Robofiend Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) "Gengar so spoooky pls ban" - Everyone I'll keep this relatively brief: We've all seen this coming since the advent of the Snorlax/Blissey test ban. With amazing defensive typing, a movepool wide enough to hit most of the tier for at least neutral damage, 2 stabs that can tear through common checks and a support movepool that is as or more unpredictable as its offensive movepool, Gengar is the scariest pokemon in OU right now. There's been a lot of talk about Gengar being offensively Uber and that it needs to get banned. I'm not particularly of that opinion, but it's time for this thread to happen. Like Greninja in XY, it's a pokemon you need to scout in order to stop, but it has the power to totally break your switch in if you mispredict what kind of set it's running. Bulky Steels are a good bet for stopping most sets, but Wisp completely disables them, Chansey stops the firepower of Sludge Bomb but can't hang with Sub-Punch, Umbreon can stall it but will eventually get worn down or Taunted to death unless it gets a crit or something. TL;DR - it's really good, and even good players struggle to stop it from tearing their team apart. Sets: Sweeper @ Leftovers/Lum 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid - Shadow Ball - Sludge Bomb - Tbolt - Surprise! [Taunt/Destiny Bond/Disable/Will-O-Wisp/HP Fire/Substitute] Annoyer @ Leftovers or ??? ??? / ??? Nature: ??? - Surprise! - Shadow Ball - Surprise!!! - ???? Sub Punch @ Leftovers Some Attack / Some Spa / Some Speed - Sub - Focus Punch - Shadow Ball - Tbolt (or surprise) Some notes: - Please keep discussion on topic. Remember that we're talking about Gengar's place in the metagame and whether it fits as an "offensive Uber" . - No blaming prior bans ("We wouldn't have this problem if SOMEONE didn't ban Snorlax"). The past is behind us. - No speculating about the metagame after a Gengar ban or opposing the ban based on what you think will happen. You can't predict what will happen, so don't try. - Kek Edited August 11, 2015 by Noad Gunthug, Arimanius, OrangeManiac and 2 others 5 Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) As i said i'm 50-50. But if we're just talking about it's "offensive" presence then i wouldn't call it a uber, but it's the closest thing we have to a uber offensive threat. It's most dangerous moves are: Tbolt, shadow ball, sludge bomb, psychic and giga drain. Also fpunch to take care of chansey and umbreon, but it needs sub too, and that leaves him with only 2 actually dangerous moves. Umbreon could be used to scout, but that's about it. Now, the problem with steel types is, as you already said, wow will cripple them pretty hard so they won't work unless they're special hitters. that restricts us to just magneton and even then i'm not sure how well it can take an hp fire. It's downsidesare crappy defenses and a weakness to pursuit/crunch, so it can be trapped quite easily with aero/ dugtrio when it's been damaged a lil bit. To sum up: Good speed, awesome sp att, crappy defenses, access to wow, awesome typing and a perfect offensive moveset. It can 2hko the whole meta but it's stopped by everything that's faster in a 1v1. Maybe not uber in the classical "setup and sweep" way, possibly in a hit and run way. What keeps me from calling it a uber is it actually takes some skillz to use it effectively, it's not like spamming curse with snorlax. We need a test, there's not much more to say Edit: Also robot, what's your opinion? Edited July 16, 2015 by Vaeldras Link to comment
codylramey Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Does anyone else see the similarities in gengar in this meta and salamence in the old? It can 3-4hko most pokes with its stab moves, very fast, only steels walls it effectively, has moves to deal with nearly all of its counters, if you prepare for one set you can get swept by another. Not saying they are the same but there are some parallels that those two pokes share that not many other pokes have. Im looking forward to seeing some calcs. Lf Fred. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Does anyone else see the similarities in gengar in this meta and salamence in the old? It can 3-4hko most pokes with its stab moves, very fast, only steels walls it effectively, has moves to deal with nearly all of its counters, if you prepare for one set you can get swept by another. Not saying they are the same but there are some parallels that those two pokes share that not many other pokes have. Im looking forward to seeing some calcs. Lf Fred. The problem with salamence is it has ddance, intimidate and a good bulk. It didn't partially rely on support moves such as sub and wow, it was a plain sweeper. Totally different beasts on totally different levels. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Also, Salamence did had one surefire counter, and that counter was on every team RIP that old meta, those were the dark ages of OU as far as I'm concerned. DrCraig and ObamaExNo2 2 Link to comment
