[OU Discussion] Arena Trap/Dugtrio (Dugtrio Banned to Ubers)

[Kizhaz]

wow nobody wants to take advantage of sandstorm Dugtrio.

[Vaeldras]

wow nobody wants to take advantage of sandstorm Dugtrio.

 

ye i'm gonna pass

[Impulseeee]

I got a question: why are abilities now eligible for bans or even being talked about, but I remember in a galaxy far far away this was off topic because of what could from it. Aka the can of worms that can follow after it. (Natural cure, intimidate, clear body) anything that can be abused. I'm not against a dugtrio ban but I'm playing devils advocate of what could from this.

Another question: when is theorymoning become viable in discussing bans? Because again I remember along time ago I was once bashed for theorymoning but over the last couple bans including snorlax blissey gengar chancey (unsure of ban) and now an ability everything is theorymoning of what the meta will look like after it.



I am okay with both questions above and the way things are being done now, but I often wonder why now it's okay? Maybe because of the amount of ubers we have?

And the last question: why is dugtrio or this ability now an issue and it wasn't with blissey or snorlax and it could serve the same purpose imo? If it wasn't an issue then and could have been is it simply that the community adapted and isn't that the whole purpose?

[OrangeManiac]

I got a question: why are abilities now eligible for bans or even being talked about, but I remember in a galaxy far far away this was off topic because of what could from it. Aka the can of worms that can follow after it. (Natural cure, intimidate, clear body) anything that can be abused. I'm not against a dugtrio ban but I'm playing devils advocate of what could from this.

 

 

Another question: when is theorymoning become viable in discussing bans? Because again I remember along time ago I was once bashed for theorymoning but over the last couple bans including snorlax blissey gengar chancey (unsure of ban) and now an ability everything is theorymoning of what the meta will look like after it.



I am okay with both questions above and the way things are being done now, but I often wonder why now it's okay? Maybe because of the amount of ubers we have?

And the last question: why is dugtrio or this ability now an issue and it wasn't with blissey or snorlax and it could serve the same purpose imo? If it wasn't an issue then and could have been is it simply that the community adapted and isn't that the whole purpose?

 

As the OP states, the problem isn't trapping walls - it's trapping the offensive Pokemon in this tier, namely Heracross, Metagross, Ursaring, Blaziken, Medicham while needing absolutely no effort to do that. Once one of these Pokemon makes something faint Dugtrio gets a free turn to kill these Pokemon.  After trapping these Pokemon the walls basically become unbreakable.  Blissey and Snorlax has nothing to do about it.

 

What comes to theorymon, Dugtrio discussion isn't really "theorymon". You can undisputedly argue how Dugtrio traps Pokemon because there's no prediction involved. What comes to other Pokemon theorymon, you can put plenty of calcs and something might look really intimidating but if no one is using that x Pokemon there's clearly some flaws to it.

 

Arena Trap isn't getting discussed because "it's the best ability, pls ban", it's because it makes the OU metagame a horrible experience. As Diglett can do basically the same as Dugtrio, it was thought to be an easier thing to focus on because the lack of prediction is the problem with taking those Pokemon and Arena Trap is an uncompetitive ability. We're not having Shadow Tag or Magnet Pull discussions because they're not making OU a less enjoyable metagame.

[Impulseeee]

As the OP states, the problem isn't trapping walls - it's trapping the offensive Pokemon in this tier, namely Heracross, Metagross, Ursaring, Blaziken, Medicham while needing absolutely no effort to do that. Once one of these Pokemon makes something faint Dugtrio gets a free turn to kill these Pokemon. After trapping these Pokemon the walls basically become unbreakable. Blissey and Snorlax has nothing to do about it.

What comes to theorymon, Dugtrio discussion isn't really "theorymon". You can undisputedly argue how Dugtrio traps Pokemon because there's no prediction involved. What comes to other Pokemon theorymon, you can put plenty of calcs and something might look really intimidating but if no one is using that x Pokemon there's clearly some flaws to it.

Arena Trap isn't getting discussed because "it's the best ability, pls ban", it's because it makes the OU metagame a horrible experience. As Diglett can do basically the same as Dugtrio, it was thought to be an easier thing to focus on because the lack of prediction is the problem with taking those Pokemon and Arena Trap is an uncompetitive ability. We're not having Shadow Tag or Magnet Pull discussions because they're not making OU a less enjoyable metagame.

