DrCraig Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Ok here we go. The community, excluding Vaeldras and the die-hards that still fight for a traditional OU, were pretty much in agreement that Gengar deserved a ban if Snorlax and Blissey were exiled to Ubers. Even the council were in agreement that Gengar was/is a problem. This was even when Blissey was allowed in the meta with just a Snorlax ban. Now if the goal of the OU Tier Council was to create balance across the tier and avoid centralization, then Gengar should be removed. I mean we are considering Calm Magneton as one of the few options to prevent Gengar from breaking through your offensive core, your defensive core, and even your mama's core. I understand that Gengar doesn't have that "I will sweep your entire team" prototype, but honestly it's quite capable of beasting through most offensive teams. Trap kill Starmie and Jolteon with a bulky Metagross or a Dugtrio, and you basically have freedom to outspeed and 1-2HKO everything in the tier. From a defensive standpoint, Gengar has the versatility to cripple and break through nearly every defensive core. Additionally, Gengar has a unique defensive presence that appears to be overlooked by everyone outside of Spartacus, Nik, and myself. Obviously the tier council is on the fence about this ban otherwise it already would have happened, so a suspect test is going to be the logical option since there is no "good" argument to keep Gengar, and the council is brushing off most arguments for a ban. I still don't see the point in testing. I understand your position, but have no idea why we need to observe the meta with no Gengar. Link to comment
londark Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 From personal experience what i really find annoying about Gengar is the pressure it puts on Spinners. Unless you are using Starmie, or Claydoll i guess, Gengar can find really a pretty good opportunity to almost freely switch in, threaten the spinner itself or the opponent switch, that will also take spikes damage. To some extend Forretress is an exception since, it can't really hurt Gengar, but can spikes in return. ( the difference with dusclops is that giving it a free switch isn't as punishing as Gengar ) That is something that has bothered me for some time... Kanzo 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) I still don't see the point in testing. I understand your position, but have no idea why we need to observe the meta with no Gengar. Gunthug made a good point that with an Offensive Uber it is better to view the meta with it present than without. I was too caught up in the "healthy" argument from Blissey and Snorlax, which thus led to my suggestion for a suspect ban. EDIT: And this was just a reasonable next step considering we know what the meta looks like currently with Gengar and no Snorlax/Blissey. Edited July 16, 2015 by DoubleJ Robofiend and DrCraig 2 Link to comment
SpartacusGD Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Im pretty sure tc feel what we feel about gengar they just cant outright ban cos usage not high enough Edited July 16, 2015 by SpartacusGD Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) Im pretty sure tc feel what we feel about gengar they just cant outright ban cos usage not high enough i dk, usage has been pretty damn high from what ive seen edit: it is below 50% though, which is different than bliss/lax were Edited July 16, 2015 by Gunthug DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
JSTUD Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Keep Gengar because this hyper offensive meta is great. SneaKyKhaLidA, DrCraig, MorrizBell and 3 others 6 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Keep Gengar because this hyper offensive meta is great. There's part of me that wants to agree with you DrCraig and Vaeldras 2 Link to comment
MorrizBell Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Just ban disable of gar and thats all Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Ok here we go. The community, excluding Vaeldras and the die-hards that still fight for a traditional OU, were pretty much in agreement that Gengar deserved a ban if Snorlax and Blissey were exiled to Ubers. Even the council were in agreement that Gengar was/is a problem. This was even when Blissey was allowed in the meta with just a Snorlax ban. Now if the goal of the OU Tier Council was to create balance across the tier and avoid centralization, then Gengar should be removed. I mean we are considering Calm Magneton as one of the few options to prevent Gengar from breaking through your offensive core, your defensive core, and even your mama's core. I understand that Gengar doesn't have that "I will sweep your entire team" prototype, but honestly it's quite capable of beasting through most offensive teams. Trap kill Starmie and Jolteon with a bulky Metagross or a Dugtrio, and you basically have freedom to outspeed and 1-2HKO everything in the tier. From a defensive standpoint, Gengar has the versatility to cripple and break through nearly every defensive core. Additionally, Gengar has a unique defensive presence that appears to be overlooked by everyone outside of Spartacus, Nik, and myself. Obviously the tier council is on the fence about this ban otherwise it already would have happened, so a suspect test is going to be the logical option since there is no "good" argument to keep Gengar, and the council is brushing off most arguments for a ban. Nah, i'm not really against a gengar ban. Now you sound reasonable, can't say anything against that, besides maybe (and just maybe) gengar's defensive presence. I mean, you won't take it down with a ph sweeper that isn't aerodactyl, that's for sure. If you're asking me if i consider gengar to be unhealthy for this meta, my answer would be yes. I don't think if fits under any uber criteria doe, it's just that. I just don't like you guys trying to force a ban like that, even speaking for most of the community when i've only seen only a few people complaining about gengar. I'm fine as long as it gets banned for an actually valid reason. Link to comment
Vaeldras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Just ban disable of gar and thats all lel ban wow There's part of me that wants to agree with you I don't think banning gengar will result in our meta getting less offensive. Maybe a lil bit. MorrizBell 1 Link to comment
