[OU Discussion] Arena Trap/Dugtrio (Dugtrio Banned to Ubers)

[Gunthug]

Did everyone just ignore my core breaker post to get involved in that drama? One of your guys issues was you have problems breaking up cores in this defensive metagame so I made a post about that. I do think it is a legit point, but I have been wrong.

I've known this all along and maybe you have too: You can't build a slow set for core breaking because dugtrio takes it out. The best typing are things like thunder and fire for mixed attackers to break cores. The typing is good for STAB and resists bolt beam from pory2. You can't use any of that stuff with dugtrio around. So dugtrio takes a lot of viability away from a great number of core breakers and only allows itself to be used a trapper. Um... that's ignoring the other stuff it is notorious for like revenge killing our regular sweepers and etc. I wrote out a better explanation in my post with some example calcs.

Thank goodness robo isn't replying to me saying "use a pursuit aerodactyl" in this thread yet. I like your new pic robo. Alright, that's all I've got. good luck with the decisions. cheers.

I didn't ignore it because I generally agree with your premise, that dug not only traps walls but also some of the best pokes we have to break those walls. Some (most) of the pokes you listed still won't be used in OU significantly but that doesn't take away from your point too much

[RysPicz]

Did everyone just ignore my core breaker post to get involved in that drama? One of your guys issues was you have problems breaking up cores in this defensive metagame so I made a post about that. I do think it is a legit point, but I have been wrong.
 
I've known this all along and maybe you have too: You can't build a slow set for core breaking because dugtrio takes it out. The best typing are things like thunder and fire for mixed attackers to break cores. The typing is good for STAB and resists bolt beam from pory2. You can't use any of that stuff with dugtrio around. So dugtrio takes a lot of viability away from a great number of core breakers and only allows itself to be used a trapper. Um... that's ignoring the other stuff it is notorious for like revenge killing our regular sweepers and etc. I wrote out a better explanation in my post with some example calcs.
 
Thank goodness robo isn't replying to me saying "use a pursuit aerodactyl" in this thread yet. I like your new pic robo. Alright, that's all I've got. good luck with the decisions.  cheers.

I adore your Christmas avatar. Who's the girl in it? She's awesome. :^)

We've already been there when (was it jj?*) we talked about blazi and ursaring.
Heracross, ursa, blaziken, medicham...i'm sure the council already took each of these into account, so don't worry.
But yeah, i stopped using ursa myself because of that and it's really a sin.

I see it the same way. With Dugtrio banned, otherwise easily trapped and killed wallbreakers will become much more viable. Ironically banning the best Chansey killer will make it much less viable.
Shall we have a decision soon? The whole discussion seems one sided.

[londark]

I would personally just ban Dugtrio for now, that's the real (and only) trapping issue in OU right now. Trapinch sees no usage ever anymore, and Diglett just a little in NU. No one has yet complained about them, so, apparently they aren't that much of an issue where they are.

All the discussion about banning AT instead of just Dug is that they will take its place. I can honestly still see them used to trap chansey, since especially trapinch it's almost a fail safe way to do so, but will they really have on the meta the same impact as dugtrio, with its optimal speed tier and mediocre attack, compared to either good Atk and no speed, or Decent speed ( iirc Diglett used Adamant nature? ) and little to no Atk?

Again, i would personally just insta ban Dug, and wait and see how the 2 little shits affect the meta...


Just my 2 cents

Edited December 15, 2015 by londark

[NikhilR]

All the discussion about banning AT instead of just Dug is that they will take its place. I can honestly still see them used to trap chansey, since especially trapinch it's almost a fail safe way to do so, but will they really have on the meta the same impact as dugtrio, with its optimal speed tier and mediocre attack, compared to either good Atk and no speed, or Decent speed ( iirc Diglett used Adamant nature? ) and little to no Atk?
 

 

I think Trapinch is scary af. Not only can it trap Pursuit / Tpunch locked Metagross, but it can revenge kill a lot of sweepers at low health with QA. It's got a much higher attk stat than Dugtrio and so with CB, it's capable of doing enough damage which could have an impact, imo. 

[OrangeManiac]

I would personally just ban Dugtrio for now, that's the real (and only) trapping issue in OU right now. Trapinch sees no usage ever anymore, and Diglett just a little in NU. No one has yet complained about them, so, apparently they aren't that much of an issue where they are.

All the discussion about banning AT instead of just Dug is that they will take its place. I can honestly still see them used to trap chansey, since especially trapinch it's almost a fail safe way to do so, but will they really have on the meta the same impact as dugtrio, with its optimal speed tier and mediocre attack, compared to either good Atk and no speed, or Decent speed ( iirc Diglett used Adamant nature? ) and little to no Atk?