I get that it is about the offensive Pokemon you listed above. But my point is that people now have learned to adapt to sacrifice chancey so they can take out the said above offensive Pokemon. Which then brings me to snorlax and blissey. Chancey and porygon have replaced both of them and dugtrio can arguably do the same to them as it can to snorlax and blissey. So why is it now an issue all of the sudden? The same type of play style of sacrificing to swap could have still been done then. What changed?

And the ability discussion is literally a point of view of what is viable and not. Your saying trapping is unhealthy for ou but magnet pool does the same thing just to different poke. Why is this not an issue? Because skarmory and foretress usually cannot be used as a solely defensive wall anymore. It has to be used in a core. The issue with AT is that blissey and porygon the two main special walls used not in a special core get taken out in the process.

I can argue that magnet pool is unhealthy because it can trap a CB metagross and end it there. It is the same principal but your just ignoring one case of a scenario that is not blown full force yet.

I'm not saying it's healthy I agree that what dugtrio does is bad. But I'm just saying I think a case can be made about natural cure magnet pool etc if we stumble down that path. And then you can say why not just ban moves like curse and dd on certain pokes? Edited December 17, 2015 by Impulseeee

[Vaeldras]

I get that it is about the offensive Pokemon you listed above. But my point is that people now have learned to adapt to sacrifice chancey so they can take out the said above offensive Pokemon. Which then brings me to snorlax and blissey. Chancey and porygon have replaced both of them and dugtrio can arguably do the same to them as it can to snorlax and blissey. So why is it now an issue all of the sudden? The same type of play style of sacrificing to swap could have still been done then. What changed?

 

before gengar got banned dugtrio had quite a low usage and chansey wasn't nearly as relevant (i remember some people making fun of me for using it)

the council didn't want to ban dugtrio because back then it had little to no impact on the metagame

And the ability discussion is literally a point of view of what is viable and not. Your saying trapping is unhealthy for ou but magnet pool does the same thing just to different poke. Why is this not an issue? Because skarmory and foretress usually cannot be used as a solely defensive wall anymore. It has to be used in a core. The issue with AT is that blissey and porygon the two main special walls used not in a special core get taken out in the process.

 

The problem isn't trapping itself, it's how dugtrio affects the meta.

Also trapping with magneton is quite a bit different but again trapping itself is not the problem at hand.

 

I'm not saying it's healthy I agree that what dugtrio does is bad. But I'm just saying I think a case can be made about natural cure magnet pool etc if we stumble down that path. And then you can say why not just ban moves like curse and dd on certain pokes?

 

I'm not quite sure why they made an arena trap thread either, when trapinch is clearly not a problem, you have a point.

I'd also like to know how they're gonna handle this ban

[Impulseeee]

I get that it is about the offensive Pokemon you listed above. But my point is that people now have learned to adapt to sacrifice chancey so they can take out the said above offensive Pokemon. Which then brings me to snorlax and blissey. Chancey and porygon have replaced both of them and dugtrio can arguably do the same to them as it can to snorlax and blissey. So why is it now an issue all of the sudden? The same type of play style of sacrificing to swap could have still been done then. What changed?

before gengar got banned dugtrio had quite a low usage and chansey wasn't nearly as relevant (i remember some people making fun of me for using it)
the council didn't want to ban dugtrio because back then it had little to no impact on the metagame
And the ability discussion is literally a point of view of what is viable and not. Your saying trapping is unhealthy for ou but magnet pool does the same thing just to different poke. Why is this not an issue? Because skarmory and foretress usually cannot be used as a solely defensive wall anymore. It has to be used in a core. The issue with AT is that blissey and porygon the two main special walls used not in a special core get taken out in the process.

The problem isn't trapping itself, it's how dugtrio affects the meta.
Also trapping with magneton is quite a bit different but again trapping itself is not the problem at hand.

I'm not saying it's healthy I agree that what dugtrio does is bad. But I'm just saying I think a case can be made about natural cure magnet pool etc if we stumble down that path. And then you can say why not just ban moves like curse and dd on certain pokes?

I'm not quite sure why they made an arena trap thread either, when trapinch is clearly not a problem, you have a point.
I'd also like to know how they're gonna handle this ban

I think the main problem here is the council is being reactive instead of proactive so to speak. And I guess it's not just the council it's the community in general. Having the thought process of "it's not an issue now" let's ignore it doesn't warrant a ban to me is just not cutting it and it leads to situations like this.

