[OU Discussion] Gengar [Voted 6-1 in favor of banning]

[NikhilR]

I feel like you're not really understanding my posts. I just used frags as an example because multiple people did on other discussion threads. It doesn't matter who the person is, you're focusing too much on minute details. I just don't understand what offensive team you're running that gives chansey free switch ins. Either a) you're running physical offense and chansey gets 0 switch ins or b ) you're running special offense with dugtrio/wynaut support since SPECIAL ATTACKERS ARE BAD IN GEN 3, THEY WILL NEVER BE BALANCED WITHOUT LATER GENS IMPROVEMENTS. With a little bit of spikes support, heracross beats arcanine without taking a flamethrower, so don't really understand why you're trying to make an argument that can be made back towards yours. Again assuming chansey can come in, take spikes damage/whatever its coming in vs, manage to wish, then wish pass to another pokemon, and have that pokemon survive. That is a lot to assume. Chansey has worse special defense/defense than blissey and usually has to wish+protect itself if it comes in vs a special attacker like jolteon/magneton or any special attacker if there are spikes down. 

 

Again, I have no idea what kind of offensive team you're running. Why are you trying to say that chansey is OP if ONE WALLBREAKER can't break through 2 of its counters. Obviously an offensive team should have several wallbreakers since its a fucking offensive team. 

 

I don't really feel I need to address some of the arguments made since they're random stuff that doesn't matter like viability/gimmickness of pokemon sets. If there's a dominant pokemon, then obviously someone is going to run something specifically for it. People run hp electric on slowbro/vaporeon for gyarados. People run magneton for skarmory/forretress. Just like people run a morning sun espeon to take out chansey (which it does, assuming chansey toxics espeon, then gets synchronized and wrecked by a +2 psychic while toxic'ed). 

 

Umbreon provides the same support as chansey, although its more passive than chansey, who is already pretty passive. Porygon is better than chansey in some ways since it has actual offense and can beat stuff like gyarados in addition to beating jolteon well. Clefable is pretty meh but I bet a few people would run it if chansey was banned for that wish+aroma combo. 

 

I didn't mean running an offensive team but when I replaced my stall team with slightly more offense, I had bigger problems with Chansey. Special attackers aren't as bad in gen3 as you're making them out to be. With Chansey around, they will be bad. But with things like Clefable / Umbreon they would be be able to shine more. 

 

A pure offensive team doesn't use spikes, hence the reason why I'm neglecting a scenario where Arcanine switches into spikes. If you want a fully offensive team to pull through a proper stall team, it needs some spikes support. The reason I'm saying Chansey is OP, is because while 2 of its counters prevent something from breaking through it, it is mainly because Chansey PREVENTS the counters' counters from being used. If you take Chansey out of the equation, most of these things wouldn't get much support and everything can eventually be broken. 

 

Chansey can switch in easily vs any spaker and start wish seismic tossing, so it's not like running jolteon / magneton would break it. 

 

This statement of yours:

 

People run hp electric on slowbro/vaporeon for gyarados. People run magneton for skarmory/forretress. Just like people run a morning sun espeon to take out chansey (which it does, assuming chansey toxics espeon, then gets synchronized and wrecked by a +2 psychic while toxic'ed)

 

The comparison here is so, so flawed:

 

Firstly, Slowbro doesn't always run HP Electric for Gyara, people run things like p2 at times to beat Gyara. People do run hp electric vapo for gyara and magneton for Skarm / Fort. But people running Morning Sun espeon to take out Chansey? Really Zebra, that's why people run Morning Espeon for, to take out Chansey? And the other way round, to take out Chansey, people use morning sun espeon?If Chansey gets toxic'd, then it keeps seismic tossing until Espeon is forced to morning and at that point it can switch out and then switch back in because Chansey has NC. Then it can continue to wish protect until toxic does its job of killing Espeon. 

 

If you really think Umbreon / P2 are nearly as good as Chansey, then have a look at the usage stats and tell me why there's a big difference. Things like P2 can be broken down easily. Umbreon's only form of offense is pursuit which doesn't break much subs and hence almost any pokemon can get a free switch in. Chansey's seismic 3hkos almost every physical attacker which limits the no. of switch ins a physical attacker can get in. 

 

If Blissey / Lax are banned due to unhealthiness, then so should Chansey. 

Edited September 27, 2015 by NikhilR

[Robofiend]

Well, we could just ban Chansey too. I'm actually almost more in favor of that than just bringing Gengar back. Also rolf at "get rekt by +2 psychic"

 

+2 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 148-175 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'll take my 98% to live the 2HKO and let Toxic/ST/whatever wear you down.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Robofiend

[BurntZebra]

 

Well, we could just ban Chansey too. I'm actually almost more in favor of that than just bringing Gengar back. Also rolf at "get rekt by +2 psychic"

 

+2 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 148-175 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'll take my 98% to live the 2HKO and let Toxic/ST/whatever wear you down.