codylramey Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I didnt say there were the same, i said they share similarities not shared by many pokes in the meta. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 The problem with salamence is it has ddance, intimidate and a good bulk. It didn't partially rely on support moves such as sub and wow, it was a plain sweeper. Totally different beasts on totally different levels. Gengar doesn't have to rely on dragon dance. gg Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Gengar doesn't have to rely on dragon dance. gg Salamence without ddance is still more threatening than gengar. Now if you're implying you could have even a remote chance to sweep a whole team with just gengar... Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Salamence without ddance is still more threatening than gengar. Now if you're implying you could have even a remote chance to sweep a whole team with just gengar... mence was quickbanned, gengar is up for discussion. Just because mence is better than gengar doesnt mean the similarities arent there - theyre both ultra versatile and have viable sets that handle all of their potential checks and "counters." Mence might be stronger offensively in its own way, but it can't support like gengar (although we never really got a chance to see the wishmence set flourish) Draekyn 1 Link to comment
codylramey Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Yeaa srry i said anything. Getting off topic. Idt genar can actually sweep a majority of pokes as defined by smogon. He doesnt 1-2hko many pokes in the meta. Hes a great end game sweeper who can destroy a few walls with his stab or a surprise attack tho. Not sure if that counts as being offensively uber. Edited July 16, 2015 by Noad Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 mence was quickbanned, gengar is up for discussion. Just because mence is better than gengar doesnt mean the similarities arent there - theyre both ultra versatile and have viable sets that handle all of their potential checks and "counters." Mence might be stronger offensively in its own way, but it can't support like gengar (although we never really got a chance to see the wishmence set flourish) They're totally different things, one is a frail sp sweeper with a lot of amazing support moves, the other one is a bulky setup sweeper. Salamence's "counters" were way more obvious and were the only way to deal with it. I just don't see the similiarities Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Salamence without ddance is still more threatening than gengar. Now if you're implying you could have even a remote chance to sweep a whole team with just gengar... Sweeping with an unboosted salamence is unlikely as well. Vaeldras 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 They're totally different things, one is a frail sp sweeper with a lot of amazing support moves, the other one is a bulky setup sweeper. Salamence's "counters" were way more obvious and were the only way to deal with it. I just don't see the similiarities Gengar might be statistically frail, but he's got a plethora of useful resistances/immunities which arguably allow him to come in on a lot more than mence could. I think you should reclassify gengar as "a poke that can fill a variety of roles, such as sp sweeper, support, annoyer, etc very well" CB mence would have likely been his strongest and most used set, so not sure why youre classifying him as a bulky set up sweeper. Though mence didn't really have counters once the phys/spec split came, since 252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 112-133 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery but jeez we are WAY off topic now. What I'm trying to say is, you're not classifying gengar (or mence) correctly and it seems to be warping your view of their strength. Robofiend 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Yeah enough talk of Salamence in here, it was obviously not Uber pre-split and is obviously Uber post-split. Lets just bring Tyranitar back and it'll all be fine? Vaeldras 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Since you guys don't want to outright ban it let's just all agree it should undergo a suspect test Link to comment
DrCraig Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Since you guys don't want to outright ban it let's just all agree it should undergo a suspect test Why? Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 I don't see the point of test banning Gengar, I'd be more inclined to either ban it or just wait DrCraig 1 Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I don't see the point of test banning Gengar, I'd be more inclined to either ban it or just wait Yeh, gengar isn't really needed for anything at all, it's just there to annoy and be a pest. Reversal/endure is still going to be a shit strategy, so no worries. Link to comment
SpartacusGD Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Yeh, gengar isn't really needed for anything at all, it's just there to annoy and be a pest. Reversal/endure is still going to be a shit strategy, so no worries. U'll keep thinking like that til the day comes that you think you got all the glory winning 6-0 but the last poke is actually and endursal poke and 6-0s your whole team by then you'll stop saying that endure reversal is shit If lax and bliss isnt gengar is just literally a monster that can pulverize every ou poke, as written in the op its full of surprises, gengar can pretty much beat anything. Max speed starmie? Surprise my friend mafialight use endure salac gengar (sorry bro) but yeah just 1 good sample of how tricky and spooky gengar can be. The standard calcs are enough to prove it. The calm magneton is just 1 good sample of gengar being too big of a threat to alter your mag just for it. Edited July 