[Test Banned to Ubers] Gengar

[Vaeldras]

Btw, sorry for doubleposting but...what exactly was the reason why we should not keep it?

Did we ever even come to an agreement?

[Gunthug]

Btw, sorry for doubleposting but...what exactly was the reason why we should not keep it?
Did we ever even come to an agreement?

Brah, it's in the OP. I, and most others in this thread I would hope, have been using that classification to direct our discussion. I recommend you do the same in the future Edited July 20, 2015 by Gunthug

[Robofiend]

Gunthug is right, most of the argument in favor of banning this thing is in the OP

[Vaeldras]

Brah, it's in the OP

 

"There's been a lot of talk about Gengar being offensively Uber and that it needs to get banned"

Yeh but " I'm not particularly of that opinion" too. 

For example, i can see gengar being banned but personally i wouldn't ban it for that reason, because it's support abilities are playing a big part too.

 

Edit bcuz of your edit: i guess you're right, i suppose talking about it's support abilites would be derailing the thread then.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Gunthug]

"There's been a lot of talk about Gengar being offensively Uber and that it needs to get banned"
Yeh but " I'm not particularly of that opinion" too.
For example, i can see gengar being banned but personally i wouldn't ban it for that reason, because it's support abilities are playing a big part too.

You don't have to completely disregard gengar' other attributes when suspecting it for offensive uber - those simply add to gengar' prowess and versatility. However, even if you disagree with the reasoning behind the suspect (as robo did in the Op), it's still really helpful for discussion purposes.

[Vaeldras]

You don't have to completely disregard gengar' other attributes when suspecting it for offensive uber - those simply add to gengar' prowess and versatility. However, even if you disagree with the reasoning behind the suspect (as robo did in the Op), it's still really helpful for discussion purposes.

 

I mean, gengar behind a sub COULD potentially be able to sweep with fpunch, shadowball (essential to take down gardevoir) and another damage dealing move.

Setting up a sub against something like chansey or venusaur is definitely a common situation in our current meta.

Prediction plays a big part against gengar, so i'm not entirely sure if it fits our uber criteria. Maybe with hp fire to take down magneton after the sub is down.

Still not entirely convinced, let's say 60-40

[SpartacusGD]

Im pretty convinced its too op right now. Did some duel awhile ago, it just has too many switch-ins and can beat literally ALL the pokemon in the tier, yeah ni exageration all pokes in ou, with right prediction, proper hit and run it can destroy anything. Too much surprise, too good not to use idk anymore how i can express how atrong gengar is right now without lax and bliss also lf usage stats from the last ou official. I kinda stopped caring about tiering tbh so this will prolly be my last post here, so gunthug if you gon attack me again dont bother anymore

[Robofiend]

Im pretty convinced its too op right now. Did some duel awhile ago, it just has too many switch-ins and can beat literally ALL the pokemon in the tier, yeah ni exageration all pokes in ou, with right prediction, proper hit and run it can destroy anything. Too much surprise, too good not to use idk anymore how i can express how atrong gengar is right now without lax and bliss also lf usage stats from the last ou official. I kinda stopped caring about tiering tbh so this will prolly be my last post here, so gunthug if you gon attack me again dont bother anymore

 

Just so you know, TC appreciates your input (and input from others) even if we don't see it your way. I'm seeing your side of this argument more and more lately, Gengar's a bit much. Hopefully Ubers tournaments can help to make for an alternative metagame for some of the things we've felt were too dominating in standard.

 

Keep in mind it's like Gunthug says - tiering policy isn't supposed to let people attack each other, just their arguments. It can be hard to get used to this if you're not usually involved in things like debate or other "nerd stats" types of pastimes :)

[OldKeith]

As much as I think Gengar is OP right now, I believe banning it will open Pandora's box. Normal spam will come with much fewer risks associated, and coverage will be generally much easier to achieve. Now, I am not sure that this is entirely bad, but I am curious about the results if the ban happens.

[codylramey]

As much as I think Gengar is OP right now, I believe banning it will open Pandora's box. Normal spam will come with much fewer risks associated, and coverage will be generally much easier to achieve. Now, I am not sure that this is entirely bad, but I am curious about the results if the ban happens.

Slippery slope shouldnt work for arguments against complex bans (inb4 gunthug xD) and its not an argument for keeping a pokemon.

 

If gengar was indeed deemed OP and that lead to other bans and it did get out of hand the discussion to adding lax n bliss bak would prolly end up taking place.

[Robofiend]

As much as I think Gengar is OP right now, I believe banning it will open Pandora's box. Normal spam will come with much fewer risks associated, and coverage will be generally much easier to achieve. Now, I am not sure that this is entirely bad, but I am curious about the results if the ban happens.

