[Banned to BL2] Fearow

[DrCraig]

Regarding some people who want or wouldn't mind a test ban, I don't think that will prove much or is the 'best' solution. Fearow does not fit the uber offensive characteristics in my opinion, but its offense can, does, and will promote Fearow to be centralizing. But a test ban? I don't think so. I don't want test banning to become the norm. When discussions get too foggy, calling for a test ban should not be the talked of so soon. I also don't want to see test bans become more common because it just prolongs the tiering process if the test isn't necessary. Instead of testing Fearow, you can just plain analyze the current usage in the tier.
 
Moved from UU to NU                     Moved from NU to UU:
Gligar (4.10%)                                  Absol (4.48%)
Haunter (4.10%)
Misdreavus (4.10%)
Blastoise (3.36%)
Xatu (3.36%)
Flareon (2.61%)
Sneasel (2.61%)
Magmar (0.75%)
Fearow (0.75%)
Crobat (0.75%)

 

With the recent changes, I don't think there will be a rise in Fearow's counters for any other reason but Fearow. If Fearow is centralizing, we'll see it in the new usage, no need to test.

[LionKIng]

Regarding some people who want or wouldn't mind a test ban, I don't think that will prove much or is the 'best' solution. Fearow does not fit the uber offensive characteristics in my opinion, but its offense can, does, and will promote Fearow to be centralizing. But a test ban? I don't think so. I don't want test banning to become the norm. When discussions get too foggy, calling for a test ban should not be the talked of so soon. I also don't want to see test bans become more common because it just prolongs the tiering process if the test isn't necessary. Instead of testing Fearow, you can just plain analyze the current usage in the tier.
 
Moved from UU to NU                     Moved from NU to UU:
Gligar (4.10%)                                  Absol (4.48%)
Haunter (4.10%)
Misdreavus (4.10%)
Blastoise (3.36%)
Xatu (3.36%)
Flareon (2.61%)
Sneasel (2.61%)
Magmar (0.75%)
Fearow (0.75%)
Crobat (0.75%)

 

With the recent changes, I don't think there will be a rise in Fearow's counters for any other reason but Fearow. If Fearow is centralizing, we'll see it in the new usage, no need to test.

Nobody is talking about a test ban, its either team flat ban before the next NU tourney and team no ban untill we see how the tier shapes itself

 

regarding what you are saying about the rise of fearows counters only for fearow. Before these changes there was no spamming normal attacks that couldnt be handled by hitmontop and the only normal stab spammer was zangoose who appeared not being OP after a few tests even while there was a team flat ban vs a team no ban. Why use aggron if there is only 1 normal spammer that can be handled by other stuff and that carries brick break. Sure the only reason to bring aggron now is because of fearow but it can punish you for using fearow much more then in a meta with no fearow at all.

 

Anyways i still don't get the reason of this post, i think everyone here knows the changes occured because of the low stat usage of these pokemon and no one was talking about a test ban on fearow? how can you test ban something that hasnt even been tried yet lmao.

[DrCraig]

Nobody is talking about a test ban, its either team flat ban before the next NU tourney and team no ban untill we see how the tier shapes itself

 

regarding what you are saying about the rise of fearows counters only for fearow. Before these changes there was no spamming normal attacks that couldnt be handled by hitmontop and the only normal stab spammer was zangoose who appeared not being OP after a few tests even while there was a team flat ban vs a team no ban. Why use aggron if there is only 1 normal spammer that can be handled by other stuff and that carries brick break. Sure the only reason to bring aggron now is because of fearow but it can punish you for using fearow much more then in a meta with no fearow at all.

 

Anyways i still don't get the reason of this post, i think everyone here knows the changes occured because of the low stat usage of these pokemon and no one was talking about a test ban on fearow? how can you test ban something that hasnt even been tried yet lmao.

Multiple people were talking about testing, I guess I misinterpreted it? Regardless I'd like to not have test bans be the norm.