inovan Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) is easy talk when something is pretty hard for you and you cant find other way of course gengar deserve to be banned lets bring back wallmmo 1 or 2 hours each battle is nothing for us right? -STARMIE LVL 50 *252 SpA Starmie Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 164-194 (121.4 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO Moves: Psychic,Surf,Thunderbolt,Ice beam (signal beam,Recover):optional -ALAKAZAM LVL 50 *252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 200-236 (148.1 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO Moves:Psychic,signal beam,calm mind,substitute -ESPEON LVL50 *252 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 194-230 (143.7 - 170.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Moves:Psychic,signal beam,calm mind,substitute -GARDEVOIR LVL 50 *252+ SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 206-246 (152.5 - 182.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO FOR DISABLE GENGARS: *Moves:psychic,Shadowball,signal beam,pain split (Will-o-whisp) optional -BRUCE WAYNE AKA CROBAT LVL 50 *252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 122-144 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO *252 Atk Choice Band Crobat Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 80-96 (59.2 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO AERODACTYL LVL 50 -252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 178-210 (131.8 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO -252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 90-106 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (WHEN THE DMG IS 80 OKO GENGAR) *DUGTRIO LVL 50 -252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 76-90 (56.2 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Edited July 16, 2015 by inovan Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 bad post all of those pokemon die to shadowball/tbolt, they can only revenge kill OldKeith, DoubleJ, OrangeManiac and 2 others 5 Link to comment
LegendP Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 If gengar get banned , linoone should be banned too DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 If gengar get banned , linoone should be banned too still got skarmory/metagross/dusclops/arcanine/slowbro/aerodactyl/general offensive pressure to prevent linoone from setting up Robofiend 1 Link to comment
SpartacusGD Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 still got skarmory/metagross/dusclops/arcanine/slowbro/aerodactyl/general offensive pressure to prevent linoone from setting up Skarm and meta dies from magnet pull, all the others are gonna die from its thief dedge coverage. And we are using uu sp def walls, so belly drum is almost sure to setup. Cant deny it'll be plain op. Unless you are arimanius and claim you dont use an sp def wall but not all of us can be gods of prediction like him so. Linoone to ubers along with gengar please. pokypoku 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Flail fucks up the steals at +6. Dusclops is a good option for those variants since they rely on sub/endure and are basically monoattackers Link to comment
DaftCoolio Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 because this is a linoone discussion Robofiend, DrCraig and guigoz0rd 3 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Well it doesn't hurt to think about the outcomes of a gengar ban Link to comment
NikhilR Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 still got skarmory/metagross/dusclops/arcanine/slowbro/aerodactyl/general offensive pressure to prevent linoone from setting up Flail linoone for slowbro/metagross :) Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Well it doesn't hurt to think about the outcomes of a gengar ban Actually, there's a clause in the OP about not doin this lel If gengar get banned , linoone should be banned too As Zebra pointed out, there are a lot of pokes in OU that can Linoone hard, Intimidate away its boosts, or prevent it from even setting up in the first place. It can't set up on hardly anything without a ton of team support (screens/momento) which becomes an issue of its own. Edited July 17, 2015 by Robofiend Vaeldras, Gunthug and Arimanius 3 Link to comment
Arimanius Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Skarm and meta dies from magnet pull, all the others are gonna die from its thief dedge coverage. And we are using uu sp def walls, so belly drum is almost sure to setup. Cant deny it'll be plain op. Unless you are arimanius and claim you dont use an sp def wall but not all of us can be gods of prediction like him so. Linoone to ubers along with gengar please. still heart broken so sad :( and btw I don't know where you saw that, I never said I didn't use sp def wall xDOn topic:I don't think linoone becomes a problem if gengar gets banned, we have a lot of steel and bulky pokemons, priority and high offense power to stop a linoone from setting up or stop it from sweeping but I still think gengar shouldn't be banned, not right now but if it does then we will have time to see again if another pokemon becomes op. Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Im looking forward to seeing some calcs. Lf Fred. i got some bad new for you m8 also i always thought that if anything should be banned form doubles, it's gar. gar does not need to set up. gar has coverage for everything. gar can beat every/anything with he proper moveset. back when bliss/lax were around, gar could only win vs them with sub punch or boom or perish. perish only works vs a few threats. boom means gar dies too and it sometimes hits the wrong poke/sub/protect. sub punch means it has trouble hitting non fat blobs. now gar can truly show how viable and scary it is. unlike nidoking it's physical coverage counterpart, it does not need a item to lock it into a move. there are very few things that can play around it, and the purusit users can all be sub/disabled against or just killed by gar. (also this is my last post here so gambate all) pokypoku, DoubleJ, DrCraig and 1 other 4 Link to comment
inovan Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 problem whit revenge kill? lol Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 20, 2015 Author Share Posted July 20, 2015 So can we get some more community input here? Is there reason to keep Gengar in OU or should we ban it? DoubleJ and DrCraig 2 Link to comment
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