[Test Banned to Ubers] Gengar

[TheRealPhatiman]

Overcentralization is bad because it is counterproductive to one of the most enjoyable things about pokemon: teambuilding.

 

Gengar might not fit the uber characteristics in terms of pure offensive prowess but instead puts immense pressure on the opponent

as a pivot,the momentum this dude grabs with a few easy predicts is insane.Beyond that its utilitarian nature makes it even harder to make the appropriate counter play without losing even more momentum to a miss play..I personally think that it falls under the support characteristic,it can consistently set up situations where other pokemon can easily sweep.and the thing is its not 1 or 2 ways that it does this but multiple ways.it can trap,disable and even curse as its on its last leg to give you a fresh switch while forcing a switch giving your sweeper a free turn to setup.core this with a trio to ensure your trap and win condition and it dominates even more..let me give you an example of something I'v personally built.this takes into account that my win condition has been fulfilled by means of trapping ludicolo and I've setup for the sweep.(modest 252 sp atk focus energy and scope lens)

 

Kingdra Surf vs. Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 206-243 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Kingdra Hidden Power Electric vs. Vaporeon on a critical hit: 146-172 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Kingdra Ice Beam vs. Venusaur on a critical hit: 142-168 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Kingdra Surf vs. Umbreon in Rain on a critical hit: 130-153 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I calced venu and umb at calm with 252 hp and sp def..nothing switches in to this and lives to tell the story,at best your only hope is to stall rain out with umbreon as it only 3hkos without rain..unless im missing any other possible checks im pretty certain thats it in terms of your options.with 3 layers of spikes its pretty much gg..

 

And all this with minimal effort and prediction because of gengars support.

[spoiler]this was just an example of gengars support characteristics,there are many more sweepers that sweep substantially easier because of its support capabilities alone.
[/spoiler]

as a whole I feel gengar is unhealthy for the meta not just because of the centralization taking place in ou because of it but because it fits under the support uber characteristics almost if not completely.

 

[spoiler]take into account ima noob and suck at comp though so i could be totes wrong.first tiering discuss I've been involved in so im here to learn.[/spoiler]

[Rendiz]

Overcentralization is bad because it is counterproductive to one of the most enjoyable things about pokemon: teambuilding.

 

Gengar might not fit the uber characteristics in terms of pure offensive prowess but instead puts immense pressure on the opponent

as a pivot,the momentum this dude grabs with a few easy predicts is insane.Beyond that its utilitarian nature makes it even harder to make the appropriate counter play without losing even more momentum to a miss play..I personally think that it falls under the support characteristic,it can consistently set up situations where other pokemon can easily sweep.and the thing is its not 1 or 2 ways that it does this but multiple ways.it can trap,disable and even curse as its on its last leg to give you a fresh switch while forcing a switch giving your sweeper a free turn to setup.core this with a trio to ensure your trap and win condition and it dominates even more..let me give you an example of something I'v personally built.this takes into account that my win condition has been fulfilled by means of trapping ludicolo and I've setup for the sweep.(modest 252 sp atk focus energy and scope lens)

 

Kingdra Surf vs. Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 206-243 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Kingdra Hidden Power Electric vs. Vaporeon on a critical hit: 146-172 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Kingdra Ice Beam vs. Venusaur on a critical hit: 142-168 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Kingdra Surf vs. Umbreon in Rain on a critical hit: 130-153 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I calced venu and umb at calm with 252 hp and sp def..nothing switches in to this and lives to tell the story,at best your only hope is to stall rain out with umbreon as it only 3hkos without rain..unless im missing any other possible checks im pretty certain thats it in terms of your options.with 3 layers of spikes its pretty much gg..

 

And all this with minimal effort and prediction because of gengars support.

[spoiler]this was just an example of gengars support characteristics,there are many more sweepers that sweep substantially easier because of its support capabilities alone.
[/spoiler]

as a whole I feel gengar is unhealthy for the meta not just because of the centralization taking place in ou because of it but because it fits under the support uber characteristics almost if not completely.

