[OU Discussion] Gengar [Voted 6-1 in favor of banning]

[DoubleJ]

Nice job as always!

 

Thanks Noad, it's all posted and ready to be discussed. 

[BurntZebra]

I strongly disapprove of a quick ban on the basis of an unhealthy characteristic. It makes no sense from a tiering standpoint. A gengar suspect test meta is not the same meta we will have after the gengar ban. A quick ban should not be based off another pokemons suspect test.

[DoubleJ]

I strongly disapprove of a quick ban on the basis of an unhealthy characteristic. It makes no sense from a tiering standpoint. A gengar suspect test meta is not the same meta we will have after the gengar ban. A quick ban should not be based off another pokemons suspect test.

 

I understand where you're coming from since this suspect test meta is not necessarily "stable", but when a pokemon is identified as being unhealthy by the majority of the council shouldn't it be banned to avoid a stagnant OU meta?

 

In my assumption the removal of Chansey will allow the tier to be played with more diverse styles. Choice Band users will benefit from the lack of Protect, Toxic users will benefit from one less Natural Cure and Cleric, special attackers will benefit by actually being able to beat their checks in certain scenarios, and Wish passing will be done by pokemon with less dominating defensive traits. 

 

There are very few negatives to banning Chansey, and as you've said yourself there are other special wall options that might even be better suited for the job (Porygon2, Umbreon, etc.). 

[BurntZebra]

So you're suggesting we ban a special wall that is outclassed by other Pokemon? Seems pretty logical.

[gbwead]

If quick banning is the issue, what do you guys think of prolonging the Gengar test and add Chansey to that prolonged test?

 

Edit: I personnaly would vote for a Gengar ban with or without the Chansey quick ban.

Edited October 1, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

Suspect tests shouldn't really be grouped together like that. Snorlax and blissey made some sense since they're both special walls, but gengar and Chansey have nothing in common

[gbwead]

I feel the problem is that some of us will only vote out Gengar only if Chansey gets ban too while others will vote out Gengar only if Chansey doesn't get ban afterwards. A joint test ban would allow us to see what scenario is the best or if none of them are desirable.

 

In order for the Snorlax/Blissey ban to happen, we had to go through a Snorlax test ban ( step A ), a one month period where nothing was banned   ( step B ) and a Snorlax+Blissey test ban ( step C ). 

 

In the event we vote against the Gengar ban, wouldn't it be wiser to skip the step B and test directly the no Gengar/Chansey meta?

 

[hr]

 

On another note, last time I checked (maybe I missed a post) we were all dimissed from our council duties until further notice.

Are the 7 of us officially allowed to vote?

 

Furthermore, for the Blissey/Snorlax test ban, DrCraig was just nominated (similarly to all of us), but wasn't allowed to vote yet. It was Senile/Robofiend/Burntzebra that started the test ban and not DrCraig/Robofiend/Burntzebra. 

Edited October 1, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

Step b is important since you can't really know for sure what the meta will exactly look like- even if you had a suspect test. That's why the whole 1 month wait time thing is there

[gbwead]

But step B is the same meta than what was going on prior to the test ban though (prior to step A). You pretty much go back to what is already known.

Edited October 1, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

It's still different than a suspect test meta. Potentially people didn't breed chanseys since it was just a gengar test meta and gengar definitely could have returned. It's a bit less of a risk for people to breed chanseys if the gengar ban is permanent.

[DoubleJ]

It's still different than a suspect test meta. Potentially people didn't breed chanseys since it was just a gengar test meta and gengar definitely could have returned. It's a bit less of a risk for people to breed chanseys if the gengar ban is permanent.

If that is the problem we choose to focus on then the unhealthy qualities that we've identified will only increase with increased chansey usage.

[BurntZebra]

If that is the problem we choose to focus on then the unhealthy qualities that we've identified will only increase with increased chansey usage.

more people running chansey= more people realizing how many flaws chansey has

[Robofiend]

Lets ban Gengar then? I have yet to read anyone saying it totally needs to come back, and I think we're all actually a lot happier with it gone unless someone's not speaking up.

 

edit: Zebra make a poll on this?

Edited October 1, 2015 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

I I I like gengar meta....

[BurntZebra]

6 against 1? also added poll on public gengar thread

 

and added one on this thread for good measure

Edited October 1, 2015 by BurntZebra

[DoubleJ]

A little something that compares the two meta-games...

 

 

Looking at Gengar alone makes you want to instant ban it for being absolutely broken. Impressive speed, insane special attack, two amazing STABs with near perfect coverage, a never ending move-pool, and typing that is second to none. Despite these qualities a ban must not be based on the individual traits of Gengar, but rather the variation in the meta-games with and without it. 

 

 

Now before you continue on just know, these are my own assumptions that were made by analyzing usage and also through my own play. 