IMO trapping is the issue because without it dugtrio wouldn't even be talked about. Dugtrio would be worthless without the trapping ability. And agreed magnet pull is different but that's just because of the amount of pokes it actually effects.

For the longest time dugyton has been a play style for players and it can also be risky. Is it competitive? Imo no because it takes out the one competitive aspect of knowing how to win instead of just using one strategy and getting lucky on the other persons team build.

And I feel like this topic of abilities ban can start being used like the term centralizing and unhealthiness when you can throw those words around because they are mainly based off of pov.

I could argue ban two moves dragon claw and curse and we could have a whole tier back if we're going the route of breaking a poke into abilities moves etc. because what is the difference between banning one part of that Pokemon on that certain Pokemon and not the other. It then turns into what people actually want the ou tier to look like instead of what the competitive atmosphere should look like.

Instead of looking at AT I would suggest to start looking at certain moves that could reshape everything and give us a new start that could make ou actually fun again. Because if I am wrong is any dragon overally overpowered without dclaw? Or is snorlax op without curse? IMO I think that's where the community should start looking if an ability is now bannable.

[Vaeldras]

I think the main problem here is the council is being reactive instead of proactive so to speak. And I guess it's not just the council it's the community in general. Having the thought process of "it's not an issue now" let's ignore it doesn't warrant a ban to me is just not cutting it and it leads to situations like this.

IMO trapping is the issue because without it dugtrio wouldn't even be talked about. Dugtrio would be worthless without the trapping ability. And agreed magnet pull is different but that's just because of the amount of pokes it actually effects.

For the longest time dugyton has been a play style for players and it can also be risky. Is it competitive? Imo no because it takes out the one competitive aspect of knowing how to win instead of just using one strategy and getting lucky on the other persons team build.

And I feel like this topic of abilities ban can start being used like the term centralizing and unhealthiness when you can throw those words around because they are mainly based off of pov.

I could argue ban two moves dragon claw and curse and we could have a whole tier back if we're going the route of breaking a poke into abilities moves etc. because what is the difference between banning one part of that Pokemon on that certain Pokemon and not the other. It then turns into what people actually want the ou tier to look like instead of what the competitive atmosphere should look like.

Instead of looking at AT I would suggest to start looking at certain moves that could reshape everything and give us a new start that could make ou actually fun again. Because if I am wrong is any dragon overally overpowered without dclaw? Or is snorlax op without curse? IMO I think that's where the community should start looking if an ability is now bannable.

 

I mean, you can't ban something because you assume it could become a threat, you gotta let it become a threat first.

The discussion used to be on how dugtrio affects the meta rather than how uncompetitive it is, but seeing how diglett works the same way and trapinch was thrown in for some reason they made things a bit messy.

Would it make any difference if they just banned diglett and trio, those two and trapinch or just the ability? i doubt it.

Anyway let's not go into complex bans again, that's both off topic and wasted time.

I'd also like to know what the council is trying to do atm, so i'll just wait for an in depth explanation

[Impulseeee]

I mean, you can't ban something because you assume it could become a threat, you gotta let it become a threat first.
The discussion used to be on how dugtrio affects the meta rather than how uncompetitive it is, but seeing how diglett works the same way and trapinch was thrown in for some reason they made things a bit messy.
Would it make any difference if they just banned diglett and trio, those two and trapinch or just the ability? i doubt it.
Anyway let's not go into complex bans again, that's both off topic and wasted time.
I'd also like to know what the council is trying to do atm, so i'll just wait for an in depth explanation

Isn't banning an ability a complex ban? Or is that not on the same path?

And what I mean about it becoming a threat is the ability AT. Everyone has hated dugtrio for a long time it's not like this a new occurance it just now shaped the meta into what it is now. It was uncompetitive then just as what it was now. And the same thought process has always been there Edited December 17, 2015 by Impulseeee

[Gunthug]

Isn't banning an ability a complex ban? Or is that not on the same path?