 

[spoiler]take into account ima noob and suck at comp though so i could be totes wrong.first tiering discuss I've been involved in so im here to learn.[/spoiler]

These calcs look Shady AF, not sure wtf you are doing to get these calcs but all i can say is they are wrong. Not sure what these kingdra calcs have to do with gengar but just for the fun of it you are using 2 moves to set up (rain dance + focus energy) so you can't have surf, ice beam + hp electric so it would be easy to wall the set you have listed has 5 moves.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Rendiz

[TheRealPhatiman]

These calcs look Shady AF, not sure wtf you are doing to get these calcs but all i can say is they are wrong. Not sure what these kingdra calcs have to do with gengar but just for the fun of it you are using 2 moves to set up (rain dance + focus energy) so you can't have surf, ice beam + hp electric so it would be easy to wall the set you have listed has 5 moves.

You're right,it seems out of habit i chose the ADV tab instead of DPP,I apologise..let me revise those calcs for you

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Rain on a critical hit: 129-153 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon on a critical hit: 152-180 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 205-243 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur on a critical hit: 142-168 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

even though they were'nt in the format you're used to the damage rolls proved to be correct regardless..

 

".this takes into account that my win condition has been fulfilled by means of trapping ludicolo and I've setup for the sweep" those were my exact words,I did'nt mention anything about kingdra setting up the rain,just that my win condition had been fullfilled and that the sweep was set up(i happen to use a suicide trode purely for rain and status)

 

as for what kingdra has to do with gengar if you took the time to thoroughly read my post I happen to mention that this is just an example of what a sweeper can do with gengar as support.the reason I did this was to outline my reasoning for why I feel he fell under the uber characteristic for support.

 

Support Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

 

As you can see gengar does just that for kingdra,it made the sweep substantially easier by taking care of its checks and fulfilling my win condition.

It does this on a consistent basis in common battle conditions not only for kingdra but most anything else(again,il reiterate kingdra was just an example i used out of familiarity.)

[londark]

You should use XY to calculate critical hits cause in PokeMMO it's used Gen 6 Crit Mechanic ( and don't use Sniper Kingdra )

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Rain on a critical hit: 93-109 (46 - 53.9%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[Rendiz]

You're right,it seems out of habit i chose the ADV tab instead of DPP,I apologise..let me revise those calcs for you

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Rain on a critical hit: 129-153 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Hidden Power Electric vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon on a critical hit: 152-180 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Rain on a critical hit: 205-243 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur on a critical hit: 142-168 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

even though they were'nt in the format you're used to the damage rolls proved to be correct regardless..

 

".this takes into account that my win condition has been fulfilled by means of trapping ludicolo and I've setup for the sweep" those were my exact words,I did'nt mention anything about kingdra setting up the rain,just that my win condition had been fullfilled and that the sweep was set up(i happen to use a suicide trode purely for rain and status)

 

as for what kingdra has to do with gengar if you took the time to thoroughly read my post I happen to mention that this is just an example of what a sweeper can do with gengar as support.the reason I did this was to outline my reasoning for why I feel he fell under the uber characteristic for support.

 

Support Characteristic

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

 

As you can see gengar does just that for kingdra,it made the sweep substantially easier by taking care of its checks and fulfilling my win condition.

It does this on a consistent basis in common battle conditions not only for kingdra but most anything else(again,il reiterate kingdra was just an example i used out of familiarity.)

Calcs are still incorrect + you should calc chansey with 0hp / 252spdef.

 

But if you are going to argue for a gengar ban your argument probably shouldn't revolve around a heavily RNG focused set which requires your opponent to let you have free turns for set up while using incorrect calcs.

[TheRealPhatiman]

 

[spoiler]take into account ima noob and suck at comp though so i could be totes wrong.first tiering discuss I've been involved in so im here to learn.[/spoiler]

 

 

You should use XY to calculate critical hits cause in PokeMMO it's used Gen 6 Crit Mechanic ( and don't use Sniper Kingdra )

 

252+ SpA Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Rain on a critical hit: 93-109 (46 - 53.9%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

thank you londar mate,its exactly why i mentioned at the end of the post that I'm here to learn,I know i suck at it but if I dont work towards it I'l never get better at it..

 

Calcs are still incorrect + you should calc chansey with 0hp / 252spdef.