 

 

1. Was there a significant difference in diversity of pokemon between the Gengar and Gengar-less metas?

• After analyzing usage it appears that there was on average an increase of 2-4 more pokemon with 10% or higher usage in the Gengar-less meta

2. Was there a significant difference in diversity of play-styles between the Gengar and Gengar-less metas?

• There appears to be a slight increase in defense-oriented, or stall-based, play in the Gengar-less meta (11 classic walls vs 13 classic walls with >10% usage)
• Physical offense appears to have a more difficult time in the Gengar-less meta with an increase in defensive walls
• Trap-based offense appears to have increased in popularity, which is surprising since trap was fairly apparent in the Gengar meta
• There appears to be a greater emphasis on using Spikes in the Gengar-less meta, which is surprising considering there isn't a quality spin blocker around

3. Did any pokemon have a sudden rise in usage between the two meta-games?

• Chansey, Ludicolo, Skarmory, Dugtrio, Magneton, Cloyster, Venusaur, Forretress, Kingdra, and Ursaring all saw a significant increase in usage (>5%) on average in the Gengar-less meta

4. Did any pokemon have a sudden drop in usage between the two meta-games?

• Porygon2, Heracross, Jolteon, and Vaporeon all saw a signficant drop in usage (>5%) on average in the Gengar-less meta

 

 

So in summary, there appears to be a rise in diversity among walls in the Gengar-less meta, as there are more walls with >10% usage. A variety of walls also saw a bump in usage of greater than 5%.

 

Both Dugtrio and Magneton have seen a 5% or greater increase in usage without Gengar, which supports the assumption that trapping has become more popular. 

 

Porgyon2, Heracross, Jolteon, and Vaporeon usage dropped the most without Gengar. 

 

 

To me, diversity improved without Gengar. Which is a good thing. Unfortunately the only play-style to truly benefit from removing Gengar was the defensive, stall-based play-style. Trapping saw a small bump in use too, which may be a counter measure to stall (Magneton trapping Skarmory and Forretress, and also applying pressure to Cloyster, Ludicolo, and Chansey. Dugtrio applying pressure to Porygon2 and Chansey).

 

Outside of usage, playing in this meta supported the idea that defense dominated. It was difficult to successfully use many physical attackers because of the plethora of various walls in play. Special Attackers were even more difficult to use do to the powerful special walls in play. This only supported the use of trap to eliminate those walls, which is in contrast to using Hyper Offense to simply break through the walls (it really couldn't).

 

 

tl;dr I felt the Gengar meta was a bit healthier (not much tho, imo both are bad) when comparing the variation in play-styles. Stall, Balance, and Offensive play were all viable with Gengar, unfortunately defense was restricted to a small handful of pokemon. Without Gengar defense appears to be freed and there is greater diversity in that play-style which is inhibiting offense from being very successful.

 

My opinion may not offer much, but I just wanted to share. I won't exhaust much energy debating this vote since there are faults to each of these meta-games. 

Edited October 1, 2015 by DoubleJ

[Artemiseta]

im totally fine with gengar gone. chansey im very skaptical about staying in the tier especially without gengar.

but do not keep gengar in teh meta to potentially balance out chansey

[BurntZebra]

Even though already 4-1, lf orange+nikhils votes

[Robofiend]

Even though already 4-1, lf orange+nikhils votes

 

I second this

[NikhilR]

Even though already 4-1, lf orange+nikhils votes

 

Sorry about that, I thought my post made it clear about me wanting it banned :P

[BurntZebra]

Sorry about that, I thought my post made it clear about me wanting it banned :P

Well having a poll in this forum is a nice formality to have for officially determining tiering decisions

[Noad]

Already spoke to Zeb about this - as far as I am aware him and Robo will be working on a write up and posting it here. 

[BurntZebra]

draft of gengar ban, robo might make some changes, or anyone can suggest them

 

Gengar has been banned to Ubers under the unhealthy characteristic.

 

There has been a lot of discussion about what Gengar falls under as it is quite the diverse pokemon. It can be a powerful special attacker, a powerful mixed attacker, a bulky status spreader, or even a perish trap wallbreaker. This kind of diversity of sets compounded with gengar’s coveted dual powerful stabs caused teambuilding to become vastly restricted. The usage stats from the post snorlax+blissey ban show that all the most used pokemon were pokemon that could check gengar and did not leave room for a lot of OU pokemon like venusaur, cloyster, forretress, tauros, marowak, ursaring, dusclops, etc, as they were all bait for gengar. Gengar exerted a large amount of pressure on every team and was reaching the stage of “too good not to use”.  

 

Gengar was then test banned in order to see if the meta improved. After five or six OU tournaments without gengar, the usage stats were in. The tier council came to a general consensus with a vote of 6 to 1 that the meta had improved significantly enough for the gengar ban to become permanent.

 

There are still issues in the OU meta, but we feel that the meta is overall better than the meta centralized around gengar.

[DoubleJ]

Looks good Zebra. Well written and hit all the essential key points.