[OU Discussion] Gengar [Voted 6-1 in favor of banning]

[BurntZebra]

Now that our overweight friends, snorlax and blissey, are banned to ubers for now and we are open to change the meta again, I feel a gengar discussion seems appropriate. It was obviously a centralizing pokemon in the several OU tournaments we had. It is arguably the most versatile pokemon in OU and requires a lot of effort to team build against. It has great stab spammable moves and nice defensive typing, giving it 3 immunities and multiple resists. It has some faster checks such as starmie, shadow ball jolteon, and crunch aerodactyl, but none of them can really switch in without fearing a stab attack or will o wisp. 

 

OU tier council was aware that gengar could become centralizing with the banning on snorlax and blissey, even before the test took place, as we stated in the snorlax blissey discussion thread, but the way we do suspect tests does not allow us to change the meta in any way as that would interfere with the suspect test. 

 

Feel free to discuss your opinion on gengar in this thread and whether or not you think it is banworthy. 

Edited October 3, 2015 by BurntZebra

[Robofiend]

Just want to point out that we have seen a few Gengar checks sprout up here and there:

 

Scizor - doesn't even care that much about Wisp, since it can guaranteed switch in. A Wisp/Split Gengar can beat it, but that set lacks coverage on pretty much everything else you'd want to cover. Cleric support also lets this Scizor live to see another day if it does get burned. It's not overspecific because it checks Porygon and Umbreon well and can sub to prevent status from walls things Weezing or Gardevoir. Normal sweeper sets can't hang with Scizor, no matter how hard they try.

 

Chansey -  a natural wall to the scary sweeper set, but weak to Taunt. If it pulls off a Twave, that's GG for Gengar

 

Swampert - the specially defensive variant is a nice stop to Starmie and can come in on a predicted Sludge Bomb or Tbolt with ease. Giga Drain is always a threat, but Gengar has a lot of better options to cover its few coverage holes.

 

Steelix - Another Steel Type that doesn't mind anything Gengar has to offer except Wisp.

 

Umbreon - the well known Gengar counter, it's really a lot more reliable than I originally suspected. Taunt prevents enemies from setting up while Wish keeps it (and teammates) healthy. Its ability lets it bounce back Will-o-Wisp in Gengar's face and pursuit trap variants without a stall move is reasonably deadly.

 

I think the thing with Gengar is that it's amazingly versatile and you need to scout it to be successful against it. Unfortunately, like Greninja in ORAS, sometimes that means you sack half of your team first. However, I'd like to point out that other physical attackers are really similar in terms of how devastating they can be: Aero rekts normal checks like Flygon, Metagross and can flinch sweep walls into the ground. CB Flygon hits everything really hard with Dclaw and can EQ/Fire Punch its Steel type checks out of play very easily. Heracross is similar, although it is walled by conventional walls more easily.

[DrCraig]

Ahhh Robo you're killing me we had this discussion
I'm gay for Magneton right now
Magneton with a little bulky is a great counter/check for Gengar. Also with Magnet Pull I feel like it is a great Pokemon to promote more offensive teams without forcing it. Magnetrons resistances and support make it pretty good overall right now.

I think Gengar is going to be the premier sweeper right now but as Robo said, it is similar to the power banders like Flygon have. Also with its typing and roles it will take a toll on the tier of us gone, but that's irrelevant anyway. I'd like to see Gengar become a significant problem before assessing it. Making a decision too early regarding Gengar could fuck up the tier. :)

Let's give it time

[Robofiend]

Now that Senile's gone lets just go ape shit and complex ban half of Gengar's moves 

[DrCraig]

Alright so let's ban focus punch so it can't be diverse no more

[BurntZebra]