 

well assuming chansey comes in vs a calm mind, then toxics the espeon, gets synchronized, then has to take a +2 psychic while toxic'ed to actually get the espeon toxic'ed since lum berry, its gonna be pretty hard for chansey to survive

 

+2 252+ SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and toxic damage

 

 

edit:

 

 

If you really think Umbreon / P2 are nearly as good as Chansey, then have a look at the usage stats and tell me why there's a big difference. Things like P2 can be broken down easily. Umbreon's only form of offense is pursuit which doesn't break much subs and hence almost any pokemon can get a free switch in. Chansey's seismic 3hkos almost every physical attacker which limits the no. of switch ins a physical attacker can get in. 

 

If Blissey / Lax are banned due to unhealthiness, then so should Chansey. 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2015 by BurntZebra

[NikhilR]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets wait for the marathon results Zeb. 64 man would give us a larger picture. 

[DoubleJ]

Lets wait for the marathon results Zeb. 64 man would give us a larger picture. 

 

Watching the Marathon I've seen a whole lot of Magnetons and a whole lot of Chanseys. I'm really excited to see these usage stats. 

[Robofiend]

My god, Chansey on every team

 

The banhammer is calling

[DoubleJ]

I'm on my phone so I can't offer much detail, but as a general statement I would approve of a plan to ban Gengar with a quick ban of Chansey alongside it. That would allow special sweepers to have an opportunity to lessen the impact of the great def walls we have that are choking up the tier.

[Robofiend]

Zebra, Orange, etc...

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Gengarless meta, the prospects of banning Chansey, etc. I think there's fairly wide support for keeping Gengar banned, but I'd like to get some kind of consensus going.

[BurntZebra]

I'm still in favor of keeping gengar banned. Gengar just put a ton of pressure on team building and was pretty bad for the meta and eliminated any chance of it developing. 

 

I'm not really sure about banning chansey. I mean it seems like an option, but there will still be other special walls that make special attackers not viable. Porygon2 will still shut down tons of special attackers. Kangaskhan or umbreon can still wish pass (ok maybe kangaskhan is a stretch but w/e) and wall the special attackers still. I don't really think natural cure is banworthy, assuming that chansey is pretty much on par with porygon2 with what it can wall/do in return. If chansey is banned, jolteon/starmie/other special attackers won't be that viable still, and the special wall diversity is already here for the most part, with people running special wall porygon2/chansey/arcanine/venusaur/ludicolo/umbreon. 

[NikhilR]

I'm in favour of banning Gengar and quick banning Chansey.

 

Unlike other special walls, Chansey offers more support, has NC, can scout banded attacks which makes it unbreakable not just specially, but also physically. That part is what makes Chansey much better than any other special wall because no other special wall shuts down physical attackers as well as it does. Moreover special attackers lack certain traits that Chansey has.

 

Porygon2 - Assuming it runs bolt / beam and toxic, then it gets heavily walled by Magneton, and bulky Metagrosses can find the easiest time to switch in on it. If it runs hp fire over toxic, then it could at one point be set up bait for Slowbro and then its gg. It's affected by status and can't scout CB attacks. Things like Jolt / Gyara would be less viable but other special attackers could attack it forcing porygon2 to recover that very turn. 

 

Umbreon - Has 0 offensive presence and only makes starmie quite unviable and things like magneton, metagross, heracross, ursaring etc. would love switching in on it. 

 

Kangaskhan - You can run wish/protect or rest. With rest it offers no support to its teammates but has the upside of not being statused heavily. Although, the rest is predictable and can force a physical threat in. Moreover things like skarmory / fort / aero can always switch in with ease and the first 2 can start setting up spikes.

Edited September 29, 2015 by NikhilR

[DoubleJ]

I'm still in favor of keeping gengar banned. Gengar just put a ton of pressure on team building and was pretty bad for the meta and eliminated any chance of it developing. 

 

I'm not really sure about banning chansey. I mean it seems like an option, but there will still be other special walls that make special attackers not viable. Porygon2 will still shut down tons of special attackers. Kangaskhan or umbreon can still wish pass (ok maybe kangaskhan is a stretch but w/e) and wall the special attackers still. I don't really think natural cure is banworthy, assuming that chansey is pretty much on par with porygon2 with what it can wall/do in return. If chansey is banned, jolteon/starmie/other special attackers won't be that viable still, and the special wall diversity is already here for the most part, with people running special wall porygon2/chansey/arcanine/venusaur/ludicolo/umbreon. 

 

I'm in favour of banning Gengar and quick banning Chansey.

 

Unlike other special walls, Chansey offers more support, has NC, can scout banded attacks which makes it unbreakable not just specially, but also physically. That part is what makes Chansey much better than any other special wall because no other special wall shuts down physical attackers as well as it does. Moreover special attackers lack certain traits that Chansey has.

 

Porygon2 - Assuming it runs bolt / beam and toxic, then it gets heavily walled by Magneton, and bulky Metagrosses can find the easiest time to switch in on it. If it runs hp fire over toxic, then it could at one point be set up bait for Slowbro and then its gg. It's affected by status and can't scout CB attacks. Things like Jolt / Gyara would be less viable but other special attackers could attack it forcing porygon2 to recover that very turn. 

 

Umbreon - Has 0 offensive presence and only makes starmie quite unviable and things like magneton, metagross, heracross, ursaring etc. would love switching in on it. 

