't the issue here. Chansey surrounded with a proper def core is. 

 

Taunt Gardevoir eventually gets killed with seismic or should I say suffers from 4MSS which forces it to use wish or painsplit. While this can beat Chansey, it's useless vs Metagross and hence the only purpose of beating Chansey or P2. Espeon can get toxic'd and I'm not sure if you're shitting me with Rest Slowbro because it was only viable in one instance and that was with block. If Slowbro runs rest then any physical attacker will have a field day with it. None of the options you've provided are actually viable. And fyi, Rest-Block Slowbro is something that Bowser came up with, not Frags.

 

I'm not saying Pursuit is unhealthy, but it's a form of trapping that is prevalent in our current meta which is a counter to you saying trapping hasn't changed much. So please read carefully. Most people do run seismic / wish / protect Chansey Zebra. VERY, VERY few run without it, but again the question here is regarding Wish / Protect Chanseys. And the first turn Chansey comes vs a Heracross, it goes into Arcanine or Skarmory to predict the damage done. Based on the damage done you can know whether it was banded or not. This is something that most players do. Substitute means you suffer from coverage and again that's 25% of your health gone. 

 

2 c) If your banded pokemon are locked into tpunch or magneton, they cannot beat Chansey. So when they're locked into a move that CAN beat Chansey, that's where Skarmory comes in and it can set up spikes. Again counter eliminates flygon and that way it can recover health. 

 

3) If you think Umbreon or P2 or Clefable can offer the same support that Chansey does, then you're way, way, way wrong. It's true there will always be a special wall out there but the question is about how good it is at walling and Chansey's abilities along with NC far exceed that of P2 or Clefable or Umbreon. 

Edited September 27, 2015 by NikhilR

[gbwead]

The undesirable tactics (stalling/trapping) have one common denominator: Chansey. If this thing wasn't used so much, the current metagame would be healthier than the Gengar metagame. I feel a Chansey + Gengar test ban would be the good for OU.

 

Chansey ban means that:

 

1. Dugtrio is not needed for trapping Chansey.
2. Magneton is not the only reliable option to deal with Skarmory.
3. Dugtrio/Porygon/Gardevoir/Magneton do not have to revenge kill Magneton after the Skarmory kill.
4. There will be usually less switchs so spikes damage would not be as important as it is now.
5. Offense is overall more viable.

Gonna read the Nik post now XD

Edited September 27, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

The undesirable tactics (stalling/trapping) have one common denominator: Chansey. If this thing wasn't used so much, the current metagame would be healthier than the Gengar metagame. I feel a Chansey + Gengar test ban would be the good for OU.

 

Chansey ban means that:

 

1. Dugtrio is not needed for trapping Chansey.
2. Magneton is not the only reliable option to deal with Skarmory.
3. Dugtrio/Porygon/Gardevoir/Magneton do not have to revenge kill Magneton after the Skarmory kill.
4. There will be usually less switchs so spikes damage would not be as important as it is now.
5. Offense is overall more viable.

Gonna read the Nik post now XD

Chansey ban means that kingdra/ludicolo sweep through the tier. Magneton is an unstoppable special attacker (already kinda is, beats chansey most of the time). Toxic stall reaches new highs with only starmie that is NC and no good cleric users really (umbreon is total poo outside of being able to 4hko gengar). People will still run dugtrio to take out metagross/heracross/magneton/ursaring/arcanine/anything that isn't flying. Don't really see how there would be significantly less switches. Offense is viable as is.

 

will reply to niks post eventually, but won't reply to each thing since it mostly falls under a point or two. 

[NikhilR]

Chansey ban means that kingdra/ludicolo sweep through the tier. Magneton is an unstoppable special attacker (already kinda is, beats chansey most of the time). Toxic stall reaches new highs with only starmie that is NC and no good cleric users really (umbreon is total poo outside of being able to 4hko gengar). People will still run dugtrio to take out metagross/heracross/magneton/ursaring/arcanine/anything that isn't flying. Don't really see how there would be significantly less switches. Offense is viable as is.