Again, i would personally just insta ban Dug, and wait and see how the 2 little shits affect the meta...


Just my 2 cents

 

The problem with this metagame isn't trapping Chansey, the issue is trapping offensive threats such as Heracross, Metagross, Ursaring and doing that uncompetitively. After taking down these offensive threats breaking the defensive Pokemon will become really hard to beat. There aren't many (viable) OU wallbreakers outside of that. Flygon, Gyarados even Swampert all underperform against a well build defensive team. 5 walls + Dugtrio is becoming more of an rule than exception with this metagame. Diglett OHKOs Heracross and is faster, it still causes massive damage to Metagross with CB EQ and Ursaring isn't safe either. Trapinch can also do those things but MUCH worse so therefor Trapinch isn't exactly the problem. Yet, it just overall makes more sense and addresses the whole issue much better than banning Dugtrio and Diglett, for example.

Edited December 15, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[londark]

But, can you guys be 100% sure that Trapinch and Dig will be able/be used the same way and with the same success as Dugtrio do trap and kill whatever they want? That they will influence the meta the same way, limiting team building the same way as Dug did? Till now it's just theory, but i think that unless this is proven to be the case banning complety AT, and making non viable a non problematic pokemon in other tiers ( diglett in NU for example ) wouldn't be right.

[OrangeManiac]

But, can you guys be 100% sure that Trapinch and Dig will be able/be used the same way and with the same success as Dugtrio do trap and kill whatever they want? That they will influence the meta the same way, limiting team building the same way as Dug did? Till now it's just theory, but i think that unless this is proven to be the case banning complety AT, and making non viable a non problematic pokemon in other tiers ( diglett in NU for example ) wouldn't be right.

 

Numbers, man.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Diglett Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 156-184 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 120-144 (64.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 134-158 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+1 252+ Atk Diglett Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 278-328 (141.1 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

Diglett is trapping these best wallcorebreakers uncompetitively almost the same way (just not a guaranteed OHKO on Metagross). Trapinch being slower and not living Choice Band makes that not actually work reliably but I think tiering wise we address the issue much better if we ban Arena Trap than we would ban Dugtrio and Diglett.

Edited December 16, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[OldKeith]

glad to see the title change. Let's get rid of all the cancer altogether

[londark]

Numbers, man.
 
252 Atk Choice Band Diglett Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 156-184 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO[/size]
 
252 Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 120-144 (64.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/size]
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 134-158 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/size]
 
+1 252+ Atk Diglett Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 278-328 (141.1 - 166.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO[/size]
 
 
Diglett is trapping these best wallcorebreakers uncompetitively almost the same way (just not a guaranteed OHKO on Metagross). Trapinch being slower and not living Choice Band makes that not actually work reliably but I think tiering wise we address the issue much better if we ban Arena Trap than we would ban Dugtrio and Diglett.

You haven't exactly answered my questions tho. Are you 100% sure that Diglett will jusr replace blindly Dugtrio? Or is it just theoretical? You can bring calcs, but that's not a prove that people will for sure run it as much as Dugtrio, and that the meta will turn around it.
That said, and appurated that right now, the problem IS Dugtrio, i think it's a bad decision removing viability to actual not proven broken, even in lower tiers, pokemon just cause of one, and with no real "field" prove.

Also, can someone direct me to the old Diglett or Dugtrio discussions? I remember bringing up AT Ban, but that was shutted down by ThinkNice i belive with a wall of text, i would like to re-read it again

[Vaeldras]

You haven't exactly answered my questions tho. Are you 100% sure that Diglett will jusr replace blindly Dugtrio? Or is it just theoretical? You can bring calcs, but that's not a prove that people will for sure run it as much as Dugtrio, and that the meta will turn around it.
That said, and appurated that right now, the problem IS Dugtrio, i think it's a bad decision removing viability to actual not proven broken, even in lower tiers, pokemon just cause of one, and with no real "field" prove.

Also, can someone direct me to the old Diglett or Dugtrio discussions? I remember bringing up AT Ban, but that was shutted down by ThinkNice i belive with a wall of text, i would like to re-read it again

 

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/50710-ou-discussion-dugtrio/

 

Also don't oppose me, don't do that

[londark]

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/50710-ou-discussion-dugtrio/

Also don't oppose me, don't do that

I'm talking about the pre split discussion that actually banned Dugtrio or Diglett

[Vaeldras]

I'm talking about the pre split discussion that actually banned Dugtrio or Diglett

 

rip, that's been deleted from the archives.