 

I think you're arguing with me and agreeing with me, but I'll restate myself because I don't understand what you said. Prior to Fearow coming down there was little normal spam because it was easily dealt with, like you said. The counters for normal spam such which people are pointing towards had low usage because they really just weren't viable. Now that Fearow is down, there is no reason for their usage to go up from anything but fearow. If it gets out of hand, Fearow could be centralizing.

 

I'm pretty sure you're just agreeing with me and trying to be a smartass

 

 

 

[gbwead]

 Now that Fearow is down, there is no reason for their usage to go up from anything but fearow. 

Well Aggron counters also Crobat, Xatu, Misdreavus, Grumpig, Haunter (with no HP fight), Girafarig (if no EQ), Ninetales, Mr.Mime, Kadabra (if no effective HP), and many others spatkers.

 

Edit: What will it take for Aggron to be viable? He seems like a decent pokemon in the current meta.

Edited August 14, 2015 by lamerb

[DrCraig]

Well Aggron counters also Crobat, Xatu, Misdreavus, Grumpig, Haunter (with no HP fight), Girafarig (if no EQ), Ninetales, Mr.Mime, Kadabra (if no effective HP), and many others spatkers.

I wanted to make an Aggron and I do think it is good. The usage implies it wasn't too useful. I'm not denying Aggron power, but it just wasn't useful. Now it has use mainly for Fearow, the other positives are just givens. This isn't the Aggron power discussion anyway.

Edited August 14, 2015 by DrCraig

[LionKIng]

Multiple people were talking about testing, I guess I misinterpreted it? Regardless I'd like to not have test bans be the norm.

 

I think you're arguing with me and agreeing with me, but I'll restate myself because I don't understand what you said. Prior to Fearow coming down there was little normal spam because it was easily dealt with, like you said. The counters for normal spam such which people are pointing towards had low usage because they really just weren't viable. Now that Fearow is down, there is no reason for their usage to go up from anything but fearow. If it gets out of hand, Fearow could be centralizing.

 

I'm pretty sure you're just agreeing with me and trying to be a smartass

 

 

 

Yes

well not my fault you arent clear enough on your posts. Someone came to me and ask to translate what Dr craig said on forums because they couldnt understand your mumbling about stuff that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
 

I know im a smartass and again , not my fault you arent clear in your arguments. You're as vague as the ocean in that post.

 

We know already that aggron wasnt used much before fearow has moved down, you're just stating the obvious. Are you trying to be a smart ass Dr.Craig?

 

Anyways lets add something usefull to the discussion. Like i said many times before it is really hard to put fearow on the play, it can be used a an op revenge killer but at what cost? getting walled by aggron? or other rock types? Its just like hitmonlee in UU before. It was the best physical hitter in the meta, we needed multiple things to counter JUST hitmonlee. Did it get banned for being too OP? No, we just brought 2 walls that could chek lee and other stuff. Sure fearow might be centralizing but i mean, its bound to happen that a pokemon is centralizing in every tier without being too OP for it. Specially trying to ban it before it has even been tested properly. Like i said before you either use stats and test stuff or you theorymon all tiers, a mix of both just doesnt work.

 

Unrelated to the topic but, I really think that usage stats isnt working for such a small scale of game. Its the way for simulators like showdown but they have a much bigger scale to work with then 32 people every week. Theorymon and testing stuff in the tiers would be such a better way like we did in the past making the tiers more balanced because stuff like porygon and forrestress wouldnt be OU because of usage. Thats just my point of view. 

[DrCraig]

well not my fault you arent clear enough on your posts. Someone came to me and ask to translate what Dr craig said on forums because they couldnt understand your mumbling about stuff that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
 

I know im a smartass and again , not my fault you arent clear in your arguments. You're as vague as the ocean in that post.

 

We know already that aggron wasnt used much before fearow has moved down, you're just stating the obvious. Are you trying to be a smart ass Dr.Craig?