 

will reply to niks post eventually, but won't reply to each thing since it mostly falls under a point or two. 

 

1) Kingdra can be walled by Slowbro if it is DD or other special walls like Gardevoir with wish / protect.

 

2) Venusaur shits all over Ludicolo. Magneton suffers from coverage so depending on grass / ice / fire, flygon or swampert or Venusaur can take advantage of it.

 

3) Toxic can be healed through Heal Bell which can be done by Umbreon or Vaporeon or Gardevoir. 

 

4) People nowadays take out dugtrio to take out Chansey mainly. Being able to take out Metagross / Heracross are advantages. Also Aerodactyl pursuit limits the no. of kills Dugtrio can obtain assuming one runs Hera / Meta / Arca all in the same team. .

Edited September 27, 2015 by NikhilR

[gbwead]

Chansey ban means that kingdra/ludicolo sweep through the tier. Magneton is an unstoppable special attacker (already kinda is, beats chansey most of the time). Toxic stall reaches new highs with only starmie that is NC and no good cleric users really (umbreon is total poo outside of being able to 4hko gengar). People will still run dugtrio to take out metagross/heracross/magneton/ursaring/arcanine/anything that isn't flying. Don't really see how there would be significantly less switches. Offense is viable as is.

 

Ludicolo rain dish counters Kingdra/Ludicolo with ease. Porygon HP ground destroys Magneton.

 

Jolteon and Vaporeon are decent clerics too. Gardevoir has potential.

I personnally use Miltank and Jumpluff (gimmick powa) as clerics.

People still have options to deal with toxic stall. Offensive teams will always have the guts users anyways.

[BurntZebra]

Zebra just countered his own statement. Banning chansey would let people run P2, Clef, and Umbreon. Ban one gain three? I like dis.

People already run porygon2 and umbreon, so not much diversity would be added. Only clefable would be replacing chansey, so three special walls regardless. 

 

 

2 a) Frags isn't the only one who wins tournaments, Raaidn won the 1st Marathon and he always ran Cloyster+Slowbro+Chansey and at times even Weezing. The point isn't about "stall" or offense being viable, it's about how the absence of Gengar has made Chansey so strong that it shuts down most of offense. I ran a slightly more offensive team and I lost my 2nd round match. Saying no one has considered even running offense is just wrong. I have played AW players in Vermillion who ran Mag+5 Physical attackers and won with stall. The argument being made here mainly, is whether you run balanced or full offense or full stall, Chansey will be at the core of every team. I dunno how you can call Chansey shit offensively when it can 3hko almost every physical attacker out there. It can toxic stall almost any physical attacker by spamming wish / protect. Not everyone models their play after Frags or other good players. They run what they feel best suits their team or against someone else's team and Chansey will always, always find a place there.

 

2 b ) If you call narrowly living from Arcanine due to RNG as not being beaten by it, then that's a slight problem. With a little bit of spikes support, Arcanine can win vs Heracross 1v1. Skarmory is definitely a better answer. Skarmory doesn't have to be pressured to take on aero / flygon / heracross if:

 

i) You can eliminate those threats using counter.

ii) It's health is being recovered through Chansey

 

Curse Swampert is eventually forced to rest at one point, at that point hidden power grass kills it or forces it to switch. So until then people can go to their slowbro and keep attacking it. Again I don't understand how Ludicolo being prone to status should factor in. If you want to prove a point about how Curse Swampert is viable, then run one vs Frags. 

 

The pokemon you're running to beat Chansey, aka Heracross and Machamp nearly die when they face one of their counters or actually do die. When this happens how do you propose to exactly beat Chansey? Run another banded type? Toxic wears down Machamp, so if it bulks up on the turn to Slowbro, psychic will do a lot of dmg and probably even faint it. 

