[Test Banned to Ubers] Gengar

[codylramey]

Can the OU Council discuss what they will be looking at throughout this test ban? For instance, what will the criteria be to ban or not ban Gengar after these 5 tournaments?

I too would like to know this. Dont really know what you guys expect, ludi usage raising? Something else as a spcl atker?

[Robofiend]

So now we go from one meta where trapping was a nuisance (LaxBliss), to a meta where trapping was a problem (Gengar), to a meta where trapping is the meta (Dug + Magneton OP).

 

Can the OU Council discuss what they will be looking at throughout this test ban? For instance, what will the criteria be to ban or not ban Gengar after these 5 tournaments?

 

Criteria for evaluating health will be the same as always (diversity of teams/pokes/strategies, balance of luck/skill, competitiveness, etc.) - LF that Smogon post.

 

I mentioned in particular that Normal spam and EndRev spam (Dugtrio is a form of this) would become a problem - other than that I'm not sure what else might become a problem. I don't really foresee Dug/Mag as being super broken in their own right- neither gets the unchallenged OHKO on Metagross, both are weak to Arcanine and other new threats might arise to prevent them from becoming too dominant. Sure, you can get that Skarm/Bliss kill, but against more offensive teams Dugtrio might prove to be a bit less useful.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

Criteria for evaluating health will be the same as always (diversity of teams/pokes/strategies, balance of luck/skill, competitiveness, etc.) - LF that Smogon post.

 

I mentioned in particular that Normal spam and EndRev spam (Dugtrio is a form of this) would become a problem - other than that I'm not sure what else might become a problem. I don't really foresee Dug/Mag as being super broken in their own right- neither gets the unchallenged OHKO on Metagross, both are weak to Arcanine and other new threats might arise to prevent them from becoming too dominant. Sure, you can get that Skarm/Bliss kill, but against more offensive teams Dugtrio might prove to be a bit less useful.

 

Ya, but what are we looking for?

 

Compare and contrast the old meta to what you hope for now. For instance, in the old meta with Gengar, was offense just destroying everything and so you want to see more balanced teams? Are you looking for more even usage of pokemon or want to see more pokemon break above 10%? How do you compare "competitiveness"? Everything seems pretty ambiguous to me when it comes to the "health" of a meta.

[Robofiend]

Ya, but what are we looking for?

 

Compare and contrast the old meta to what you hope for now. For instance, in the old meta with Gengar, was offense just destroying everything and so you want to see more balanced teams? Are you looking for more even usage of pokemon or want to see more pokemon break above 10%? How do you compare "competitiveness"? Everything seems pretty ambiguous to me when it comes to the "health" of a meta.

 

Yeah it's definitely ambiguous but that's kinda the way it should be. Tiering is complex and it's rarely as easy to ban things as it was with Dragonite, Tyranitar or Curselax. 

 

Ideally it'd be nice to see everything ranging from stall teams to hyper offense existing in the same game. I've never been a big believer in usage stats as an indicator of health, but I think a "perfect world" metagame would be as flat as possible (nothing's on 30% of teams) and give equal preference to hyper-o/balance/bulky offense/stall. Gengar seems to punish offense and balance a lot more than stall - it sucks to have to sack something to beat Gengar, after all. Stall teams give you the protection of scouting and I think Gengar's part of the reason stall teams have seen more success lately, which is the last thing any of us expected when banning Blissey and Snorlax. Like I said, a perfect metagame would balance the pros/cons of any playstyle. 

 

Competitiveness = the best players win because they are good at playing the game, not because they get lucky or abuse elements of it (e.g. Gengar being really good) to win. A truly competitive game is one where you really want to win and you have to be really good to get the W. 

 

Some of this might be asking a bit too much of what we have. We have a limited pool of items that might prevent HO from ever being super viable and we don't have a lot of pokes/moves to work with. It might just be that the Gengar meta that we've had recently is as good as it gets. If that's the case, I'm hopeful the rest of the council will agree - especially if other aspects of the game take a turn for the worse.

 

I could ramble on a lot about this but: I think we're really close to a balanced game, as we do see some variation in playstyle etc. now, but there is room for improvement.

[DoubleJ]

 

Ideally it'd be nice to see everything ranging from stall teams to hyper offense existing in the same game. I've never been a big believer in usage stats as an indicator of health, but I think a "perfect world" metagame would be as flat as possible (nothing's on 30% of teams) and give equal preference to hyper-o/balance/bulky offense/stall. Gengar seems to punish offense and balance a lot more than stall - it sucks to have to sack something to beat Gengar, after all. Stall teams give you the protection of scouting and I think Gengar's part of the reason stall teams have seen more success lately, which is the last thing any of us expected when banning Blissey and Snorlax. Like I said, a perfect metagame would balance the pros/cons of any playstyle. 

 

 

Not to run a tangent, but maybe you never thought of this. Snorlax and Blissey were anti-stall. Snorlax set-up on all stall teams and abused the shit out of them with Curse. The only reliable stall poke to bring down Lax was Dusclops, but even then Lax could run Crunch to break it. Which was common and probs the second most popular coverage move behind Fire Punch (lf Haze). Stall teams absolutely hated Blissey. With Wish / Protect, Aromatherapy, and Natural cure, stall teams hit an absolute brick wall. They couldn't status it, nor could they outlast it. The only reliable option to beat it would be to run Taunt on your stall-pokes and force it out. 

[JoeyIandoli]

Gengar is a good poke yeah, but I wouldn't consider him an Uber. I'd consider Kingdra one before I'd consider Gengar one.

[DrCraig]

Gengar is a good poke yeah, but I wouldn't consider him an Uber. I'd consider Kingdra one before I'd consider Gengar one.

Read the thread 

 

Criteria for evaluating health will be the same as always (diversity of teams/pokes/strategies, balance of luck/skill, competitiveness, etc.) - LF that Smogon post.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/

[JoeyIandoli]

Read the thread 

 

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/characteristics-of-a-desirable-pokemon-metagame.66515/

? It's a discussion about Gengar. I already voted, I'm just stating my opinion on the matter

[Rache]

Gengar has now been test banned to Ubers for the duration of six tournaments~

 

 

 

The OU Tier Council has decided to test ban Gengar for the duration of 5 Official OverUsed tournaments. Boasting great typing, a huge movepool, a useful ability and great base stats, Gengar is capable of running extremely effective sweeper sets, mixed sets, trapper sets, bulky support sets, and pretty much everthing in between There is a Gengar set to fit every team's needs to the point that it is borderline too good not to use.

 

The roles Gengar plays are unmatched and difficult to deal with on the defensive and offensive side. The lack of answers to Gengar results in team building being restricted to stacking Gengar checks. Evidence of this can be seen in a number of pokemon - including max SpDef Magneton, Arcanine and Metagross, whose EV spreads exist almost strictly to counter it. 

 

Despite its strengths, Gengar is not "Uber" as the OU Council sees it and can be played around to some degree. Some players have suggested Gengar is the necessary "glue" that prevents strategies like Normal spam to Endure/Reversal from running rampant. We will be watching the metagame closely to see if these predictions are true, as well as further signs that banning Gengar actually creates a less competitive tier. 

 

After the 5 tournaments period for which Gengar is test banned, a final decision will be made on Gengar's place in the OU tier.