16, 2015 by SpartacusGD DoubleJ, ItzJ0sh8, londark and 2 others 5 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Why? I don't see the point of test banning Gengar, I'd be more inclined to either ban it or just wait Ok here we go. The community, excluding Vaeldras and the die-hards that still fight for a traditional OU, were pretty much in agreement that Gengar deserved a ban if Snorlax and Blissey were exiled to Ubers. Even the council were in agreement that Gengar was/is a problem. This was even when Blissey was allowed in the meta with just a Snorlax ban. Now if the goal of the OU Tier Council was to create balance across the tier and avoid centralization, then Gengar should be removed. I mean we are considering Calm Magneton as one of the few options to prevent Gengar from breaking through your offensive core, your defensive core, and even your mama's core. I understand that Gengar doesn't have that "I will sweep your entire team" prototype, but honestly it's quite capable of beasting through most offensive teams. Trap kill Starmie and Jolteon with a bulky Metagross or a Dugtrio, and you basically have freedom to outspeed and 1-2HKO everything in the tier. From a defensive standpoint, Gengar has the versatility to cripple and break through nearly every defensive core. Additionally, Gengar has a unique defensive presence that appears to be overlooked by everyone outside of Spartacus, Nik, and myself. Obviously the tier council is on the fence about this ban otherwise it already would have happened, so a suspect test is going to be the logical option since there is no "good" argument to keep Gengar, and the council is brushing off most arguments for a ban. JJeaNz 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Ok here we go. The community, excluding Vaeldras and the die-hards that still fight for a traditional OU, were pretty much in agreement that Gengar deserved a ban if Snorlax and Blissey were exiled to Ubers. Even the council were in agreement that Gengar was/is a problem. This was even when Blissey was allowed in the meta with just a Snorlax ban. Now if the goal of the OU Tier Council was to create balance across the tier and avoid centralization, then Gengar should be removed. I mean we are considering Calm Magneton as one of the few options to prevent Gengar from breaking through your offensive core, your defensive core, and even your mama's core. I understand that Gengar doesn't have that "I will sweep your entire team" prototype, but honestly it's quite capable of beasting through most offensive teams. Trap kill Starmie and Jolteon with a bulky Metagross or a Dugtrio, and you basically have freedom to outspeed and 1-2HKO everything in the tier. From a defensive standpoint, Gengar has the versatility to cripple and break through nearly every defensive core. Additionally, Gengar has a unique defensive presence that appears to be overlooked by everyone outside of Spartacus, Nik, and myself. Obviously the tier council is on the fence about this ban otherwise it already would have happened, so a suspect test is going to be the logical option since there is no "good" argument to keep Gengar, and the council is brushing off most arguments for a ban. keep in mind that a suspect test doesnt necessarily involve removing the pokemon from the meta. With the new discussion system in place (ie: less discussions at one time) each poke that warrants a thread is, in effect, "suspected" for the duration of the thread. In this case, I'm completely with you that it's banworthy. However, seeing the meta without gengar won't tell us whether gengar is banworthy or not. Seeing the meta WITH gengar, while everyone's focusing on gengar, now that will be pretty convincing IMO. As long as they don't make us wait 6 tourneys like with that strange chansey test going on DoubleJ, Robofiend and Arimanius 3 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Either way, there needs to be some convincing going on for one party or another. Maybe after a few tournaments I'll flip sides and start arguing that Gengar is manageable and not Uber Offensive. Only time and play will tell. SirAlbert and Gunthug 2 Link to comment
Arimanius Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Exactly, I haven't seen gengar like a threat from my own experiences but that could change after a few tourneys so I'm in favor of waiting a little bit and see what happens not that it doesn't have the characteristics and versatility to be a top tier pokemon but RIGHT NOW FOR ME it is not something u couldn't manage with a good team Link to comment
NikhilR Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Since people want to be creative, Camerupt would be a nice check to Gengar. It can be a full on counter I guess if it's a rest-talk set but outside of Gengar, dunno how valuable Camerupt would be, because of its typing. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Camerupt: 114-135 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 SpA Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 171-202 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Camerupt is pretty trash when it comes to doing pretty much anything else in OU, however, and Gengar could just OHKO it with HP Water if it really became a strong and common counter lol. I propose we wait maybe a tournament or two more to give people a chance to respond to Gengar. Noad 1 Link to comment
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