 

Kangaskhan - You can run wish/protect or rest. With rest it offers no support to its teammates but has the upside of not being statused heavily. Although, the rest is predictable and can force a physical threat in. Moreover things like skarmory / fort / aero can always switch in with ease and the first 2 can start setting up spikes.

 

I completely agree with Nik on this matter and I have a difficult time seeing Chansey being comparable to Porygon2 or Umbreon, both of which are incredible special walls in their own right. 

 

The difference between these threats is that Chansey can shut down Calm Mind users, making a whole group of special attackers entirely non-viable, let alone less viable. Take for instance the following calc:

 

+6 252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 214-253 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

A fully invested Espeon at +6 cannot OHKO a Chansey at +6 Special Attack. With Seismic Toss the Espeon is having to heal while trying to establish 6 CM's and it also has to avoid Toxic, which is something that severely limits other Calm Mind users like Slowbro which happen to be slower than Chansey and typically don't try to protect themselves with a Substitute. 

 

+6 0 SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey: 150-177 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

This is a really disturbing calc. Chansey is able to entirely wall Slowbro, which has zero chances of beating it aside from a few lucky Special Defense drops from Psychic. Slowbro is effectively stalled and beaten by Toxic. This in my opinion doesn't reward skill whatsoever. You allowed your opponent to reach +6 CM's, but have a fail safe measure to completely wall it off no matter what. 

 

Umbreon and Porygon2 on the other hand still provide the defensive measures necessary to stop special threats from becoming broken, but they are also susceptible to special attacks as well. 

 

+6 0 SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 160-189 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+6 0 SpA Slowbro Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 129-153 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

To add, neither Umbreon or Porygon2 have access to Natural Cure like Chansey. This ability alone prevents Chansey from being Toxic stalled unless it's been trapped (pray it's not a Cleric). 

 

So in summary, in my eyes Chansey is simply broken. It hard walls every special attacker in the game and can be considered an uber defense just on that alone. In addition, Chansey has access to Natural Cure and instant-recovery to prevent special attackers from beating it in almost any scenario. Beyond its defensive characteristics, Chansey can also bait Choice Banders with Protect and also support its team immensely through Heal Bell/Aromatherapy and Wish. 

 

Chansey is both uber defensive and also uncompetitive by the support characteristic. If we ban the one special attacker that can beat Chansey (Gengar), we need to consider a quick ban on this behemoth to avoid a Chansey dominated meta. 

[Artemiseta]

I'm just gonna add chansey is 1 version less of blissey and the exact same criteria for banning bliss still applies to chansey as well. I agree with what Nik and JJ have posted and there is little to add to that.
Side effect could be that calm minders like espy could become overpowered way too much

[BurntZebra]

First, no one runs 4/252+ chansey. It has no physical bulk which throws out your other argument.  Secondly, protect to scout for choice banders is NOT a reason to ban something. IE the umbreon ban in UU that was ridiculous and did not follow tiering protocol. Everything learns protect and toxic, so its a pretty meh argument. I'd also argue that porygon and umbreon stop calm minders much better than chansey. Why do they need to take a +6 psychic/coverage move if they 2hko the espeon.

 

0 Atk Porygon2 Return vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 73-87 (50.3 - 60%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Umbreon Faint Attack vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 74-90 (51 - 62%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Also some quite bold claims saying that all special attackers are not viable. Magneton easily shreds through chansey with metal sound and that stab thunderbolt. Jolteon can beat chansey with either growth or fake tears. Chansey is also bait for misdreavus/haunter. Misdreavus is quite underrated, as it is a pretty big threat in uu and ou with its sub cm set and has some nice immunities/resists. People are definitely still running special attackers, look at the usage. 

 

I don't really agree that chansey is uber defense, as it doesn't really wall a significant portion of the meta. In fact, it gets 2hko'ed by most of the meta, and ohko'ed by choice banders and even some non choice band pokemon. 

 

I'm not really convinced chansey is unhealthy, at least at this moment. I mean its not even the most used pokemon, and its only the most used special wall by a few percent usage. 

 

Banning chansey would result in porygon2 increasing in usage and probably the other special walls I mentioned before. Special attackers would not become more viable (except magneton really) as they are still stopped pretty hard by the special walls still. Jolteon is stopped even harder by porygon2 than chansey. Same with a lot of calm minders vs porygon2/umbreon. 

[NikhilR]

First, no one runs 4/252+ chansey. It has no physical bulk which throws out your other argument.  Secondly, protect to scout for choice banders is NOT a reason to ban something. IE the umbreon ban in UU that was ridiculous and did not follow tiering protocol. Everything learns protect and toxic, so its a pretty meh argument. I'd also argue that porygon and umbreon stop calm minders much better than chansey. Why do they need to take a +6 psychic/coverage move if they 2hko the espeon.

 

0 Atk Porygon2 Return vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 73-87 (50.3 - 60%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Umbreon Faint Attack vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 74-90 (51 - 62%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Also some quite bold claims saying that all special attackers are not viable. Magneton easily shreds through chansey with metal sound and that stab thunderbolt. Jolteon can beat chansey with either growth or fake tears. Chansey is also bait for misdreavus/haunter. Misdreavus is quite underrated, as it is a pretty big threat in uu and ou with its sub cm set and has some nice immunities/resists. People are definitely still running special attackers, look at the usage. 