 

But if you are going to argue for a gengar ban your argument probably shouldn't revolve around a heavily RNG focused set which requires your opponent to let you have free turns for set up while using incorrect calcs.

its not an rng focused set by any means,focus energy and scope lens = a 100% crit rate.I shall concede and admit that I made a terrible example of it..I thought i had thought it through thouroughly but in light of londars correction on my means of calcing Il admit that my argument regarding kingdra becomes null and void.I will however stand by the fact that as a support pokemon gengar indeed does fill the uber characteristics in how it can consistently provide situations where other pokemon sweep substantially easier,whether it be by trapping checks,disabling moves for safe switch ins to then set up on,by using wow to cripple a poke allowing your offensive pivot in more easily and again set up while it forces the switch or by suicidal means where it curses allowing a fresh switch and again forcing the switch to then once again set up.it does this with ease and can consistently do so in common battle scenarios.but like i said Im a noob and I can be totes wrong about it all together(as was proven about my initial argument)discussions are meant to have multiple people with different stand points,sometimes a persons perspective on something is wrong and its through healthy discussion that these individuals are given all the possible information to then assess their own views with a more educated and enlightened perspective.

[Rendiz]

thank you londar mate,its exactly why i mentioned at the end of the post that I'm here to learn,I know i suck at it but if I dont work towards it I'l never get better at it..

 

its not an rng focused set by any means,focus energy and scope lens = a 100% crit rate.I shall concede and admit that I made a terrible example of it..I thought i had thought it through thouroughly but in light of londars correction on my means of calcing Il admit that my argument regarding kingdra becomes null and void.I will however stand by the fact that as a support pokemon gengar indeed does fill the uber characteristics in how it can consistently provide situations where other pokemon sweep substantially easier,whether it be by trapping checks,disabling moves for safe switch ins to then set up on,by using wow to cripple a poke allowing your offensive pivot in more easily and again set up while it forces the switch or by suicidal means where it curses allowing a fresh switch and again forcing the switch to then once again set up.it does this with ease and can consistently do so in common battle scenarios.but like i said Im a noob and I can be totes wrong about it all together(as was proven about my initial argument)discussions are meant to have multiple people with different stand points,sometimes a persons perspective on something is wrong and its through healthy discussion that these individuals are given all the possible information to then assess their own views with a more educated and enlightened perspective.

It is still an RNG set as a lot of the time you won't be able to set up focus energy and will have to start attacking immediately after rain dance. If you only look at things from the perfect idealistic perspective then far more sets become viable which aren't so good in practice.

 

Also sorry if i came across as a dick in my previous posts that was not my intention.

[Vaeldras]

A gengar killed my gengar it's broken let's ban it

 

I noticed most magneton are basically dead weight.

you either run a bulky variant or succumb to sludge bomb am bad/ shadowball.

Not that it has any healing move anyway.

Also the subpunch set with sbomb and sball is by far the most dangerous imo, mostly because of sub being so good on it

Edited August 6, 2015 by Vaeldras

[DrCraig]

I did well in this official today and I ran Magneton through out and I thought it was awesome
Yea, it is only an officials but bear/bare/bair/behre/beir with me

I think Magneton is awesome because you don't have to run much bulk to shut down a special Gengar. I mean yea focus punch exists, but I wouldn't call Magneton a counter to Gengar anyway. It's only a check, its worn down, and yea it needs support. What I love the most is that Magneton can be used to support offensive teams which benefit from Skarmory/Forretress hitting the dust. Magneton can clean up Metagross also without losing bulk.

You definitely need to have Magneton as part of a core but overall I think it's a great way to answer Gengar and support ur team
It's not a god-wall, but it's a damn good poke right now

[Vaeldras]

I did well in this official today and I ran Magneton through out and I thought it was awesome
Yea, it is only an officials but bear/bare/bair/behre/beir with me

I think Magneton is awesome because you don't have to run much bulk to shut down a special Gengar. I mean yea focus punch exists, but I wouldn't call Magneton a counter to Gengar anyway. It's only a check, its worn down, and yea it needs support. What I love the most is that Magneton can be used to support offensive teams which benefit from Skarmory/Forretress hitting the dust. Magneton can clean up Metagross also without losing bulk.

You definitely need to have Magneton as part of a core but overall I think it's a great way to answer Gengar and support ur team
It's not a god-wall, but it's a damn good poke right now

 

Mine is modest, should i re ev and give it a try?

[DrCraig]

Mine is modest, should i re ev and give it a try?

