[NU Discussion] Blastoise

[gbwead]

 

Common Sets (credit to DrCraig for providing the sets)

 

Physical Wall Toise

Item: Leftovers

Nature: Bold

Ability: Torrent

EVs: 252 HP / 252 DEF / 4 SDEF  **Blastoise is fast enough to warrant significant speed-creeps

·         Surf

·         Rest

·         Ice Beam / Toxic / Rapid Spin / Roar / Haze / Yawn / Counter

·         Toxic / Rapid Spin / Roar / Haze / Yawn / Counter

Quake Toise

Item: Leftovers

Nature: Relaxed

Ability: Torrent

EVs: 252 HP / 252 DEF / 4 SDEF  **Blastoise is fast enough to warrant significant speed-creeps, even with Relaxed nature

·         Surf / Ice Beam

·         Earthquake

·         Rest

·         Toxic / Rapid Spin / Roar / Haze / Yawn / Counter

Mirror Coat Toise

Item: Leftovers

Nature: Calm / Sassy

Ability: Torrent

EVs: 252 HP / Mixed DEF & SDEF **Toise's high base DEF and SDEF would be mixed or 252SDEF, and is again able to speed-creep

·         Mirror Coat

·         Surf

·         Rest

·         Ice Beam / Earthquake / Toxic / Rapid Spin / Roar / Haze / Yawn / Counter

 

Overview

 

Great base stats, great bulk, great typing, great movepool, Blastoise is an overall beast and it is hard to believe he is in NU right now.

This pokemon versability seems unmatched in the tier. Is there anything Blastoise can’t do?

 

With supportive moves like Rapid Spin, Roar, Haze, Yawn, Mirror Coat and Counter, Blastoise can be an excellent addition to a lot of teams.

 

The combination of physical attacks (Return, Earthquake, Focus Punch, Bite, Iron Tail, Waterfall and Ice Punch) with special attacks (Surf, Ice Beam, Signal Beam and Hidden Power) gives Blastoise a dangerous coverage. Tangela is scared of the potential Ice Beam while Ampharos fears the potential Earthquake.

 

Blastoise’s defensive capabilities are completely insane which makes him a hard to break defensive pivot. Despite having no reliable recovery move beside Rest, Blastoise can put a lot of pressure on the opponent when paired with Heal Bell support.

 

With all those options in mind, it is unfortunate that Blastoise can only play with 4 move slots. There is no way for Blastoise to cover all its basis which is why scouting is imperative when facing him.

 

The NU council would like to get the community input on this pokemon. 

 

[Kizhaz]

I'll be honest, I havent been online to even play NU since the changes and I can see Blastoise as being the go to physical wall. Only thing hitmon has over it is the priority, otherwise Blastoise can take the hits better than top can even after the intimidate. However with Blastoise we also got alot of strong hitters like Flareon and Fearow, who's best stop is in the form of this turtle. I can't see Blastoise being too hard to break, especially with pokemon like Ampharos ans pikachu about, even tbolt from the spooky levitating ghosts.

[Gunthug]

here's the problem w/stoise, and it was the first thing I thought when it came down: If it's a problem, it won't be uber - it'll be unhealthy. I'll be keeping a close eye on usage to see if my suspicion is true

[KaynineXL]

At first I thought it would be too good because the insane bulk in both def and sp def.

After playing against it a few times, I don't think it's ban worthy. It's good, definitely, but I don't think ban worthy.

It does have a lot of bulk, but I don't see it as a threat.

 

I'v not played too much NU so I'm still figuring it out. Right now I don't think so.. but we'll see.

[Robofiend]

So far I've found Blastoise really annoying to play against. With EQ for Ampharos, Surf to threaten out Hitmontop and other walls, and Ice Beam/Toxic to keep Grass types from walking all over it, it can be hard to find a solid switch in. Roselia works and Golduck/Poliwrath can win if they dodge the Toxic upon switching in.. Overall, its an incredibly bulky pokemon that functions well as a phaser and provides tons of support against walls like Solrock, Gligar while also checking some of the ties sweepers like Scyther and Armaldo.

 

That said, it's not perfect: Toxic can be a waste of a moveslot, it lacks recovery outside of Rest and if your opponent does have a Roselia it's going to be an uphill battle to beat the turtle... I'd say it's not defensively Uber, but has the capability to become pretty overcentralizing.