If only we had a meta without snorlax and blissey to see how gengar is. OH WAIT. hue. Magneton is probably one of the best answers to gengar, but only if it has rest/sleep talk imo since a sp def drop on the switch from shadow ball can lead magneton into a quick death and people are going to start breeding their hp fire gengars. Scizor/steelix/swampert all hate getting burned and reduces their effectiveness greatly. Chansey can take special attacks decently but doesn't like a sludge bomb poison and it can't actually kill gengar without shadow ball or psychic. I don't really see how you can compare gengar and flygon since they aren't exactly that similar. Flygon gets all of its power from choice band, which means the user needs to be a god tier predicter and even then, it won't do enough to skarmory/weezing before the person playing the flygon pivots to something that beats flygon. Gengar is not limited by a choice band and gets the advantage of leftovers. I wouldn't even call umbreon a counter just because it can't really take sludge bombs that well. Assuming sludge bomb poisons on the switch (which it does most of the time anyways), umbreon is pretty much forced to heal as soon as it comes in. 

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 51-61 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- 6.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage

And then umbreon can only retaliate with a weak pursuit, assuming you don't want to forgo the ability to trap pokemon for extra base power with bite/faint attack. 

 

I do agree we should have a couple of OU tournaments still to see the meta, just in case it magically changed from last weekend because the snorlax/blissey ban was made permanent. 

 

Also no complex bans please kek

[fredrichnietze]

"complex bans are bad kek"

-senile 2014-2015

 

also sciz, chansey, swamp, steelix, and mag are not counters as they can not switch i vs all of gengars moves and win regardless of hax. 

 

chansey comes the closest, but it can do anything, and sub stops twave. 

[gbwead]

I'm gay for Magneton right now

I'm gay for the genderless magneton too XD 

Idk how well calm magneton would do against the rest of the OU meta, but against Gengar it is a really easy switch in. 

 

I'd like to add forretress light screen as a potential check and also hp fire venusaur that seems to do quite well right now.

[DrCraig]

I know we've had the Snorlax/Bliss-less meta, but I feel like people have been afraid to venture to far away from the previous meta because it was only test.

[Barrage]

I think Gengar isn't even close to comparable to Flygon because of how predictable flygon is and what a loose canon gengar can be as you guys mentioned. I think that's a really important factor to keep in mind and IMO will only become more significant as the meta develops. There is no single true answer to gengar, but there never has been even when laxbliss were around.

[DrCraig]

Tiering question
So Gengar fits the offensive uber, or is close to it, but I just have yet to see it do broken stuff in battles and what not. This leads me to ask, if something fits and uber but is not a "problem," do you ban it? Suspect?

I just think of Dugtrio which is uncompetitive in the way it revenge kills, but it isn't a problem. Is it like that? Until the uber becomes a problem it stays? (Yes I'm aware uncompetitive=/=uber, but I'm trying to draw a parallel situation)

[OrangeManiac]

Well if something is an Uber, it is a problem by definition.

Edit: I think Gengar is cancer but it's hard to write about. Is it offensive Uber? I don't know it has pretty mediocre speed for OU sweeper and laughable bulk. Does it sweep with little effort? Nope. Does it make the metagame centralized? I mean I guess you could kinda argue for that because you always know a Gengar is there but it isn't like Heracross which has really low selection of Pokemon to beat it. I'd say 50% of the viable Pokemon beats Gengar on 1v1 situation. To me oddly Gengar just fits the most vague unhealthy aspect ever - It is too good to not use. That's what Gengar mainly is about with the insane offense and variety but it just doesn't sweep without effort. But it does pack an insane power overall and just has some many positive traits but I don't know what ban criteria would I even list it even though I don't want to see it in tier but that just sounds biased.

Edited July 26, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[DrCraig]

Well if something is an Uber, it is a problem by definition.

Yea I know what you mean, but say Pokemon A fits an Uber characteristic and it receives no/little usage? Are we to assume it isn't a problem to the tier, or is it a result of the tier dealing with it and being stagnant, almost in the case of Snorlax?