Childish

 

Anyways lets add something usefull to the discussion. Like i said many times before it is really hard to put fearow on the play, it can be used a an op revenge killer but at what cost? getting walled by aggron? or other rock types? Its just like hitmonlee in UU before. It was the best physical hitter in the meta, we needed multiple things to counter JUST hitmonlee. Did it get banned for being too OP? No, we just brought 2 walls that could chek lee and other stuff. Sure fearow might be centralizing but i mean, its bound to happen that a pokemon is centralizing in every tier without being too OP for it. Specially trying to ban it before it has even been tested properly. Like i said before you either use stats and test stuff or you theorymon all tiers, a mix of both just doesnt work.

 

Unrelated to the topic but, I really think that usage stats isnt working for such a small scale of game. Its the way for simulators like showdown but they have a much bigger scale to work with then 32 people every week. Theorymon and testing stuff in the tiers would be such a better way like we did in the past making the tiers more balanced because stuff like porygon and forrestress wouldnt be OU because of usage. Thats just my point of view. 

I don't agree with comparing Hitmonlee to Fearow. Hitmonlee's 'counters' were already viable in the metagame and still are right now where Hitmonlee isn't even the main powerhouse. Exeggutor, Vileplume, Altaria, Slowking, etc. all are much more useful in their tier, always have been and always will be.

 

"trying to ban it before it has even been tested properly"

Just because the discussion thread was posted early, doesn't make it a bad thing. It's a discussion.

 

Cradily, Armaldo, Solrock, Aggron and Golem were hurt pretty bad by Blastoise's move down and I think that's what the problem is. Fearow's counter are semi-useful, but not with Blastoise around now also. Blastoise being moved down with Fearow was bad news. Neither of them want to go though :P We'll see

 

Unrelated to the topic but, I really think that usage stats isnt working for such a small scale of game. Its the way for simulators like showdown but they have a much bigger scale to work with then 32 people every week. Theorymon and testing stuff in the tiers would be such a better way like we did in the past making the tiers more balanced because stuff like porygon and forrestress wouldnt be OU because of usage. Thats just my point of view. 

I liked the strength-based tiering, but the usage-based tiering came at a convenient time because the strengh-based meta was ugly. NU was really ugly, and UU was getting pretty stale even though it was probably in its prime. The moves every 2 months might be disrupting initially, but the goal is that that will all be smoothed at over time. It's too late to go back to a strengh-based tiering and it would look pretty stupid if we did, even if it was 'for the best' or something. I don't think the usage is working the best it could, but it's been doing a pretty damn good job at developing 3 full tiers, rather than 2 tiers and a crappy tag along.

Edited August 14, 2015 by DrCraig

[LionKIng]

 

I don't agree with comparing Hitmonlee to Fearow. Hitmonlee's 'counters' were already viable in the metagame and still are right now where Hitmonlee isn't even the main powerhouse. Exeggutor, Vileplume, Altaria, Slowking, etc. all are much more useful in their tier, always have been and always will be.

 

"trying to ban it before it has even been tested properly"

Just because the discussion thread was posted early, doesn't make it a bad thing. It's a discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

Correct me if im wrong, but before Choice band came out and hitmonlee became viable as a wrecking force that centralized UU for so long, plume was a sp def wall and was converted to being a def wall to chek hitmonlees super power and at that time hitmonlee didnt even have blaze kick. Also, before hoen came out exegcutor, altaria, slowking were not UU or didnt exist. My reference was for when hitmonlee waas in his prime of demolition on every UU team and so little counter for him that you had to transform a sp def wall named villeplume into a def wall to chek super power and have a reliable recover move. So if you wanna talk centralizing, hitmonlee was the main event for the description centralizing. Also, im pretty sure that no one uses bold exegcutor anymore, doesnt use def wall altaria anymore, just because slowking came down and just completly walls hitmonlee and makes it unviable. So the comparaison between fearow and hitmonlee can be done since both pokemons were centralizing at one point and people had to come up with new and creative ways to chek hitmonlee in the past. And even after they had those cheks for hitmonlee it didnt matter because a match of pokemon is not a 1 vs 1 but a 6 vs 6. Its not based on only 1 pokemon but on how well you can team build to not get rekt by the dominant forces in the tier because dominant forces will always happen in all tiers. Just gotta deal with them and then ,if its too easy to sweep with them after a while of testing,yes looking at you dragonite, you ban it. That simple.

