[OU Discussion] Arena Trap/Dugtrio (Dugtrio Banned to Ubers)

[BurntZebra]

This bann happy attitude really needs to stop.  Dugtrio really isn't a problem, it checks something else you want banned...

 

Its not unbalanced, its not over powered, its not over used.

 

Stop going nuts with the bans, litterly turning this game into nothing more then a waste of time.  You guys ban half the stuff I breed, its beyond the point of redicuousness now.

It checks chansey, metagross, heracross, ursaring, magneton, blaziken, medicham, porygon2, arcanine, slaking, and umbreon, but yeah let's ban all of those instead of banning dugtrio. Well its not exactly overpowered in the sense of actual power, but it has arena trap+speed to trap a ton of threats in OU. It is overused by definition of being in the "Overused" tier. I would also argue that it is unbalanced, due to the minimal ability to actually counterplay dugtrio, as once it gets in play, its pretty much a guaranteed kill. The tier council does not factor in the possibility of people wasting time due to breeding comps either. I have 4 comp dugtrios and I will live with it if dugtrio does get banned. I have about 10 snorlaxes, 8 blisseys, 8 salamences, and 8 gengars, losing the ability to use certain pokemon is just an aspect of playing the game. 

[Murcielago]

Right.... but it doesn't change the fact this ban happy attitude is more of a cancer then the actual pokemon.

 

My problem is with the constant bans, not with any one pokemon.  If you want to breed 10 of each OU comp pokemon that is up to you.  Some people would like to actually be able to do some comp every once in a while and not live on a game in order to do so.

 

It seems the more you guys ban the more broken the game becomes as well.  Every ban then we need to ban even more stuff... Its out of hand... and for what?  Dugtrio? you got to be kidding me, its not a big deal...

 

I was looking forward to playing some pokemon and relaxing, but you guys keep banning everything I breed.. its becoming a complete waste of time, even as far as "accomplishing" in game stuff. 

[Robofiend]

If anyone else has an opinion, now's the time to voice it. Since this thread's been around for 7 days and support for Dugtrio ban has been pretty much unanimous it's likely that TC will be voting soon.

[Frag]

If anyone else has an opinion, now's the time to voice it. Since this thread's been around for 7 days and support for Dugtrio ban has been pretty much unanimous it's likely that TC will be voting soon.

 

Banning trio won't change anything bc diglet does the same.

[Robofiend]

Banning trio won't change anything bc diglet does the same.

 

I feel like I addressed this in earlier post but ok

[DoubleJ]

It's true though. Diglett can function just as well as dug except it can't revenge something like espeon or starmie. When we banned dug before, diglett moved right into that spot trapping blisslax.

[Robofiend]

Update: we're talking about whether to ban AT or just Dugtrio

[Liberalisme]

There is nothing wrong with Dugtrio. Only its Arena Trap makes it deadly. We should ban Arena Trap.

[Vaeldras]

Update: we're talking about whether to ban AT or just Dugtrio

 

Flip a coin Would like to see some calcs with diglett against these:

 

Chansey

Ursaring

Heracross (aace shouldn't 1hko iirc, someone ran the calcs)

Umbreon

Metagross

Porygon2

Tauros (lol, forgot diglett is way slower)

 

Edit: Chansey dies to reversal, ursa dies as well, hera dies to aerial ace

 

+1 252+ Atk Diglett Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 168-200 (107.6 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

umbreon needs to have a lot of def investment, metagross lives unless cband set (although it's very unlikely to happen)

 

+1 252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 132-156 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

Pory dies too ofc, so i don't see many differences.

Didn't expect diglett to be this strong.

Absolutely both, if one goes the other has to follow or else we might as well keep both

Edited December 15, 2015 by Vaeldras

[KaynineXL]

Ban Dugtrio+Diglet, same shit.

[DoubleJ]

I'd agree, ban both. Complex banning Arena Trap is kind of silly. 

[Robofiend]

I'd agree, ban both. Complex banning Arena Trap is kind of silly. 

 

Well technically we're talking about Trapinch too.. Nik brought up elsewhere that once CB locked into Pursuit, RS or Tpunch, Trapinch can kill Meta/Hera, as well as Chansey (although it can't really do both at the same time). Like Diglett, it's pretty weak but could essentially serve the same purpose.

 

Banning the ability kind of makes sense because at that point we all just agree that it's the ability that's broken. If that were the case, we'd ban it for being uncompetitive, similar to Baton Pass or Swagplay or something. The only problem is that it's not super obvious that Arena Trap is also broken in other tiers, although it's not hard to see how people could start using Trapinch/Diglett for Kanga/Fable in UU.

 

I say we just ban the ability and hope thats the last OU ban we have to make.