 

I'm just curious that if something is broken, but isn't used, do we still suspect+ban based on it fitting the definition?

[OrangeManiac]

Yea I know what you mean, but say Pokemon A fits an Uber characteristic and it receives no/little usage? Are we to assume it isn't a problem to the tier, or is it a result of the tier dealing with it and being stagnant, almost in the case of Snorlax?

 

I'm just curious that if something is broken, but isn't used, do we still suspect+ban based on it fitting the definition?

 

Good point. I could personally argue that Zangoose fits Offensive Uber Characteristics but if it isn't used enough it's just not right to ban it. I kinda get what you mean now though. Gengar just gets insane usage.

Edited July 26, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Barrage]

For the sake of debate, is it possible Gengar fits the support characteristic? It comes in so easily, and is super threatening when it comes in typically. You dent things until you win basically. It's a hit and run type of Pokemon. You don't really sweep with it, but you definitely make it easier for other Pokemon to clean up, or just clean up with Gengar eventually.

[DrCraig]

PS - Orange/Robo fill out your viability ranks because letting everybody discuss each poke takes forever and your ranks will never be made

Edit: like think's

Edited July 27, 2015 by DrCraig

[Robofiend]

PS - Orange/Robo fill out your viability ranks because letting everybody discuss each poke takes forever and your ranks will never be made

Edit: like think's

 

This is supposed to be a Gengar thread dammit

 

Anyone have further thoughts after TT?

[DrCraig]

This is supposed to be a Gengar thread dammit

 

Anyone have further thoughts after TT?

PLEASE ROBO PLEASE

 

 

Tiering question
So Gengar fits the offensive uber, or is close to it, but I just have yet to see it do broken stuff in battles and what not. This leads me to ask, if something fits and uber but is not a "problem," do you ban it? Suspect?

I just think of Dugtrio which is uncompetitive in the way it revenge kills, but it isn't a problem. Is it like that? Until the uber becomes a problem it stays? (Yes I'm aware uncompetitive=/=uber, but I'm trying to draw a parallel situation)

 

Well if something is an Uber, it is a problem by definition.

Edit: I think Gengar is cancer but it's hard to write about. Is it offensive Uber? I don't know it has pretty mediocre speed for OU sweeper and laughable bulk. Does it sweep with little effort? Nope. Does it make the metagame centralized? I mean I guess you could kinda argue for that because you always know a Gengar is there but it isn't like Heracross which has really low selection of Pokemon to beat it. I'd say 50% of the viable Pokemon beats Gengar on 1v1 situation. To me oddly Gengar just fits the most vague unhealthy aspect ever - It is too good to not use. That's what Gengar mainly is about with the insane offense and variety but it just doesn't sweep without effort. But it does pack an insane power overall and just has some many positive traits but I don't know what ban criteria would I even list it even though I don't want to see it in tier but that just sounds biased.

 

Yea I know what you mean, but say Pokemon A fits an Uber characteristic and it receives no/little usage? Are we to assume it isn't a problem to the tier, or is it a result of the tier dealing with it and being stagnant, almost in the case of Snorlax?

 

I'm just curious that if something is broken, but isn't used, do we still suspect+ban based on it fitting the definition?

 

Good point. I could personally argue that Zangoose fits Offensive Uber Characteristics but if it isn't used enough it's just not right to ban it. I kinda get what you mean now though. Gengar just gets insane usage.

PLEASE SCROLL AND FEED ME AN ANSWER

[Robofiend]

PLEASE SCROLL AND FEED ME AN ANSWER

 

derp mfw i thought no discussion because still page 1.

 

A wall of txt relating to this:

 

If something is Uber and you absolutely know it: ban, no question. As soon as we realized Tyranitar could sweep most of the game given a turn of setup we knew it had to banned. As soon as we even tested Salamence, we knew it had to be banned. Others are not as clear: Dragonite seemed Uber, but since it wasn't really a problem for the metagame, we left it for a bit. Chansey in UU? Try it out, see that its massively fuckin broken after a couple tournies. Such is life, I guess.