 

I don't really agree that chansey is uber defense, as it doesn't really wall a significant portion of the meta. In fact, it gets 2hko'ed by most of the meta, and ohko'ed by choice banders and even some non choice band pokemon. 

 

I'm not really convinced chansey is unhealthy, at least at this moment. I mean its not even the most used pokemon, and its only the most used special wall by a few percent usage. 

 

Banning chansey would result in porygon2 increasing in usage and probably the other special walls I mentioned before. Special attackers would not become more viable (except magneton really) as they are still stopped pretty hard by the special walls still. Jolteon is stopped even harder by porygon2 than chansey. Same with a lot of calm minders vs porygon2/umbreon. 

 

I think we've gone over this, when you run protect on a pokemon, you usually give up something highly valuable for it. Running protect on P2 leaves it with massive problems due to poor coverage. Running Protect along with Wish has always been standard. Just because every pokemon can learn protect doesn't mean that they can abuse protect as well as Chansey can. 

 

If P2 runs return, then it HAS to give up on either of thunderbolt / icebeam / toxic / hp fire which leave it with massive holes like gyara / flygon or venu / slowbro / magneton, respectively. So for every possible set of P2, there are specific counters or pokemon to abuse it, while this doesn't happen for Chansey.

 

I haven't seen a Magneton tear Chansey through shreds easily. Firstly Seismic is a 3hko. Chansey can attack when Magneton metal sounds first turn. then seismic toss again to live a tbolt at -2, then it can switch out to a ground type to take the hit and come back again to finish off Magneton. Moreover even though we can't take this into consideration, we can't neglect that metal sound has a chance of missing which means that if magneton misses metal sound, it's definitely dead 1v1. 

 

With toxic, Jolteon can't beat Chansey whether it is fake tears or growth. All growth does is boost sp attk by +1, while moves like fake tears and metal sound are not that useful seeing as how the opponent can switch out. If Jolteon or Magneton could boost their own attack by +2, then I'd agree with keeping Chansey in. 

 

Misdreavus is nice for setting up but it's highly vulnerable to pursuit trapping which is common in our meta with Aero+Meta+Hera being more viable right now, thus making running Misdreavus useless and exclusively just for Chansey. Same thing applies to Haunter. People do run special attackers but if they're running it with support, then running them puts them at a better position. Moreover running Misdreavus is quite risky because you can never switch it in on a toxic because once you do, it's over. Misdreavus is also extremely hard to set up because once it goes to Chansey, the misd either calm minds or subs. At this point the opponent can go to Arcanine to crunch it or any of the mentioned pursuit trappers. 

 

Jolteon is probably one of the only special pokemon that is stopped hardcore by P2. There do exist special walls out there and they will rise in usage but the difference is that most of them can be broken. Jolteon / Magneton can maintain a sub vs Umbreon and growth/fake tears as you mentioned, something which can't happen vs Chansey (breaking the sub). Psychic types like Gardevoir, Alakazam have access to signal beam which allow it to break through Umbreon, so I disagree with the statement that banning Chansey would still make special attackers less viable. 

[DoubleJ]

 

Also some quite bold claims saying that all special attackers are not viable. Magneton easily shreds through chansey with metal sound and that stab thunderbolt. Jolteon can beat chansey with either growth or fake tears. Chansey is also bait for misdreavus/haunter. Misdreavus is quite underrated, as it is a pretty big threat in uu and ou with its sub cm set and has some nice immunities/resists. People are definitely still running special attackers, look at the usage. 

 

I don't really agree that chansey is uber defense, as it doesn't really wall a significant portion of the meta. In fact, it gets 2hko'ed by most of the meta, and ohko'ed by choice banders and even some non choice band pokemon. 

 

I'm not really convinced chansey is unhealthy, at least at this moment. I mean its not even the most used pokemon, and its only the most used special wall by a few percent usage. 

 

Banning chansey would result in porygon2 increasing in usage and probably the other special walls I mentioned before. Special attackers would not become more viable (except magneton really) as they are still stopped pretty hard by the special walls still. Jolteon is stopped even harder by porygon2 than chansey. Same with a lot of calm minders vs porygon2/umbreon. 

 

In defense of myself, I only said that Chansey made CM Special Attackers "non-viable". It counters other special attackers, but as you pointed out there are opportunities for it to be beat. Magneton is definitely underrated and can beat Chansey, unfortunately it lacks recovery and really doesn't like switching in on spikes and taking repeat Seismic Toss's. Jolteon can do the job, but it is walled hard by Porygon2 and Gardevoir, so its usage is really slim. 

 

Chansey is an exact replica of Blissey with only less offensive pressure. It has very little risk to use and it pays off dividends in multiple ways. And in my opinion it is still Uber Defensive. 

[Robofiend]

I don't really agree that chansey is uber defense, as it doesn't really wall a significant portion of the meta. In fact, it gets 2hko'ed by most of the meta, and ohko'ed by choice banders and even some non choice band pokemon. 