No, banning an ability is a flat ban, just like banning a pokemon. Complex bans are banning only specific moves/abilities on certain pokemon

[Impulseeee]

No, banning an ability is a flat ban, just like banning a pokemon. Complex bans are banning only specific moves/abilities on certain pokemon

How does that last sentence make sense? Like u used moves/abilities what is the difference, couldn't u just ban dclaw and curse and call it a flat ban Edited December 17, 2015 by Impulseeee

[OrangeManiac]

Complex ban: Banning something with something. It can be a move, ability, item banned with certain Pokemon for example. Curse Snorlax or Sand Veil Gligar. This would mean some other Pokemon could run Curse or the ability Sand Veil but these Pokemon can't.

 

Flat ban: Banning something completely.

Edited December 17, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Gunthug]

How does that last sentence make sense? Like u used moves/abilities what is the difference, couldn't u just ban dclaw and curse and call it a flat ban

if you banned dragon claw, you'd be banning it on every single pokemon that can learn it. This doesn't really make sense, as dragon claw isn't broken on, say, sceptile. Or charizard.

 

If you banned curse, you'd be banning it on every single pokemon that learns curse. This doesn't really make sense, as curse isn't broken on, say, gengar. Or miltank.

 

Now, is arena trap broken on everything that gets it? That's what the discussion has centered on

[DrCraig]

How does that last sentence make sense? Like u used moves/abilities what is the difference, couldn't u just ban dclaw and curse and call it a flat ban

 

Banning Types: Flat Bans and Complex Bans

 

There are two types of bans, Flat Bans and Complex Bans. Flat bans are used for general situations, when a pokemon, move, ability, etc. meet some sort of banning criteria, at which point, they are banned in their entirety. However, in complex situations where a flat ban would be either ineffective or heavily unfavorable for some reason, complex bans can be used. Typically, these are used for a situation where one specific issue cannot be sorted out, such as with the Shell Smash + Baton Pass ban which took place in Generation 5 within lower tiers. In this case, there were multiple pokemon which could abuse this combination, meaning a flat ban on all of these pokemon was excessive. Likewise, Shell Smash itself wasn't a problem, as there were many legitimate users of it, and the same applied to Baton Pass. As this was a complex situation in which no Flat Ban method was ideal, a Complex Ban was used.

[Vaeldras]

It's quite messy

Diglett and trapinch aren't even ou, and yet just banning dugtrio wouldn't be enough because of diglett.

It would be kinda weird to have arena trap diglett allowed in uu but not in ou, quite a paradox.

Also, is diglett a problem in the lower tiers? i heard it's not, but i don't play other tiers than ou. Would it make sense to have diglett in ubers when it's only bad in ou?

[AnthemoftheAngels]

if you banned dragon claw, you'd be banning it on every single pokemon that can learn it. This doesn't really make sense, as dragon claw isn't broken on, say, sceptile. Or charizard.

If you banned curse, you'd be banning it on every single pokemon that learns curse. This doesn't really make sense, as curse isn't broken on, say, gengar. Or miltank.

Now, is arena trap broken on everything that gets it? That's what the discussion has centered on

That's exactly what I was trying to prove. If trapinch and diglett are only bad in ou and barely ever used in any other tier then what is the difference? So why is this about the ability and not just on the actual problem of dugtrio?

And why I brought up the moves it's in the same boat as the ability. It's not broken on diglett or trapinch. Just like the moves are not broken on the pokes listed above.

The use of trapinch in ou is beyond risky because the lack of speeed.

[Gunthug]

That's exactly what I was trying to prove. If trapinch and diglett are only bad in ou and barely ever used in any other tier then what is the difference? So why is this about the ability and not just on the actual problem of dugtrio?

And why I brought up the moves it's in the same boat as the ability. It's not broken on diglett or trapinch. Just like the moves are not broken on the pokes listed above.

The use of trapinch in ou is beyond risky because the lack of speeed.

You bring up a valid point. I don't think trapinch is broken at all, especially not in OU. You could even argue the same about diglett, though I think it does dugtrio's job effectively enough to warrant a ban should dugtrio go. However, I would compare this situation to what we went through with the Baton Pass ban. In the end, the discussion should be "Is Arena Trap healthy for our metagame, period?" The argument for a flat ban on AT is that it's an uncompetitive but highly effective strategy that constricts teambuilding and takes a lot of emphasis off "player skill" when deciding a match outcome.

 

The argument for baton pass was pretty similar - it was uncompetitive, unhealthy for the meta, and required teams to carry some ridiculous, situational answers to it just to avoid being utterly destroyed. Was baton pass broken on, say, eevee? Most of the time, no, but in the right players hands it could still facilitate an uncompetitive sweep. You could possibly make the same argument about trapinch or diglett in OU.