Edited August 14, 2015 by LionKIng

[Robofiend]

 

Multiple people were talking about testing, I guess I misinterpreted it? Regardless I'd like to not have test bans be the norm.

 

Testing as in "lets see if its 2gud"

 

Also Gunthug/K9 had the most salient point of the discussion so far: even with HP being changed to entirely special, it's still viable to run Ground, which says a lot about how good Fearow is.

[gbwead]

Also Gunthug/K9 had the most salient point of the discussion so far: even with HP being changed to entirely special, it's still viable to run Ground, which says a lot about how good Fearow is.

I guess HP is viableish. I assume if you play with HP you have the nature Hasty or Naive. In both cases, this makes Fearow even more frail than before.

HP is very situational, it could work on really specific targets but usually it is pretty much a dead move (it can't ohko anything ...)

 

We come to a point where you can't run Double-Edge, Return, Pursuit, Quick Attack, Steel Wing, Drill Peck, HP grass and HP ground. A well constructed team will always have a check for Fearow regardless of the moveset.

[KaynineXL]

I guess HP is viableish. I assume if you play with HP you have the nature Hasty or Naive. In both cases, this makes Fearow even more frail than before.

HP is very situational, it could work on really specific targets but usually it is pretty much a dead move (it can't ohko anything ...)

 

We come to a point where you can't run Double-Edge, Return, Pursuit, Quick Attack, Steel Wing, Drill Peck, HP grass and HP ground. A well constructed team will always have a check for Fearow regardless of the moveset.

No point in hasty or naive as its 2hko anyway with no invest.

[gbwead]

No point in hasty or naive as its 2hko anyway with no invest.

Oh ok thanks, that is pretty cool. 

 

Still if Fearow is forced to play a dead move like a weak HP or to some degree Steel Wing, it is hard to see him as uber. (especially since he is holding a Choice Band)

Edited August 14, 2015 by lamerb

[KaynineXL]

Oh ok thanks, that is pretty cool. 

 

Still if Fearow is forced to play a dead move like a weak HP or to some degree Steel Wing, it is hard to see him as uber. (especially since he is holding a Choice Band)

Honestly. I think Aggron will be the go to go to stop Fearow. It's probably the most consistent and viable option.

We'll probably see a lot of Aggron so if you run like Drill Peck, DE, Steel Wing, HP Ground you're golden.

Sure you lose QA, but is it really that important? You could just put a priority move on another poke.

 

 

EDIT:

You say it's a dead move.. but when this "dead move" is 2hkoing the biggest counter, you know there is a problem.

Edited August 14, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Robofiend]

Oh ok thanks, that is pretty cool. 

 

Still if Fearow is forced to play a dead move like a weak HP or to some degree Steel Wing, it is hard to see him as uber. (especially since he is holding a Choice Band)

 

It's not a "dead move" if it covers your most viable counter, lol

[gbwead]

I guess I did not express myself very well. I consider Hidden Power a dead move, because it works on one pokemon in the tier.

 

You could argue that HP fire on Zam is only there to deal with one pokemon (scizor), but there are some major differences:

 

1. Hidden Power on Fearow is at best a 2 HKO. Aggron/Kabutops do OHKO Fearow in return though. When Zam/Magneton use HP to counter a specific pokemon, they usually take him out in 1 hit and they have to take him out in one hit otherwise they die.
2. Hidden Power on Fearow is weak, especially with jolly nature. It is extremely situational and completly worthless agaisnt the rest of the tier. In OU, if magneton is facing a Ludicolo with 10% hit points, he doesn't have to do thunderbolt to kill ludicolo: he can simply use Hidden Power and this way he could potentially prevent Jolteon from swiching in with volt absorb. If Fearow is against a 10% hit points Aggron, he could end up making a fatal mistake. With no spatk, by using hidden power, he also makes himself vulnerable agaisnt the rest fo the tier.
3. Once again, Choice Band is not ideal in combination with a dead move situational move like Hidden Power. Steel Wing at least can do some shitty neutral damage agaisnt the rest of the tier, but Hidden Power is no damage at all.