 

Alright, lets look at the top 10 of usage to see exactly how wrong you are, because as it turns out, you're really fucking wrong. I'm going to write "X" if Chansey "walls" something and "+" if the pokemon can 2HKO it.

 

Metagross +

Arcanine X

Weezing X

Flygon + 

Chansey X

Porygon2 X

Ludicolo X

Magneton X (no one just keeps Chansey in after it uses Metal Sound)

Venusaur X

Aerodactyl X - RS is 3HKO

Starmie X

Slowbro X

Skarmory X

Gyarados X

Swampert + (assuming CB)

Dugtrio +

Cloyster X

Jolteon X

Forretress X 

Heracross + 

Dusclops X

Gardevoir X

Vaporeon X

Ursaring +

 

So in reality the correct statement is that "Chansey walls most pokemon who are on more than 10% of teams". 18/24 pokemon have X's here, that's 75%. So no, most of the metagame does not fucking 2HKO Chansey, please make some other point.

 

Thus we say that Chansey does have good defense against most of the metagame, along with great support to keep its wall teammates healthy in the face of setup attackers like Ursaring or Heracross. Saying that it's Uber offense could be a stretch, but its support capabilities are pretty unreal. It singlehandedly stops the other instant heal pokemon (Arc, Slowbro, Porygon, Ludi) from dying to Toxic and has great special defense.

 

More than Chansey's defensive effectiveness though, or the fact that it runs Protect (you're srs straw manning here, no one is suggesting we ban anything because it learns Protect), Chansey is just too good not to use. It fits on any team because it's a 100% perfect counter to Toxic stall, which brings down every other wall in the game. There's no downside when the top specially defensive pokemon (and important attackers like Slowbro, Porygon2 and Ludicolo) can get wall-stalled by Toxic and die. Chansey basically outclasses any special wall since it can provide reliable damage with Seismic Toss while also preventing counter-walling with Toxic. Just by having Chansey on your team you're immediately immune to Toxic, thus supercharging all of your physical/mixed walls for free.

 

TL;DR - there's a reasonably argument for Chansey being Uber Defense, but an even more reasonable one for it being unhealthy, centralizing, and "too good not to use" enough that we shouldn't keep it around.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Robofiend

[BurntZebra]

 

I think we've gone over this, when you run protect on a pokemon, you usually give up something highly valuable for it. Running protect on P2 leaves it with massive problems due to poor coverage. Running Protect along with Wish has always been standard. Just because every pokemon can learn protect doesn't mean that they can abuse protect as well as Chansey can. 

 

If P2 runs return, then it HAS to give up on either of thunderbolt / icebeam / toxic / hp fire which leave it with massive holes like gyara / flygon or venu / slowbro / magneton, respectively. So for every possible set of P2, there are specific counters or pokemon to abuse it, while this doesn't happen for Chansey.

 

I haven't seen a Magneton tear Chansey through shreds easily. Firstly Seismic is a 3hko. Chansey can attack when Magneton metal sounds first turn. then seismic toss again to live a tbolt at -2, then it can switch out to a ground type to take the hit and come back again to finish off Magneton. Moreover even though we can't take this into consideration, we can't neglect that metal sound has a chance of missing which means that if magneton misses metal sound, it's definitely dead 1v1. 

 

With toxic, Jolteon can't beat Chansey whether it is fake tears or growth. All growth does is boost sp attk by +1, while moves like fake tears and metal sound are not that useful seeing as how the opponent can switch out. If Jolteon or Magneton could boost their own attack by +2, then I'd agree with keeping Chansey in. 

 

Misdreavus is nice for setting up but it's highly vulnerable to pursuit trapping which is common in our meta with Aero+Meta+Hera being more viable right now, thus making running Misdreavus useless and exclusively just for Chansey. Same thing applies to Haunter. People do run special attackers but if they're running it with support, then running them puts them at a better position. Moreover running Misdreavus is quite risky because you can never switch it in on a toxic because once you do, it's over. Misdreavus is also extremely hard to set up because once it goes to Chansey, the misd either calm minds or subs. At this point the opponent can go to Arcanine to crunch it or any of the mentioned pursuit trappers. 

 

Jolteon is probably one of the only special pokemon that is stopped hardcore by P2. There do exist special walls out there and they will rise in usage but the difference is that most of them can be broken. Jolteon / Magneton can maintain a sub vs Umbreon and growth/fake tears as you mentioned, something which can't happen vs Chansey (breaking the sub). Psychic types like Gardevoir, Alakazam have access to signal beam which allow it to break through Umbreon, so I disagree with the statement that banning Chansey would still make special attackers less viable. 

Well the thing with the coverage is that even if you drop a coverage move, chances are return will hit the pokemon harder than chanseys seismic toss. A flygon or specially defensive venusaur don't exactly like taking a stab return, both doing more than a seismic toss. Seismic toss is also a 4hko on magneton, assuming you run 76 hp evs at least, which is not a lot to be honest. If you're assuming people are going to switch out chansey when it goes to -sp def, you have to assume that they have something that can take a thunderbolt or hp grass/ice. Not a whole lot of pokemon can take both of those, especially when you're already running chansey as a special wall. If you can knock out a flygon while chansey switches out, then jolteon is still being a viable pokemon, even if it is then walled by chansey. 