Lemme dig in the trash

[OrangeManiac]

You haven't exactly answered my questions tho. Are you 100% sure that Diglett will jusr replace blindly Dugtrio? Or is it just theoretical? You can bring calcs, but that's not a prove that people will for sure run it as much as Dugtrio, and that the meta will turn around it.
That said, and appurated that right now, the problem IS Dugtrio, i think it's a bad decision removing viability to actual not proven broken, even in lower tiers, pokemon just cause of one, and with no real "field" prove.

Also, can someone direct me to the old Diglett or Dugtrio discussions? I remember bringing up AT Ban, but that was shutted down by ThinkNice i belive with a wall of text, i would like to re-read it again

 

And you didn't entirely understand my point. Dugtrio is unhealthy to the metagame because it undeniably does things x and y to Pokemon a b and c. Does Diglett do the same things? Yes.

 

This discussion isn't regarding "Is Dugtrio OP?", it's "Does Dugtrio nullify offensive teambuild while needing absolutely no prediction to do that?" and the answer for the second one is yes. Also ThinkNice's quote from 2013/2014 doesn't have much to do with the current metagame we have which is completely different. The only bad thing with the current idea of banning Arena Trap is making Trapinch unusable but it doesn't do anything else than PP stall Chansey/Umbreon (uncompetitively) so it's not like the meta gets notably worse.

 

 

Alright, something else I need to address here, since this is now Arena Trap discussion - not Dugtrio. I think it's very important part of the conversation whether it's the Chansey that lets the defense triumph in the way it does when Dugtrio traps the offensive threats or is it defense in general? Can Pokemon like Clefable, Umbreon, Weezing, Ludicolo, Venusaur, Porygon2 stall you out after you lost your main offensive Pokemon to Dugtrap (Hera, Meta, Ursaring, Blaziken) or are there some Pokemon which would suddenly beat defense much easier if Chansey would be gone? Because if that's the case and Chansey is found to be banworthy, there is no need to ban Arena Trap.

 

I personally think even without Chansey, Umbreon+Weezing core would still be ridiculously centralizing and Dugtrap would still support the wallage but this is just my theorymon. Wanting to hear some more thoughts about this.

Edited December 16, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[KaynineXL]

You haven't exactly answered my questions tho. Are you 100% sure that Diglett will jusr replace blindly Dugtrio? Or is it just theoretical? You can bring calcs, but that's not a prove that people will for sure run it as much as Dugtrio, and that the meta will turn around it.
That said, and appurated that right now, the problem IS Dugtrio, i think it's a bad decision removing viability to actual not proven broken, even in lower tiers, pokemon just cause of one, and with no real "field" prove.

Also, can someone direct me to the old Diglett or Dugtrio discussions? I remember bringing up AT Ban, but that was shutted down by ThinkNice i belive with a wall of text, i would like to re-read it again

Dugtrio and Diglet do pretty much the same thing, somewhat Trapinch too. The reason why Dugtrio is so effective in OU and Diglet is not as effective in UU/NU is because the meta is much different. In OU there are a lot of Pokemon you can trap with Arena trap and kill, in UU, not so much and same goes for NU.

 

There is a somewhat decent example of this with Sharpedo in NU and Crawdaunt in UU. On paper Sharpedo is very good with 2 dangerous stabs and some nice speed, Crawdaunt is quite alike Sharpedo, with the same stabs except its much slower but makes up for it in bulk, of course Crawdaunt does have some other things about it that makes it superior to Sharpedo, such as the ability to setup. Crawdaunt is very good in UU, and Sharpedo is pretty meh in NU, the reason is because in NU Poliwrath & Hitmontop is used often which really makes it underwhelming, Crawdaunt doesn't have to deal with that stuff.

 

Just goes to show that something great in OU, put it in another tier and it could be pretty bad.

 

edit: This isn't exactly addressed to your comment, I just wanted to explain my reasoning as to why Dugtrio was pretty OP in OU and Diglet isn't in other tiers, even though they're supposed to do the same thing. This is my opinion though, I could be wrong.

Edited December 16, 2015 by KaynineXL

[gbwead]

I don't think Dugtrio is unhealthy. However, I do agree with most you guys that claim he fits Uber Support characteristics.

 

I don't like the idea of banning an ability. I think this kind of ban is mostly based on speculations and we would then have to consider all kind of stuff. Would we allow Lanturn in NU if it doesn't have Volt Absorb? Is Magneton UU if it doesn't have Magnet Pull? 