[KaynineXL]

Removing ability works for me also.

[DoubleJ]

Was just playing devil's advocate to see the response. Proud of you guys. 

[Vaeldras]

Ban arena and call it a christmas present

[Gunthug]

Interested to see where an AT-less dug will fall in tiering - is it even viable in NU? We'll see. I'd agree though, AT is uncompetitive no matter where it's used, and it's highly abusable because of that aspect.

E: seem to remember this coming up in the past, but does the game support a ban like this? By that I mean, can tourney mode be adjusted to not allow pokes with a certain ability?

Edited December 15, 2015 by Gunthug

[bl0nde]

Camerupt- is actually a good check for chansey/pory2+weezing+arcanine. (resists poison/tbolt/fire]/ Can't be W-o-W'd. Hits hard - base 100/105 attack stats. Gains bulk with curse. Not viable due to digger in the game though.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Flareon- is kind of a mixed attacker/wish passer support for that chansey/porygon2+weezing core. Is surprisingly resilient with wish for staying in the long haul to irritate cores. Not viable due to digger

Ampharos- is a nice bulky pokemon that can be part of a core. It runs heal bell if desired. Can also be built to help check magneton/jolteon. Options: [heal bell, focus punch/fire punch/etc.] Not viable due to digger

Manetric- overheat/tbolt/hidden power/etc. Easily revenge killed or trapped by digger

Electabuzz- has enough bulk to switch into chansey/pory2 or weezing [cross chop/tbolt/filler/filler] not viable due to digger.

Ninetales- kind of weird but you can still send it in on the pory2/chansey+weezing core. Arcanine too if you give it some bulk. options [calm mind/fire spin/extrasensory (for weezing)/W-o-W/ etc] not viable due to digger...

Houndoom- resists pursuit so you can just switch out freely. Absorbs fire moves (weezing). Learns counter or toxic maybe for arcanine? Great buddy for scizor or forretress. not viable due to digger.

Magmar - cross chop/flamethrower/Hidden power?/filler  not viable with digger.

[spoiler]

Brave Magmar @ 248 HP 128 atk/128 special D

128+ Atk Magmar Brick Break vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Chansey: 134-158 (37.6 - 44.3%)

128+ Atk Magmar Cross Chop vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Chansey: 178-210 (50 - 58.9%)          <chansey

 

0 SpA Magmar Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 144-170 (115.2 - 136%)    

248 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Magmar: 76-91 (44.4 - 53.2%)          <magneton

 

0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Magmar: 45-54 (26.3 - 31.5%)              <Weezing

0 SpA Magmar Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 72-85 (42.1 - 49.7%)

 

128+ Atk Magmar Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Porygon2: 72-86 (37.5 - 44.7%)            <pory2 

128+ Atk Magmar Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Porygon2: 96-114 (50 - 59.3%)  

0 SpA Magmar Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Porygon2: 42-49 (21.8 - 25.5%)  flamethrower does around 20% on the switch in then you annoy it with BB/cross chop

0 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Magmar: 48-57 (28 - 33.3%)

[/spoiler]

Espeon - slower than dugtrio so gets revenge killed.

Blaziken - high jump kick (stab), flamethrower (stab), hidden power rock for arcanine/gyarados/aerdactyl, filler] Gets trapped hard by dugtrio.  <I use this walbreaker and people get really confused on how to handle it. It makes a great core breaker with special defense EV's and maybe a wish pass or two during the game.

 

These are gimicks off the top of my head for helping break up the chansey/pory2+weezing+arcanine high usage core. Some of them are very "that's a long shot even for a gimick" and some are "I can see how that is legit." Either way, none of them are viable right now because digger is around. Then there is all of the regular OU pokemon (non-gimick) that if they get a sweep going can be outspeed and revenge killed by dugtrio ending offensive presence. That has been pointed out already.

 

I think we gain a lot of versatility by being able to use slow core breakers when dugtrio is not around. Slow and bulky core breakers can't afford many speed EV's because you have to have enough EV's #1 in bulk be able to repeadtly switch in and keep up with the wishes/pain splits/morning suns #2 have enough EV's in power to be able to actually annoy or be a threat to these defensive pokemon. Right now these core breakers won't work. You need to be able to switch them in repeatedly to keep up with chansey wishing and pory2 recovering and dugtrio prevents you from establishing any predictable switching pattern. I consider dugtrio the problem to this because even pursuit can be ignored for switching purposes with certain builds with bulk or resistences. As an example, take a look at blaziken. It resists pursuit and can be an amazing mixed attacker for core breaking... but dugtrio takes it out of the game.