[DrCraig]

here's the problem w/stoise, and it was the first thing I thought when it came down: If it's a problem, it won't be uber - it'll be unhealthy. I'll be keeping a close eye on usage to see if my suspicion is true

Agreeing with you here. Blastoise really sucks with rest and that 4mss. I can't see it fitting an uber.

[DoubleJ]

Honestly, the only thing missing from this nu meta and the old uu meta is vileplume. Looking at everything I really can't see toise doing anything other than checking some powerful physical sets. Most of the special attackers we have handle toise quite easily and if it's forced to run eq, it's probably dropping ice beam. Oh baby.

I think it adds a good amount of diversity and without a good wish passer in the tier it's gonna be limited.

[gbwead]

without a good wish passer in the tier it's gonna be limited.

Flareon hates you right now.

[DoubleJ]

Flareon hates you right now.

 

I mean we could say we have Xatu as well, but the difference between a quality synergistic wish passer and those too, is that they have more than one weakness which is shared across the tier. When Chansey or Blissey were passing wishes, the most common attack being thrown at them were fighting moves which were easily resisted. Xatu and Flareon though have a greater number of weaknesses that aren't as resisted throughout the tier. I know I wouldn't want to be Wish Passing from Xatu when Tbolts and Ice Beams are raining down on me left and right, or from Flareon when EQs and Rock Slides are coming in. 

[Gunthug]

I mean we could say we have Xatu as well, but the difference between a quality synergistic wish passer and those too, is that they have more than one weakness which is shared across the tier. When Chansey or Blissey were passing wishes, the most common attack being thrown at them were fighting moves which were easily resisted. Xatu and Flareon though have a greater number of weaknesses that aren't as resisted throughout the tier. I know I wouldn't want to be Wish Passing from Xatu when Tbolts and Ice Beams are raining down on me left and right, or from Flareon when EQs and Rock Slides are coming in. 

I dunno, I totally see your point about xatu/flareon not being brainless wish passers like chansey/to an extent vaporeon were - but flareon actually has solid synergy with blastoise to pass it wishes. Xatu yea i dk about that working but i can definitely see a specially bulky flareon passing wishes effectively in NU, with a blastoise that can shrug off eq/rock slides like its nothing.

 

What does this say about stoise's health? I dk, I think we can theorymon stoise to death but we'll really only learn about its impact through actual testing - thats just the kind of poke stoise is imo

[OldKeith]

Nobody mentioning an offensive Water Spout set? I guess not any good without specs or scarf.

 

Blastoise is a defensive beast and it was dominant in UU in the pre-CB era. What made it bad now is the lack of a recovery move beside rest, the fact that physical moves can now be super-effective on it, namely thunder punch, and the low offensive stats in general.

 

A notable full counter to Blastoise is Roselia, which absorbs Toxics, Surfs and Ice Beams really well. Other grass types also scare Blastoise out, and so does Ampharos. I cannot imagine Blastoise becoming too dominant, considering there are so many better options with recovery out there. But time will tell.

[Robofiend]

Nobody mentioning an offensive Water Spout set? I guess not any good without specs or scarf.

 

Blastoise is a defensive beast and it was dominant in UU in the pre-CB era. What made it bad now is the lack of a recovery move beside rest, the fact that physical moves can now be super-effective on it, namely thunder punch, and the low offensive stats in general.

 

A notable full counter to Blastoise is Roselia, which absorbs Toxics, Surfs and Ice Beams really well. Other grass types also scare Blastoise out, and so does Ampharos. I cannot imagine Blastoise becoming too dominant, considering there are so many better options with recovery out there. But time will tell.

 

Rosy's pretty.. just ok from what I've seen. It lets Grumpig into play, which is a huge flaw and if Aggron becomes more viable as the Fearow lovers are predicting then it'll have even more trouble.

[gbwead]

With the upcoming NU tournament (https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/55820-friday-night-nu-21st-august/#entry1114537), do you guys have any more thoughts on Blastoise's place in NU? Will he turn out to be too strong for the tier?

[Robofiend]

With the upcoming NU tournament (https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/55820-friday-night-nu-21st-august/#entry1114537), do you guys have any more thoughts on Blastoise's place in NU? Will he turn out to be too strong for the tier?

 

Realistically Fearow will be suspected first. I don't know if it'll be "too strong" so much as "too centralizing".