 

I'm not saying the two situations (baton pass and arena trap discussion) are completely similar - far more pokemon learn baton pass than there are pokes that have access to arena trap, obviously. But it's worth noting that a move/ability can be unhealthy for the metagame even if they aren't necessarily so on each and every pokemon with access to them. At least, that's our precedent

[Robofiend]

You bring up a valid point. I don't think trapinch is broken at all, especially not in OU. You could even argue the same about diglett, though I think it does dugtrio's job effectively enough to warrant a ban should dugtrio go. However, I would compare this situation to what we went through with the Baton Pass ban. In the end, the discussion should be "Is Arena Trap healthy for our metagame, period?" The argument for a flat ban on AT is that it's an uncompetitive but highly effective strategy that constricts teambuilding and takes a lot of emphasis off "player skill" when deciding a match outcome.

 

The argument for baton pass was pretty similar - it was uncompetitive, unhealthy for the meta, and required teams to carry some ridiculous, situational answers to it just to avoid being utterly destroyed. Was baton pass broken on, say, eevee? Most of the time, no, but in the right players hands it could still facilitate an uncompetitive sweep. You could possibly make the same argument about trapinch or diglett in OU.

 

I'm not saying the two situations (baton pass and arena trap discussion) are completely similar - far more pokemon learn baton pass than there are pokes that have access to arena trap, obviously. But it's worth noting that a move/ability can be unhealthy for the metagame even if they aren't necessarily so on each and every pokemon with access to them. At least, that's our precedent

 

Gonna copypast myself because I was making a similar argument yesterday:

 

Regarding AT as an ability: it doesn't *matter* if an ability is banworthy in lower tiers if it's broken in others. For instance, Sand Veil was banned in BW despite the fact that Garchomp was the only real abuser of the ability (in OU) and Shadow Tag was banned in ORAS, mainly because it was a problem in OU with Gothitelle. The lack of pokemon in lower tiers who can abuse these abilities doesn't speak to the fact that Arena Trap/ST/etc. aren't broken there, but rather that there just aren't pokes there to abuse them. 

[AnthemoftheAngels]

Gonna copypast myself because I was making a similar argument yesterday:

Regarding AT as an ability: it doesn't *matter* if an ability is banworthy in lower tiers if it's broken in others. For instance, Sand Veil was banned in BW despite the fact that Garchomp was the only real abuser of the ability (in OU) and Shadow Tag was banned in ORAS, mainly because it was a problem in OU with Gothitelle. The lack of pokemon in lower tiers who can abuse these abilities doesn't speak to the fact that Arena Trap/ST/etc. aren't broken there, but rather that there just aren't pokes there to abuse them.

Again with all respect what is the difference between then banning moves in general if that's what causes a poke to broken and not the ability? If dragon claw is broken on certain pokes but not others isn't it just the same case that that poke can't abuse it just like eevee basically couldn't abuse baton pass?

[DrCraig]

Again with all respect what is the difference between then banning moves in general if that's what causes a poke to broken and not the ability? If dragon claw is broken on certain pokes but not others isn't it just the same case that that poke can't abuse it just like eevee basically couldn't abuse baton pass?

There is a point where banning individual moves from many Pokemon loosens how well the meta adheres to the actual Pokemon games.

[AnthemoftheAngels]

There is a point where banning individual moves from many Pokemon loosens how well the meta adheres to the actual Pokemon games.

And we wouldn't be doing that with banning abilities? Like what's to say that chansey isn't the problem with natural cure then? That could change how the ability of dugtrio works or how dugtrio is even used then? I know the thread isn't about natural cure but about AT, what would the difference be?

[Robofiend]

Again with all respect what is the difference between then banning moves in general if that's what causes a poke to broken and not the ability? If dragon claw is broken on certain pokes but not others isn't it just the same case that that poke can't abuse it just like eevee basically couldn't abuse baton pass?

 

Well banning of moves is really rare and there has to be a compelling reason to ban just the move and not the pokemon.