 

I still think misdreavus has a ton of potential, considering the perish trap set can pretty much trap any pokemon without fail, but also fearing the calm mind set where you have to worry about thunderbolt/shadow ball/hp fire/fighting/psychic coverage moves. Aerodactyl most likely won't risk switching in vs a misdreavus when it can easily stay in, tank a hit, then ohko with a +1 thunderbolt, or metagross where it is outsped and is 3hko'ed by +1 shadow ball, and can't ohko with meteor mash or pursuit. 

In defense of myself, I only said that Chansey made CM Special Attackers "non-viable". It counters other special attackers, but as you pointed out there are opportunities for it to be beat. Magneton is definitely underrated and can beat Chansey, unfortunately it lacks recovery and really doesn't like switching in on spikes and taking repeat Seismic Toss's. Jolteon can do the job, but it is walled hard by Porygon2 and Gardevoir, so its usage is really slim. 

 

Chansey is an exact replica of Blissey with only less offensive pressure. It has very little risk to use and it pays off dividends in multiple ways. And in my opinion it is still Uber Defensive. 

I'd say it depends on the cm special attacker. If its a special attacker that has some sort of recovery, then it does quite well vs chansey. Especially if its a pokemon with synchronize, since chansey loses most match ups when its trying to take on a calm minder while toxic'ed. Chansey is an exact replica of blissey except it has less hp/def/sp atk/sp def/speed and is pretty much restricted to 6 moves. 

Alright, lets look at the top 10 of usage to see exactly how wrong you are, because as it turns out, you're really fucking wrong. I'm going to write "X" if Chansey "walls" something and "+" if the pokemon can 2HKO it.

 

Metagross + Arcanine X Weezing X Flygon +  Chansey X Porygon2 X Ludicolo X Magneton X (no one just keeps Chansey in after it uses Metal Sound) Venusaur X Aerodactyl X - RS is 3HKO Starmie X Slowbro X Skarmory X Gyarados X Swampert + (assuming CB) Dugtrio + Cloyster X Jolteon X Forretress X  Heracross +  Dusclops X Gardevoir X Vaporeon X Ursaring +

 

So in reality the correct statement is that "Chansey walls most pokemon who are on more than 10% of teams". 18/24 pokemon have X's here, that's 75%. So no, most of the metagame does not fucking 2HKO Chansey. 

 

Thus we say that Chansey does have good defense against most of the metagame, along with great support to keep its wall teammates healthy in the face of setup attackers like Ursaring or Heracross. 

 

More than Chansey's defensive effectiveness though, or the fact that it runs Protect (you're srs straw manning here, no one is suggesting we ban anything because it learns Protect), Chansey is just too good not to use. It fits on any team because it's a 100% perfect counter to Toxic stall, which brings down every other wall in the game. There's no downside when the top specially defensive pokemon (and important attackers like Slowbro, Porygon2 and Ludicolo) can get wall-stalled by Toxic and die. Chansey basically outclasses any special wall since it can provide reliable damage with Seismic Toss while also preventing counter-walling with Toxic. Just by having Chansey on your team you're immediately immune to Toxic while simultaneously being impervious to most common special offense.

 

TL;DR - there's a reasonably argument for Chansey being Uber Defense, but an even more reasonable one for it being unhealthy, centralizing, and "too good not to use" enough that we shouldn't keep it around.

That argument can be made for porygon2 though lmao. Porygon isnt 2hko'ed by metagross/arcanine/weezing/chansey/porygon2/ludicolo/magneton/venusaur/aerodactyl/starmie/slowbro/gyarados/cloyster/jolteon/forretress/dusclops/gardevoir/vaporeon. So ban porygon2 too? 

 

I think you guys are overestimating seismic toss. Porygon2 is better than chansey in multiple ways since its not a free switch in for physical attackers since they have to worry about return/thunderbolt/ice beam/shadow ball/psychic/hp fire/thunder wave etc. Seismic toss is better vs some pokemon, but a lot worse than boltbeam coverage vs pokemon like flygon/aerodactyl/gyarados/starmie/slowbro etc. 

 

>Being immune to toxic. Last time I checked, chansey isn't immune to toxic and is pretty crippled by it. In the ou tournament on sunday, I toxic'ed a chansey while it switched in, seismic tossed it, then went to heracross, absorbed the toxic, and then ko'ed chansey with pursuit, thanks to toxic damage pressuring it a ton. If we were to ban status absorbers, we better ban starmie, since it can switch in vs a lot of toxic users and recover off damage and switch out to heal its status. 

 

I still don't believe a pokemon with 30% usage is "centralizing" as compared to blissey/snorlax that were anywhere from 50-80% usage. 