 

I would like to add that even though Diglett seems to be a decent replacement to Dugtrio that doesn't make Trapinch banworthy. Just because a pokemon can trap that doesn't make it banworthy. Otherwise, we would have to ban Magneton, Nosepass, Wynaut and even complex ban Pursuit to some extant. No half-measure please; banning AT and not banning Shadow Tag is ridiculous to me. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 32 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 142-168 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can even resist/ohko Metagross CB and be faster (228 speed) than Chansey in order to pp waste with Encore.

 

I think we should ban stuff only if they are banworthy, not if they could be banworthy XD There would be no Zangoose in NU otherwise ^^

[OrangeManiac]

That Lanturn in NU without Volt Absorb is a bit of a slippery slope but in general, I can see where you're coming from. It might appear as we're banning Arena Trap just because it traps, which is not the reason it's getting banned. It's just that "all these Support Pokemon have the ability Arena Trap so let's just ban Arena Trap". I guess you could look at it both ways.

 

Banning Dug and Dig under Support Ubers kinda makes sense.

Edited December 16, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[KaynineXL]

I don't think Dugtrio is unhealthy. However, I do agree with most you guys that claim he fits Uber Support characteristics.

 

I don't like the idea of banning an ability. I think this kind of ban is mostly based on speculations and we would then have to consider all kind of stuff. Would we allow Lanturn in NU if it doesn't have Volt Absorb? Is Magneton UU if it doesn't have Magnet Pull? 

 

I would like to add that even though Diglett seems to be a decent replacement to Dugtrio that doesn't make Trapinch banworthy. Just because a pokemon can trap that doesn't make it banworthy. Otherwise, we would have to ban Magneton, Nosepass, Wynaut and even complex ban Pursuit to some extant. No half-measure please; banning AT and not banning Shadow Tag is ridiculous to me. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 32 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 142-168 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can even resist/ohko Metagross CB and be faster (228 speed) than Chansey in order to pp waste with Encore.

 

I think we should ban stuff only if they are banworthy, not if they could be banworthy XD There would be no Zangoose in NU otherwise ^^

There is a problem with what you're saying though, in my opinion.

 

Arena trap is different to Magnet pull & Shadow tag because in OU, Arena trap effects a huge majority of the offensive threats and defensive threats, magnet pull only effects a few things, but it can't just come in freely against meta+forre as eq is x4.

[Vaeldras]

I don't think Dugtrio is unhealthy. However, I do agree with most you guys that claim he fits Uber Support characteristics.

 

I don't like the idea of banning an ability. I think this kind of ban is mostly based on speculations and we would then have to consider all kind of stuff. Would we allow Lanturn in NU if it doesn't have Volt Absorb? Is Magneton UU if it doesn't have Magnet Pull? 

 

I would like to add that even though Diglett seems to be a decent replacement to Dugtrio that doesn't make Trapinch banworthy. Just because a pokemon can trap that doesn't make it banworthy. Otherwise, we would have to ban Magneton, Nosepass, Wynaut and even complex ban Pursuit to some extant. No half-measure please; banning AT and not banning Shadow Tag is ridiculous to me. 

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 142-168 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 32 HP / 252+ Def Wynaut: 142-168 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can even resist/ohko Metagross CB and be faster (228 speed) than Chansey in order to pp waste with Encore.

 

I think we should ban stuff only if they are banworthy, not if they could be banworthy XD There would be no Zangoose in NU otherwise ^^

 

I mean, you've seen the calcs right?

Diglett is just the same as dugtrio in most cases.

There's no question dugtrio is unhealthy for this meta as explained by several people before me.

It encourages stall, makes several wallbreakers risky to use and there's nothing you can do to avoid revenge killing.

I get what you mean, banning diglett so soon without any kind of testing could be seen as unprofessional, but again the calcs don't lie.

[londark]

And you didn't entirely understand my point. Dugtrio is unhealthy to the metagame because it undeniably does things x and y to Pokemon a b and c. Does Diglett do the same things? Yes.


Ok, so you are implying that Diglett will be used enough to define the current OU meta, maybe not as much as Dugtrio, but still enough to warrant a ban. Am i right with this? Because, if for xyz reason Diglet would end up not beeing used enough, beeing not succesfull enough to do the job etc...wouldn't the ban of AT be a mistake since the problem was Dugtrio itself?
What i'm trying to say is that IF Diglet, after Dugtrio ban, actually takes its place successfully ( maybe this isn't even neccessary ) than an AT could be the way to go.


 
This discussion isn't regarding "Is Dugtrio OP?", it's "Does Dugtrio nullify offensive teambuild while needing absolutely no prediction to do that?" and the answer for the second one is yes. Also ThinkNice's quote from 2013/2014 doesn't have much to do with the current metagame we have which is completely different. The only bad thing with the current idea of banning Arena Trap is making Trapinch unusable but it doesn't do anything else than PP stall Chansey/Umbreon (uncompetitively) so it's not like the meta gets notably worse.
 