 

Dusclops/Skarmory will become viable tho. Both are really risky to run right now because of how bad Gengar shits on em.

[OldKeith]

Wait, why was the rest deleted? Is discussing a potential meta without Gengar going off-topic now?

 

Well anyway, the normal spammers I think will become more viable now are:

Ursaring

Tauros

Kangaskhan

Dodrio

 

Being able to cover everything with Earthquake+Return will be huge for the first 3, Skarmory being the only reliable counter to them. But sure, that is not an argument for keeping Gengar in OU (as mentioned above), just stating what I feel will change in OU after we get rid this monster.

[BurntZebra]

Wait, why was the rest deleted? Is discussing a potential meta without Gengar going off-topic now?

 

Well anyway, the normal spammers I think will become more viable now are:

Ursaring

Tauros

Kangaskhan

Dodrio

 

Being able to cover everything with Earthquake+Return will be huge for the first 3, Skarmory being the only reliable counter to them. But sure, that is not an argument for keeping Gengar in OU (as mentioned above), just stating what I feel will change in OU after we get rid this monster.

There's still aerodactyl that is an offensive check/counter to them since its immune to ground/resists flying/normal. Also more wall options as robo stated, and the god of spinners, forretress, would actually be viable with no gengar to shit on it completely. 

[Rigamorty]

Wait, why was the rest deleted? Is discussing a potential meta without Gengar going off-topic now?
.

it pretty specifically says so right in the OP

[Barrage]

If your cancer patient gets chemotherapy and develops pain, weakness, hair loss, and other side effects of chemo, does it matter? Maybe, but all we care about at the time of treatment is getting rid of the cancer. So focus on that. Not the hair loss.

[bl0nde]

Right now, it is not uber. It is close, but it s not uber. The Gengar STABS are checked primarily by steels. I would be against a ban.

 

In the future, Kyu says they will implement a way to adjust the hidden powers. To what extent, I am not sure. The meta changes slow. 6-8 months down the road if HP fire gengars become not rare I will be for the ban.

 

 

[OldKeith]

Right now, it is not uber. It is close, but it s not uber. The Gengar STABS are checked primarily by steels. I would be against a ban.

 

In the future, Kyu says they will implement a way to adjust the hidden powers. To what extent, I am not sure. The meta changes slow. 6-8 months down the road if HP fire gengars become not rare I will be for the ban.

 

I don't think the ease of access to hidden power fire should factor for this discussion. If someone wants a hp fire Gengar, they will get it. The assumption is that everything is available for everyone.

[Gunthug]

Right now, it is not uber. It is close, but it s not uber. The Gengar STABS are checked primarily by steels. I would be against a ban.

 

In the future, Kyu says they will implement a way to adjust the hidden powers. To what extent, I am not sure. The meta changes slow. 6-8 months down the road if HP fire gengars become not rare I will be for the ban.

to bolster your point about gengar not being uber, even HP fire gengars have a massive flaw, in that they're outsped and ko'd by timid 31 speed gengars

 

my worry, though, is that steelix is the only really viable steel type that answers most (not all) gengar sets. In addition, it doesnt have reliable recovery so can be worn down pretty easily. Forretress can handle most if not all gengar attacks (bar HP fire) but what can it really do to gar? Rock slide? very prone to sub/disable. And metagross of course takes neutral damage from shadowball. Not to mention all of these pokes are severely hindered by WoW. Just food for thought

[Robofiend]

to bolster your point about gengar not being uber, even HP fire gengars have a massive flaw, in that they're outsped and ko'd by timid 31 speed gengars

 

my worry, though, is that steelix is the only really viable steel type that answers most (not all) gengar sets. In addition, it doesnt have reliable recovery so can be worn down pretty easily. Forretress can handle most if not all gengar attacks (bar HP fire) but what can it really do to gar? Rock slide? very prone to sub/disable. And metagross of course takes neutral damage from shadowball. Not to mention all of these pokes are severely hindered by WoW. Just food for thought

 

I've built teams that do a great job of handling Gengar, but get rolled by HP Fire Gar. With the impending easier access to HP (or so we've been led to believe) that's going to become a very relevant point to consider. Not being 31 speed sucks, but Gengar is a straight up nuke when steel types can no longer wall it - not that they're much good when Gengar can cripple all of them with WoW to begin with.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Robofiend

[Vaeldras]

I've built teams that do a great job of handling Gengar, but get rolled by HP Fire Gar. With the impending easier access to HP (or so we've been led to believe) that's going to become a very relevant point to consider. Not being 31 speed sucks, but Gengar is a straight up nuke when steel types can no longer wall it - not that they're much good when Gengar can cripple all of them with WoW to begin with.