[Robofiend]

 

 

Well the thing with the coverage is that even if you drop a coverage move, chances are return will hit the pokemon harder than chanseys seismic toss. A flygon or specially defensive venusaur don't exactly like taking a stab return, both doing more than a seismic toss. Seismic toss is also a 4hko on magneton, assuming you run 76 hp evs at least, which is not a lot to be honest. If you're assuming people are going to switch out chansey when it goes to -sp def, you have to assume that they have something that can take a thunderbolt or hp grass/ice. Not a whole lot of pokemon can take both of those, especially when you're already running chansey as a special wall. If you can knock out a flygon while chansey switches out, then jolteon is still being a viable pokemon, even if it is then walled by chansey. 

 

I still think misdreavus has a ton of potential, considering the perish trap set can pretty much trap any pokemon without fail, but also fearing the calm mind set where you have to worry about thunderbolt/shadow ball/hp fire/fighting/psychic coverage moves. Aerodactyl most likely won't risk switching in vs a misdreavus when it can easily stay in, tank a hit, then ohko with a +1 thunderbolt, or metagross where it is outsped and is 3hko'ed by +1 shadow ball, and can't ohko with meteor mash or pursuit. 

I'd say it depends on the cm special attacker. If its a special attacker that has some sort of recovery, then it does quite well vs chansey. Especially if its a pokemon with synchronize, since chansey loses most match ups when its trying to take on a calm minder while toxic'ed. Chansey is an exact replica of blissey except it has less hp/def/sp atk/sp def/speed and is pretty much restricted to 6 moves. 

That argument can be made for porygon2 though lmao. Porygon isnt 2hko'ed by metagross/arcanine/weezing/chansey/porygon2/ludicolo/magneton/venusaur/aerodactyl/starmie/slowbro/gyarados/cloyster/jolteon/forretress/dusclops/gardevoir/vaporeon. So ban porygon2 too? 

 

I think you guys are overestimating seismic toss. Porygon2 is better than chansey in multiple ways since its not a free switch in for physical attackers since they have to worry about return/thunderbolt/ice beam/shadow ball/psychic/hp fire/thunder wave etc. Seismic toss is better vs some pokemon, but a lot worse than boltbeam coverage vs pokemon like flygon/aerodactyl/gyarados/starmie/slowbro etc. 

 

>Being immune to toxic. Last time I checked, chansey isn't immune to toxic and is pretty crippled by it. In the ou tournament on sunday, I toxic'ed a chansey while it switched in, seismic tossed it, then went to heracross, absorbed the toxic, and then ko'ed chansey with pursuit, thanks to toxic damage pressuring it a ton. If we were to ban status absorbers, we better ban starmie, since it can switch in vs a lot of toxic users and recover off damage and switch out to heal its status. 

 

I still don't believe a pokemon with 30% usage is "centralizing" as compared to blissey/snorlax that were anywhere from 50-80% usage. 

 

 

First things first:

 

Sure, Porygon doesn't get 2hko'd by everything, but no, that doesn't mean it's as good to have on a team as Chansey. Chansey's ability to soak up Toxic, as well as dish it out, as well as Wish heal teammates, as well as Heal Bell teammates back to healthy status is a clear advantage over watching your Porygon die to poison, even if Porygon provides a bit more offense. 

 

Absolute rofl at "Chansey isn't immune to Toxic" - do you know how Natural Cure works? Please don't make me be condescending by making claims like that.Your Pursuit kill is not standard, nor was it a good play on your opponent's part not to Wish/Protect itself back to safety or scout Heracross's move. And just because Heracross can kill Chansey doesn't mean we should all have to run it to stop Chansey from Toxic stalling everything to death. 

 

Also 30% usage is low, updated usage will show Chansey's being used at a much higher rate, which only helps our "yo it's centralizing" point. I definitely saw it on over 30% of teams Sunday.

[NikhilR]

 

 

Well the thing with the coverage is that even if you drop a coverage move, chances are return will hit the pokemon harder than chanseys seismic toss. A flygon or specially defensive venusaur don't exactly like taking a stab return, both doing more than a seismic toss. Seismic toss is also a 4hko on magneton, assuming you run 76 hp evs at least, which is not a lot to be honest. If you're assuming people are going to switch out chansey when it goes to -sp def, you have to assume that they have something that can take a thunderbolt or hp grass/ice. Not a whole lot of pokemon can take both of those, especially when you're already running chansey as a special wall. If you can knock out a flygon while chansey switches out, then jolteon is still being a viable pokemon, even if it is then walled by chansey. 

 

I still think misdreavus has a ton of potential, considering the perish trap set can pretty much trap any pokemon without fail, but also fearing the calm mind set where you have to worry about thunderbolt/shadow ball/hp fire/fighting/psychic coverage moves. Aerodactyl most likely won't risk switching in vs a misdreavus when it can easily stay in, tank a hit, then ohko with a +1 thunderbolt, or metagross where it is outsped and is 3hko'ed by +1 shadow ball, and can't ohko with meteor mash or pursuit. 

 

Well Venu doesn't mind it tbh:

0 Atk Porygon2 Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 57-67 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

You're going wrong in your comparison between P2's return vs Chansey's seismic toss. The argument here isn't about who hits whom harder, but who walls whom harder. If Flygon switches into P2, p2 is forced to switch out to another pokemon blindly whereas if it's Chansey, there is a chance that Chansey may or may not have to switch out depending on the move (aka tpunch). It can learn this through protect.