 

For instance, Swagger was banned in XY because it could be abused with the deadly SwagPlay sets available to many pokemon. In case you're not familiar, Swagger boosts the target's attack and then they have some percent chance of hitting themselves at +2 and if they do get a hit off they have to deal with heightened damage Foul Play does at +2. These sets also took advantage of moves like Protect or strong STABs (in Thundurus' case) to add damage. The other option would've been to ban 5 or so pokemon for their abuse of this move combo who are otherwise pretty balanced. In this case, the community decided that Swagger was the real culprit, not Thundurus or Sableye or what have you.

 

The difference with banning Baton Pass vs. banning Dragon Claw is that Dragon Claw isn't inherently questionable from a competitive standpoint. It literally just does some damage, like many other moves in the game. Baton Pass is more nuanced: it doesn't add a competitive element to the game, in fact, it removes choice from a players hands and centralizes teambuilding and strategy around it, rather than promoting diversity. Similarly, Swagger was banned because it introduces a deadly amount of RNG into the game, allowing players to essentially coast by without having to make intelligent plays. These are the type of moves that get banned, not simple damaging moves.

 

Last, in order for a move to get banned, it needs to be clear that it's broken on everything that uses it, not just one pokemon. For instance, Charizard, Flygon and Sceptile can learn Dclaw, but it's surely not "broken" on them. Eevee's failure to properly use BP isn't an issue with BP, it's an issue with Eevee, similar to how Trapinch is bad but its ability is still uncompetitive.

[AnthemoftheAngels]

Well banning of moves is really rare and there has to be a compelling reason to ban just the move and not the pokemon.

For instance, Swagger was banned in XY because it could be abused with the deadly SwagPlay sets available to many pokemon. In case you're not familiar, Swagger boosts the target's attack and then they have some percent chance of hitting themselves at +2 and if they do get a hit off they have to deal with heightened damage Foul Play does at +2. These sets also took advantage of moves like Protect or strong STABs (in Thundurus' case) to add damage. The other option would've been to ban 5 or so pokemon for their abuse of this move combo who are otherwise pretty balanced. In this case, the community decided that Swagger was the real culprit, not Thundurus or Sableye or what have you.

The difference with banning Baton Pass vs. banning Dragon Claw is that Dragon Claw isn't inherently questionable from a competitive standpoint. It literally just does some damage, like many other moves in the game. Baton Pass is more nuanced: it doesn't add a competitive element to the game, in fact, it removes choice from a players hands and centralizes teambuilding and strategy around it, rather than promoting diversity. Similarly, Swagger was banned because it introduces a deadly amount of RNG into the game, allowing players to essentially coast by without having to make intelligent plays. These are the type of moves that get banned, not simple damaging moves.

Last, in order for a move to get banned, it needs to be clear that it's broken on everything that uses it, not just one pokemon. For instance, Charizard, Flygon and Sceptile can learn Dclaw, but it's surely not "broken" on them. Eevee's failure to properly use BP isn't an issue with BP, it's an issue with Eevee, similar to how Trapinch is bad but its ability is still uncompetitive.

Okay but isn't dclaw just an issue with those pokes listed because of it not having stab. Just like two dragons could easily spam it and weaken everyone's teams. So doesn't those pokes have the same issues as eevee does? The above pokes don't have the same power or speed or other stats etc just like eevee has to abuse it?

And yes the ability is broken I'm not saying it isn't but to me there are a lot of grey areas that blend together.

[Robofiend]

Okay but isn't dclaw just an issue with those pokes listed because of it not having stab. Just like two dragons could easily spam it and weaken everyone's teams. So doesn't those pokes have the same issues as eevee does? The above pokes don't have the same power or speed or other stats etc just like eevee has to abuse it?

And yes the ability is broken I'm not saying it isn't but to me there are a lot of grey areas that blend together.

 

But Flygon has STAB Dragon Claw.

 

The point is we ban pokemon when pokemon are too strong and moves/abilities items when moves are they are detrimental to competition. Baton Pass is one of those moves. Arena Trap is one of those abilities. Dragon Claw is not: it's just an attack and the reason it's so good on Salamence is because Salamence has the typing, stats etc. to back it up, not just because Dragon Claw. 

[DrCraig]

And we wouldn't be doing that with banning abilities? Like what's to say that chansey isn't the problem with natural cure then? That could change how the ability of dugtrio works or how dugtrio is even used then? I know the thread isn't about natural cure but about AT, what would the difference be?

Same goes for abilities, sorry I didn't realized I didn't specify.

Edit: there's just way more instances were a move effects adherence tho Edited December 17, 2015 by DrCraig