 

Aside about what we mean by "Uberness"  and why the Support/Offensive/Defense distinction isn't helpful:

 

[spoiler]

I honestly think the "Uber" distinction should go, because it's just confusing and not even really used in Smogon suspect tests anymore. More often, the pokemon that we want are "cancer" or "problem pokes" in their tier for more than one reason. Gengar's not just a problem because it's a good sweeper, it also has good defensive typing and support characteristics that make it really really good. Similarly, Snorlax and Blissey weren't problems because they "walled everything," they were problems because they prevented a huge number of pokemon (even pokemon that can stop some sets) from even being usable.

 

Furthermore, the concept of "support Uberness" is even more fuzzy: every pokemon supports its team, and offensive/defensive can provide huge (and cancerous) amounts of support to their team, like Chansey in UU, while also being really good as just plain old defenders. Thus, I say these labels really aren't that useful - we almost always boil down arguments to either "this thing is certainly Uber" or "this thing isn't Uber per se, but it shouldn't be in the tier". 

 

[/spoiler]

 

As for usage: we all know usage=/=viability=/=banworthiness - however there are a couple of ground truths we all have a hunch about:

 

1. Given enough time, the best pokemon in the tier will be the most used. It makes no sense whatsoever to think otherwise, unless there is some artificial barrier (i.e. impossible to breed, impossible to get X move, impossible to get proper HP) preventing players from getting it. As such, Ubers will (in the long run) be highly used compared to the other pokemon in the tier. However, it's important to remember that things can be broken without having high usage - and in some cases, its better to catch Tyranitar when it's at 20% usage instead of when it's at 70% usage because people will bitch about it if you ban something they took a lot of time to breed. If you ever think something is Uber but it sees 5% usage, you probably have to wait to see if that is correct (unless it's Linoone because lol fuck that thing in every tier ever).

 

2. Usage rate needs to be considered in the context of the usage rates of other pokemon in the tier. There's a really big difference between a meta with 12 pokemon seeing 50% usage (i.e. players are uniformly picking 6/12) and a meta where 30 pokemon see 10-20% usage and one sees 70% usage. Neither is necessarily bad, but the one where a lot of pokemon are highly used indicates that the tier is stagnant and the one where something is 70% indicates that there is one pokemon that is pretty dominant or useful, but there are a lot of other options that play around it in different ways.

 

TL;DR here is that 30% usage in a tier with 50 pokemon around 10% usage (or whatever) and 30% usage in a tier with 25 pokemon all around 20% usage are two different scenarios and there's no hard and fast rule about what numbers indicate problems - it's more than usage stats... and so on with that whole line of reasoning. 

 

The general rules for tiering are:

 

1. Keep things balanced.

2. There shouldn't be strategies that are "too good not to use".

3. There should be a healthy variety of team options and playstyles available for players to use in order to maximize the possibilities for competitive play.

4. There should be a large number of threats that force players to pick teams based on guarding against some, while being weaker towards others.

5. No team should be "the best" and no playstyle should be unviable.

 

I could go on with this, but I won't. The point is that we should be aiming for metagames that are as close to the ideal form as possible, within limits where some things might be better than others but not massively OP or what have you. I'm sure this post makes less sense that I hoped it did while I typed it. RIP.

[DrCraig]

Thanks Robo, you cleared it up for me. I feel like if Gengar was to be banned, it would be a stretch, so I'm curious how flexible policy is. I see what you mean thoroughly though, thanks.

[Robofiend]

Maybe we should just test ban it lul

[OrangeManiac]

Maybe we should just test ban it lul

 

 

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[DrCraig]

Maybe we should just test ban it lul

No.

[Robofiend]

[Noad]

Can someone in the OU council give me a brief run down about where you guys currently stand on this spook? Thanks in advance!