 

I personally don't run hp evs on magneton because I go full speed to ensure I outpace every metagross, ursaring, arcanine out there. 

 

Venusaur, Arcanine, Ludicolo can take a tbolt or hp ice/grass. Eitherways, even if Magneton gets a kill, it still doesn't break Chansey. That bolded statement is also completely wrong because just because something's viability increases, it still doesn't mean it is viable overall. 

 

While the perish trapping set can trap without fail, it has its disavantages of not being able to sweep and not take out Chansey. At most people will go into an offensive pokemon and things like metagross would 2hko Misd. 

 

Misd doesn't ohko Aerodactyl at +1. So aero can switch in.

 

+1 58 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 126-150 (81.2 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Also, if Metagross is running 0 bulk, then:

 

+1 58 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 68-82 (43.8 - 52.9%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Misdreavus: 102-120 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

So eitherways, Metagross wins. 

[BurntZebra]

God damnit, how did I just do that, somehow selected all my text and deleted it in 2 seconds, then closed my tab and auto saved content was just a single letter. Well I guess I'll condense what I said now since I'm lazy before I go to bed. 

 

@nikhilr

 

Misdreavus can definitely be faster than metagross since its the same speed as heracross, although it will lose out on some bulk, it can be worth it in some scenarios. Outspeeding metagross/magneton is pretty useful, or even being hardcore and outspeeding stuff like 134 speed gyarados etc. I won't deny misdreavus is pretty weak until it gets a few calm minds under its belt. Perish misdreavus has a 50% to kill anything that can't ohko misdreavus and has a 100% to trap anything that can't 2hko misdreavus which is pretty nice. 

 

@robofiend

 

Porygon2 can easily trace natural cure from starmie or chansey and heal itself that way, or just run cleric vaporeon/jolteon. Or be a total cool kid like craig and run facade porygon to 2hko chansey. 

 

Chansey is definitely prone to toxic still. Chansey being toxic'ed puts a huge timer on itself. It discourages protect scouting vs physical attackers greatly and puts it in a catch 22 situation where it risks taking extra toxic damage, at the cost of figuring out what the pokemon is choice banded into. In the heracross scenario, the person was screwed pretty much either way. They would either die to pursuit when they switched out, or would die to two pursuits+the accumulated toxic damage (~5/16 damage at that point) after they protected. Heracross is not the only pokemon that it applies for. Heracross, machamp, hariyama, ursaring, marowak, muk (only for true OGs), metagross, blaziken, and most other physical attackers can come in and force chansey into a difficult situation. It is better if the pokemon coming in can either be choice banded or have a set up move since it requires even further prediction on the chanseys users side. 

 

Have you not seen the marathon usage or what? I have faith in noad that the usage stats are right, and chansey is only at 34% usage, even though people claimed it was much higher.

[DoubleJ]

God damnit, how did I just do that, somehow selected all my text and deleted it in 2 seconds, then closed my tab and auto saved content was just a single letter. Well I guess I'll condense what I said now since I'm lazy before I go to bed. 

 

Have you not seen the marathon usage or what? I have faith in noad that the usage stats are right, and chansey is only at 34% usage, even though people claimed it was much higher.

 

Damn, deleting that wall of text always hurts. I've done it a couple times myself. Also in regards to the usage, I honestly think that it was emphasized more than what usage represents because Raaidn, Frags, and Nik all ran Wish Chansey. Their success probably left a lot of people thinking it was used more than it was. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by DoubleJ

[BurntZebra]

I think the first round usage might almost skew data since people in first round might run weirder stuff that doesn't exactly work, although might kind of balance out when people in semifinals/finals ran Chansey every round or w/e

[Rache]

If it runs Softboiled over Wish/Protect or drops another move, Chansey can take out most physical attackers with Counter. In the majority of cases, it's also not so weakened that it can't come in later to heal itself or get a Wish pass from another Pokemon.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 279-328 (78.1 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 228-268 (63.8 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Superpower OHKOs though, scouting needed)

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 160-190 (44.8 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

etc.

[Robofiend]

usage for marathon

 

I haven't seen usage for the OU Marathon - I was under the impression that was still being worked on? If it has been released pls link.

 

Also can you please explain how you agreed that Blissey was unhealthy and needed to be banned and why now you think Chansey is healthy? It seems your views are very inconsistent here. Recall that usage is not the same as health, so you can't say "well 34% vs. 56%" and have that mean anything - there has to be a way in which Chansey is somehow good for an evolving metagame while Blissey was not. As far as I can tell, they both share the same characteristic of being the best special wall (even if they are beaten by things that people don't use, like Espeon - stop bringing it up) and best cleric. Also bear in mind that since the Gengar ban, usage rates for things like Jolteon have fallen.

 

As far as the "just run cleric" point - why would I run one of those when I can have something that does Porygon2's job and Vaporeon job in the same poke? The only reason I can think of is that Chansey outclasses all of the other Clerics almost by default.

[gbwead]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b2lMHHCPQdhyhHw-HXbGikwMGQTaklkArsYrfDYwnRk/edit?pli=1