[Arimanius]

Yeah fearow will be centralizing but blastoise is replaceable I think, there are pokes that have great sinergy with it and could form a great core though, we'll see. I'm hype about todays nu

[DoubleJ]

In my opinion, Blastoise is simply a glorified pivot. It can absorb a wide variety of attacks, but has little offense outside of Toxic spam. The unfortunate thing about Blastoise is that it is easily supported, since it can't be trapped and any special wall can take most of the hits sent its way (looking at you Ampharos). A sensible strategy to eliminate Blastoise is to spam Toxic, but unfortunately there is a wide variety of clerics in this tier and Blastoise can heal itself with Rest as well. Choice Band STAB attacks make it easier to beat Blastoise, but there are few physical NU pokemon that can even 2HKO Toise at full health. While it is a nuisance, I really can't justify it being banned right now. If it's usage continues to rise or if it becomes centralizing, then I would suggest banning it under the "Uncompetitive Support" characteristic, but in the mean time I feel we just need to take a backseat to NU and see how it develops over the course of a couple more tournaments. 

[KaynineXL]

I honestly agree with JJ. I think Ampharos.. meh sure it might be, I'm not decided. Cradily 100%. Grumpig possibly. Blastoise no. It pretty much does the exact same as many other walls, it's just got a bit more bulk than the usual but nothing the NU offence threat can't handle. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by KaynineXL

[CaptainGrey]

So what with blastoise now ampha is ban? 

[Kizhaz]

So what with blastoise now ampha is ban?

I doubt it will last long, Tropius is prob the most threatening phys grass type and all it takes is 1 ice beam to the banana to bruise it

[Winterclaw]

So what with blastoise now ampha is ban? 

 

 Ampharos banned with 53.53 usage and there are alot pokemons to handle ampharos. But blastoise, ppl run specific pokemons just for this bigfat turtle. Ampharos had this much usage beacuse ppl want to counter blastoise in my opinion.

 

0- Atk Blastoise Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos: 90-106 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers

recovery

 

0 SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 93-111 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 62-74 (16.1 - 19.2%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

While ampharos will do; 

 

0 SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blastoise: 152-182 (41.9 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Banning them both would be wise decision not only ampharos beacuse 53.53% usage.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Winterclaw

[KaynineXL]

Blastoise is fine. Now Ampharos is gone, Pikachu might come out a little more. Let's just put it this way.. No Blastoise will want to take a Volt Tackle.

[Winterclaw]

Blastoise is fine. Now Ampharos is gone, Pikachu might come out a little more. Let's just put it this way.. No Blastoise will want to take a Volt Tackle.

 

Yea sure, now ppl will run other specific pokemon in their team just to counter blastoise.

 

JOLLY 252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 330-390 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

I doubt ppl will run Bold with 252def just to hope not being OHKO volt tackle.

 

But then what, are we gonna see pikachu ban if she reach over 50% usage?

 

PS: I was waiting Toise ban, not ampharos :/

Edited October 16, 2015 by Winterclaw

[KaynineXL]

Yea sure, now ppl will run other specific pokemon in their team just to counter blastoise.

 

JOLLY 252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 330-390 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

I doubt ppl will run Bold with 252def just to hope not being OHKO volt tackle.

 

But then what, are we gonna see pikachu ban if she reach over 50% usage?

 

PS: I was waiting Toise ban, not ampharos :/

I run Bold/Relaxed with 252 def

[felix]

Ampharos could fit nice roles, but its offensive moves are pretty bad, you almost always need support with it and we have some pokes that could answer to ampharos.

 

I always though Blastoise was scarier, mostly offensive pokes can't kill Blastoise in one shot, even a setup poke isn't guaranted since it can run haze and blastoise could also run sleep talk, so it can always be troubling to deal with it.

 

I don't know why you guys always say that Rest is bad, it recover any status ailment, you are not able to stall Blastoise and it pretty much can stay alive for two hits and rest again.

 

I think blastoise is unhealthy, but I would wait a couple of tournaments and see what the tier will be without ampharos before a decision

Edited October 16, 2015 by felix

[Noad]

Blastoise has been moved out of NU due to it's usage in the UU tier being above the cut off point. I will close this thread for now as the Tier Council may want to focus attention on other Pokemon currently still in NU or that were recently moved there. 

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/58615-tierlist-changes-by-usage-08112015/