I run modest, 252satk, and give it a nice big speed creep to do stuff and then bulk it out.

[codylramey]

I went against magneton twice in the official and once in the unofficial today. Both times they put quit a bit of pressure on my team.

Edited August 6, 2015 by codylramey

[Vaeldras]

I mean, gengar wouldn't even be that much of a threat to me without sub (and no i'm not suggesting a complex ban).

It punishes chansey so hard you can't even attempt to use aroma.

That thing is gonna switch in, sub and kill one of your pokes, guaranteed.

[codylramey]

I mean, gengar wouldn't even be that much of a threat to me without sub (and no i'm not suggesting a complex ban).

It punishes chansey so hard you can't even attempt to use aroma.

That thing is gonna switch in, sub and kill one of your pokes, guaranteed.

I love that gengar punishes chansey so much tbh. Its a price you pay for using arguably the best spcl wall.

 

But gengar cant switch into twave chansey w/o cleric support.

[Vaeldras]

I love that gengar punishes chansey so much tbh. Its a price you pay for using arguably the best spcl wall.

 

But gengar cant switch into twave chansey w/o cleric support.

 

Considering how gengar is atm the most threatening sp att i'm not sure how good that is.

gtg, i sound like jj now

[DrCraig]

Anyway, I don't know how I feel about Chansey. The offensive presence is just not there compared to Blissey. Gengar does consistently punish it unless it can dish out a Twave or run some ugly shadow all. Chansey just kinda sits there like Forretress and does support things. Aroma on Chansey is silly in my opinion since Chansey has some mean 4mss. Chansey is just a wannabe.

[spoiler]Like Charles Barkley[spoiler]Space Jam?[spoiler]Mhm[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]

[Rigamorty]

A gengar killed my gengar it's broken let's ban it

 

I noticed most magneton are basically dead weight.

you either run a bulky variant or succumb to sludge bomb/ shadowball.

Not that it has any healing move anyway.

Also the subpunch set with sbomb and sball is by far the most dangerous imo, mostly because of sub being so good on it

I have found Magneton to be extremely useful actually.

 

And if your magneton is succumbing to sludge bomb, you need a new magneton since yours apparently lost its steel typing

[BurntZebra]

I have found Magneton to be extremely useful actually.

 

And if your magneton is succumbing to sludge bomb, you need a new magneton since yours apparently lost its steel typing

obviously running soak sludge bomb gengar

[necund]

sneasel ends gengar. CB pursuit doesnt even need it to switch to kill. 
now you all know the secret and you can go train

[OldKeith]

sneasel ends gengar. CB pursuit doesnt even need it to switch to kill. 
now you all know the secret and you can go train

 

If only...

 

252 Atk CB Sneasel vs 4 HP Gengar 92.6% - 110.3%. Also, can't switch in on Gengar...

Edited August 6, 2015 by OldKeith

[Vaeldras]

I have found Magneton to be extremely useful actually.

 

And if your magneton is succumbing to sludge bomb, you need a new magneton since yours apparently lost its steel typing

 

I still haven't tested mine, but i did take some magneton down with my gengar.

Ofc they weren't invested in sp def since they went down in 3 hits

 

Edit: also mfw sludge bomb on magneton, lemme edit

Edit 2: dunno, maybe with some wish support

Edited August 6, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Vaeldras]

Oi, i came up with this to take care of that sub/punch set, and i think i'll give it a try

 

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 214 SpD Umbreon: 52-63 (25.7 - 31.1%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Umbreon: 90-106 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

ofc i'm aware that something like a layer of spikes has the potential to fuck it up, but it seems like a very good check, especially if paired with chansey.

 

Venusaur looks like another good check, but it won't break it's sub with standard moves (hidden power?)

 

252 SpA Gengar Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venusaur: 58-70 (31 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (wtf)

 

Too bad pain split + sp def drops will eventually beat it unless you run something like hp ghost; however i doubt anyone would run pain split with a sub punch set.

 

 

FFS didn't use leftovers.

6 am, lemme fix

 

edit 2: fix'd

Edited August 9, 2015 by Vaeldras

[bigbangattack]

Chancey coming back is helping by bringing focus punch and defensive sets back the unchecked 3-4 attacks set was the problem imo

[Vaeldras]

Robo wakup

[DoubleJ]

OU council wake-up