[DrCraig]

Fearow was such a force in the prior meta with Hp Ground that I don't know how it would be a dead move. It is doing basically the same it did prior.

[gbwead]

Fearow was such a force in the prior meta with Hp Ground that I don't know how it would be a dead move. It is doing basically the same it did prior.

Well HP ground is special now, that changes everything...

 

A typical jolly Fearow at lvl 50 will have 142 atk (+ choice band) and 72 spatk. It is not doing the same as before!!!!

I don't think I need to do calcs to prove what I am saying.

Edited August 14, 2015 by lamerb

[DoubleJ]

Well HP ground is special now, that changes everything...

 

A typical jolly Fearow at lvl 50 will have 142 atk (+ choice band) and 72 spatk. It is not doing the same as before!!!!

I don't think I need to do calcs to prove what I am saying.

 

Gen 4+ Mechanics with Special HP Ground

0- SpA Fearow Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 96-116 (65.7 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Gen 3 Mechanics with Physical HP Ground

Choice Band Fearow Hidden Power Ground vs. Aggron: 115-136 (78.7 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[gbwead]

Gen 4+ Mechanics with Special HP Ground

0- SpA Fearow Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 96-116 (65.7 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Gen 3 Mechanics with Physical HP Ground

Choice Band Fearow Hidden Power Ground vs. Aggron: 115-136 (78.7 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the exception...

This is a situational move that works only for Aggron and it is a dead move when facing the rest of the tier.

[LionKIng]

 

Gen 4+ Mechanics with Special HP Ground

0- SpA Fearow Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 96-116 (65.7 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Gen 3 Mechanics with Physical HP Ground

Choice Band Fearow Hidden Power Ground vs. Aggron: 115-136 (78.7 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

ok so running hp ground for aggron leaves you missing 2 of these moves : steel wing, pursuit or quick attack. Imo i don't think its worth it cuz it makes you get walled by so many other stuff just to cover 1 pokemon.

Edited August 14, 2015 by LionKIng

[DoubleJ]

This is the exception...

This is a situational move that works only for Aggron and it is a dead move when facing the rest of the tier.

 

I thought we made it clear earlier that the only reason to be running this is for Aggron anyway. 

[gbwead]

I thought we made it clear earlier that the only reason to be running this is for Aggron anyway. 

I am glad we agree lol.

This is quite awful since that move doesn't even kill Aggron in 1 hit.

[KaynineXL]

I am glad we agree lol.

This is quite awful since that move doesn't even kill Aggron in 1 hit.

quite awful?

 

It's still 2hkoing the biggest counter to Fearow. Once you hit it once, sure it can switch out... But then Aggron can no longer switch in safely and they have nothing for Fearow.

 

Especially if Aggron becomes really popular, which I think it will.

[gbwead]

quite awful?

 

It's still 2hkoing the biggest counter to Fearow. Once you hit it once, sure it can switch out... But then Aggron can no longer switch in safely and they have nothing for Fearow.

 

Especially if Aggron becomes really popular, which I think it will.

With this logic, I could say all kind of stupid stuff.

 

Example: Breloom can counter Exeggutor with Hidden Power Bug or Swellow can counter Rhydon with Hidden Power Grass.

 

Every pokemon can get hidden power, there is nothing new there. I don't consider it a valid argument on a physical attacker with mediocre spatk.

Edited August 14, 2015 by lamerb

[DoubleJ]

With this logic, I could say all kind of stupid stuff.

 

Example: Breloom can counter Exeggutor with Hidden Power Bug or Swellow can counter Rhydon with Hidden Power Grass.

 

Every pokemon can get hidden power, there is nothing new there. I don't consider it a valid argument on a physical attacker with mediocre spatk.

 

It's a pretty legit argument imo. Exact same logic as Tyranitar or Salamence running HP Grass to topple Swampert, or Metagross to use HP Fire to break Forretress. 

 

A diverse meta forces OP threats to venture out of their comfort zone to beat their counters. The examples you provided are all something we should consider when thinking "outside of the box" for team building.