 

This statement of yours:

 

so machamp can win vs slowbro sometimes if slowbro has taken no previous damage, will always win with 1 layer of spikes up, and will always win if it gets toxic'ed by umbreon/porygon/chansey.

 

Do you see how conditional it is? Again Umbreon+P2 aren't the issue here. Chansey surrounded with a proper def core is. 

 

Taunt Gardevoir eventually gets killed with seismic or should I say suffers from 4MSS which forces it to use wish or painsplit. While this can beat Chansey, it's useless vs Metagross and hence the only purpose of beating Chansey or P2. Espeon can get toxic'd and I'm not sure if you're shitting me with Rest Slowbro because it was only viable in one instance and that was with block. If Slowbro runs rest then any physical attacker will have a field day with it. None of the options you've provided are actually viable. And fyi, Rest-Block Slowbro is something that Bowser came up with, not Frags.

 

I'm not saying Pursuit is unhealthy, but it's a form of trapping that is prevalent in our current meta which is a counter to you saying trapping hasn't changed much. So please read carefully. Most people do run seismic / wish / protect Chansey Zebra. VERY, VERY few run without it, but again the question here is regarding Wish / Protect Chanseys. And the first turn Chansey comes vs a Heracross, it goes into Arcanine or Skarmory to predict the damage done. Based on the damage done you can know whether it was banded or not. This is something that most players do. Substitute means you suffer from coverage and again that's 25% of your health gone. 

 

2 c) If your banded pokemon are locked into tpunch or magneton, they cannot beat Chansey. So when they're locked into a move that CAN beat Chansey, that's where Skarmory comes in and it can set up spikes. Again counter eliminates flygon and that way it can recover health. 

 

3) If you think Umbreon or P2 or Clefable can offer the same support that Chansey does, then you're way, way, way wrong. It's true there will always be a special wall out there but the question is about how good it is at walling and Chansey's abilities along with NC far exceed that of P2 or Clefable or Umbreon. 

 

I feel like you're not really understanding my posts. I just used frags as an example because multiple people did on other discussion threads. It doesn't matter who the person is, you're focusing too much on minute details. I just don't understand what offensive team you're running that gives chansey free switch ins. Either a) you're running physical offense and chansey gets 0 switch ins or b ) you're running special offense with dugtrio/wynaut support since SPECIAL ATTACKERS ARE BAD IN GEN 3, THEY WILL NEVER BE BALANCED WITHOUT LATER GENS IMPROVEMENTS. With a little bit of spikes support, heracross beats arcanine without taking a flamethrower, so don't really understand why you're trying to make an argument that can be made back towards yours. Again assuming chansey can come in, take spikes damage/whatever its coming in vs, manage to wish, then wish pass to another pokemon, and have that pokemon survive. That is a lot to assume. Chansey has worse special defense/defense than blissey and usually has to wish+protect itself if it comes in vs a special attacker like jolteon/magneton or any special attacker if there are spikes down. 

 

Again, I have no idea what kind of offensive team you're running. Why are you trying to say that chansey is OP if ONE WALLBREAKER can't break through 2 of its counters. Obviously an offensive team should have several wallbreakers since its a fucking offensive team. 

 

I don't really feel I need to address some of the arguments made since they're random stuff that doesn't matter like viability/gimmickness of pokemon sets. If there's a dominant pokemon, then obviously someone is going to run something specifically for it. People run hp electric on slowbro/vaporeon for gyarados. People run magneton for skarmory/forretress. Just like people run a morning sun espeon to take out chansey (which it does, assuming chansey toxics espeon, then gets synchronized and wrecked by a +2 psychic while toxic'ed). 

 

Umbreon provides the same support as chansey, although its more passive than chansey, who is already pretty passive. Porygon is better than chansey in some ways since it has actual offense and can beat stuff like gyarados in addition to beating jolteon well. Clefable is pretty meh but I bet a few people would run it if chansey was banned for that wish+aroma combo. 

[DoubleJ]

Tentacruel is an incredible anti-rain option if they become a problem.