 

I was thinking of a few combos too, mainly for scouting (switch to chansey, and then metagross to take a fpunch in case of sub for example).

Then i realized gengar can't really touch this:

 

252 Atk Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Porygon2: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

unless you meet a perish song/ pain split set, but psychic should make up for that.

Am i missing something?

[Robofiend]

 

I was thinking of a few combos too, mainly for scouting (switch to chansey, and then metagross to take a fpunch in case of sub for example).

Then i realized gengar can't really touch this:

 

252 Atk Gengar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Porygon2: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

unless you meet a perish song/ pain split set, but psychic should make up for that.

Am i missing something?

 

 

Well there's the part where Subgar can run Sludge/FP/Tbolt if it wants? Looks like your argument is definitely missing that.

[Vaeldras]

Well there's the part where Subgar can run Sludge/FP/Tbolt if it wants? Looks like your argument is definitely missing that.

 

Heck, didn't expect it to deal THAT much with sludgebomb. 

 

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Porygon2: 81-96 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Tbolt on the other hand

 

252 SpA Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Porygon2: 54-64 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 89% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery LOLNO

 

I wonder if i should run psychic on my porygon 2. probably not.

Too bad; again, i didn't expect sludge bomb to be that strong

[RysPicz]

Well I just played 4 rounds of Tag Team tournament taking the OU spot. Guess what? In every round I faced a Gengar. In one round, my own Gengar delivered a tough sweep through my opponent's team. I personally didn't have much problems with it, as it did not even have an opportunity to safely come in, but that was only because my whole team was built so it will be able to handle any kind of Gengar (to be honest, my most reliable counter for Gengar was a Crunch Steelix and I used it only because I read Gunthug's post here- thanks bro). I belieb it's way, wayy too centralizing. It can play so many roles, with a special sweeper being- for now- the most threatening. Sludge bomb destroys Ludi, pair it with Dug to cover P2/ Umb and maybe Chansey and you got a weapon that goes through whole tier with little, or no support. Sure you can pursuit trap it with something, but Gengar isn't just a sweeper set, and that pursuit poke might not appreciate WoW (unless it's Heraboss or Swellow).

 

Imo, it deserves at least a month-long suspect test. I haven't seen an OU team without Gengar yet, excluding few of my own.

[DrCraig]

Well I just played 4 rounds of Tag Team tournament taking the OU spot. Guess what? In every round I faced a Gengar. In one round, my own Gengar delivered a tough sweep through my opponent's team. I personally didn't have much problems with it, as it did not even have an opportunity to safely come in, but that was only because my whole team was built so it will be able to handle any kind of Gengar (to be honest, my most reliable counter for Gengar was a Crunch Steelix and I used it only because I read Gunthug's post here- thanks bro). I belieb it's way, wayy too centralizing. It can play so many roles, with a special sweeper being- for now- the most threatening. Sludge bomb destroys Ludi, pair it with Dug to cover P2/ Umb and maybe Chansey and you got a weapon that goes through whole tier with little, or no support. Sure you can pursuit trap it with something, but Gengar isn't just a sweeper set, and that pursuit poke might not appreciate WoW (unless it's Heraboss or Swellow).

 

Imo, it deserves at least a month-long suspect test. I haven't seen an OU team without Gengar yet, excluding few of my own.

Yea, noted. I like that you pointed out it's centralizing because I don't agree with people saying Gengar fits offensive uber characteristics. Gengar doesn't sweep the whole tier and versatility really doesn't make it uber, but it can be centralizing. Gengar can sweep, yes, but no set is really dominating. Each set is strong, but nothing warrants Gengar being labeled uber. However, I think the versatility Gengar could/is/will cause teams to be centralized to handle Gengar, which can't be done by running 1 counter alone. A suspect is an option, and probably best way to go.

[Arimanius]

Yea, noted. I like that you pointed out it's centralizing because I don't agree with people saying Gengar fits offensive uber characteristics. Gengar doesn't sweep the whole tier and versatility really doesn't make it uber, but it can be centralizing. Gengar can sweep, yes, but no set is really dominating. Each set is strong, but nothing warrants Gengar being labeled uber. However, I think the versatility Gengar could/is/will cause teams to be centralized to handle Gengar, which can't be done by running 1 counter alone. A suspect is an option, and probably best way to go.

This really summarize my opinion about gengar perfectly after last ou tournaments and team tag, I don't see it like something that can sweep a team easily, it needs support to do it and depending on set it can be easily walled