I understand why Dugtrio is bad, and that on papar Diglett can do similar things.
ThinkNice or maybe Senile, have some doubts, post wasn't about the meta at all. Was about why Banning AT would be a bad decision compared to just banning the real ability abusers. One point was actually Trapinch, and that it is wrong to make non viable and punish pokemon that can have a niche with said ability, but not enough ( maybe? Who knows ) to centralize the meta. And trapinch shits on any chansey not carring sp.atk evs and ice beam, doesn't simply pp stall it :p
 

Sorry for bad formatting, but i'm not at my PC....

Anyway, i'm done with the thread, i said what i wanted, if anyone wants to keep discussing just drop a pm

[gbwead]

I mean, you've seen the calcs right?

Diglett is just the same as dugtrio in most cases.

There's no question dugtrio is unhealthy for this meta as explained by several people before me.

It encourages stall, makes several wallbreakers risky to use and there's nothing you can do to avoid revenge killing.

I get what you mean, banning diglett so soon without any kind of testing could be seen as unprofessional, but again the calcs don't lie.

I am not opposed to banning Diglett under Uber Support characteristics like Dugtrio.

However, just because something can support his team thanks to an uncompetitive ability, that doesn't mean that something fits Uber Support characteristics automatically. Otherwise, Wynaut and Trapinch would have more usage.

 

Does banning AT means Dugtrio is going to fall to UU (by usage) instead of going to Ubers?

Edited December 16, 2015 by lamerb

[KaynineXL]

I am not opposed to banning Diglett under Uber Support characteristics like Dugtrio.

However, just because can support his team thanks to an uncompetitive ability, that doesn't mean he fits Uber Support characteristics. Otherwise, Wynaut and Trapinch would have more usage.

 

Does banning AT means Dugtrio is going to fall to UU (by usage) instead of going to Ubers?

I don't think Dugtrio will be used in NU, let alone UU without arena pass, to be honest.

[Vaeldras]

I am not opposed to banning Diglett under Uber Support characteristics like Dugtrio.

However, just because something can support his team thanks to an uncompetitive ability, that doesn't mean that something fits Uber Support characteristics automatically. Otherwise, Wynaut and Trapinch would have more usage.

 

Does banning AT means Dugtrio is going to fall to UU (by usage) instead of going to Ubers?

 

Nu, no doubt.

But i still fail to understand how you don't consider dutrio to be unhealthy

[gbwead]

Nu, no doubt.

But i still fail to understand how you don't consider dutrio to be unhealthy

Because I never explained why XD (i'll try to do that later)

I still think Dug fits Uber Support characteristics, so does it really matter if I don't consider Dug unhealthy?

 

Anyways, the debate seems to be more about arena trap now.

[Vaeldras]

Because I never explained why XD (i'll try to do that later)

I still think Dug fits Uber Support characteristics, so does it really matter if I don't consider Dug unhealthy?

 

Anyways, the debate seems to be more about arena trap now.

 

I don't think the council is concerned about dugtrio's viability with no arena, it's pretty safe to assume there will be no reason to use it in any tier without that ability.

If they turned this into an arena trap discussion is because they probably agreed dugtrio needs to go (lemme know if i'm wrong).

 

The question we have now is: are diglett and trapinch going to be a problem with dugtrio gone?

Imo it would be foolish to just ban dugtrio when diglett works just as well.

Trapinch is just too slow to punish anything that isn't heavily damaged, i highly doubt it would be viable, also it doesn't work like dig/trio so it would no doubt require some testing.

Is it even worth the time though?

[Arimanius]

I don't think the council is concerned about dugtrio's viability with no arena, it's pretty safe to assume there will be no reason to use it in any tier without that ability.
If they turned this into an arena trap discussion is because they probably agreed dugtrio needs to go (lemme know if i'm wrong).
 
The question we have now is: are diglett and trapinch going to be a problem with dugtrio gone?
Imo it would be foolish to just ban dugtrio when diglett works just as well.
Trapinch is just too slow to punish anything that isn't heavily damaged, i highly doubt it would be viable, also it doesn't work like dig/trio so it would no doubt require some testing.
Is it even worth the time though?

Agree if we should ban something dig/dugtrio should be the one leaving there's no way I can agree to ban trapinch since is the slowest pokemon ever, there's no way it can do something to physical pokemons or sweepers unless a tpunch banded move or something but that's different in the worst case it can punish chansey, umbreon users which I see like a good thing (not even p2 cause is faster and I think IB kills, too lazy to calc)