Edited December 15, 2015 by bl0nde

[Sebaku]

It's a shame most of you are dismissing Murcielago's comments. While of course it's the council's job to keep a healthy meta-game and taking into account lost breeding time isn't part of that, Murcielago still brings a good point. People who don't have a lot of time, yet still want to enjoy this game get a big punch in their face if one of their comps is banned. Sure BurntZebra, you might lose 4 dugtrio comps, but you have a lot to fill the gaps, you'll easily be able to adept to a dugtrio-less meta. A casual player that still wants to play competitive probably doesn't have a valid substitute or answer. Getting into the competitive side in this game is already a task on it's own, and if in the process some of the comps you make get banned, that can be extremely demotivating. Game wise it's not a great thing to do. For example Hearthstone devs don't nerf cards as it would result in people who build a deck around a certain card, would be extremely discouraged to keep playing. As solution they can ofcourse introduce new cards as counters to overpowered cards, something the people at PokeMMO of course can't do, so I agree every now and then a ban should happen, if it is really unhealthy for the game.

 

So once again, I'm not saying that Dugtrio shouldn't be banned, but taking into account "wasted time" of newer or casual players, should in my opinion, be considered a bit at least. Unless you purely want to focus on having the best possible meta game for the veteran players, and you don't mind not getting new comp players.

[RysPicz]

I surely am not a new player, but I actually started from 0 in April and right now my Ou box contains 20 pokes from which 2 are dugtrios. Its not about Murcielago's comment of people wanting to ban stuff and not thinking about newer players. It is all about healthy metagame that is enjoyable for everyone and not uncompetitive. I use Dug a lot, I have it in most of my teams and personally I wouldn't want it banned but the most important thing is the community and not my personal shit.
In previous meta I made and bred hundreds of Dragonites and Salamences only to see them banned shortly after. So what? You want to keep uncompetitive, unhealthy, OP stuff because of bullshit reasons?
Step up.

[DrCraig]

It's a shame most of you are dismissing Murcielago's comments. While of course it's the council's job to keep a healthy meta-game and taking into account lost breeding time isn't part of that, Murcielago still brings a good point. People who don't have a lot of time, yet still want to enjoy this game get a big punch in their face if one of their comps is banned. Sure BurntZebra, you might lose 4 dugtrio comps, but you have a lot to fill the gaps, you'll easily be able to adept to a dugtrio-less meta. A casual player that still wants to play competitive probably doesn't have a valid substitute or answer. Getting into the competitive side in this game is already a task on it's own, and if in the process some of the comps you make get banned, that can be extremely demotivating. Game wise it's not a great thing to do. For example Hearthstone devs don't nerf cards as it would result in people who build a deck around a certain card, would be extremely discouraged to keep playing. As solution they can ofcourse introduce new cards as counters to overpowered cards, something the people at PokeMMO of course can't do, so I agree every now and then a ban should happen, if it is really unhealthy for the game.
 
So once again, I'm not saying that Dugtrio shouldn't be banned, but taking into account "wasted time" of newer or casual players, should in my opinion, be considered a bit at least. Unless you purely want to focus on having the best possible meta game for the veteran players, and you don't mind not getting new comp players.

The PokeMMO grind is terrible, but that is really not considered when tiering. We don't bring broken thing down to fix broken things. Also we do not keep broken things so you can use your comps. Tiering is not selfish; The meta will change and players adapt. This is the competition alley, not the casual alley.

[Gunthug]

It's a shame most of you are dismissing Murcielago's comments. While of course it's the council's job to keep a healthy meta-game and taking into account lost breeding time isn't part of that, Murcielago still brings a good point. People who don't have a lot of time, yet still want to enjoy this game get a big punch in their face if one of their comps is banned. Sure BurntZebra, you might lose 4 dugtrio comps, but you have a lot to fill the gaps, you'll easily be able to adept to a dugtrio-less meta. A casual player that still wants to play competitive probably doesn't have a valid substitute or answer. Getting into the competitive side in this game is already a task on it's own, and if in the process some of the comps you make get banned, that can be extremely demotivating. Game wise it's not a great thing to do. For example Hearthstone devs don't nerf cards as it would result in people who build a deck around a certain card, would be extremely discouraged to keep playing. As solution they can ofcourse introduce new cards as counters to overpowered cards, something the people at PokeMMO of course can't do, so I agree every now and then a ban should happen, if it is really unhealthy for the game.

 

So once again, I'm not saying that Dugtrio shouldn't be banned, but taking into account "wasted time" of newer or casual players, should in my opinion, be considered a bit at least. Unless you purely want to focus on having the best possible meta game for the veteran players, and you don't mind not getting new comp players.

Your gripe is not with the tier council, but the devs of this game. I suggest you head to suggestion box or one of the "this game is broken right now" threads on general discussion and voice your opinion. We are all very aware that the grind-heavy nature of the game is doing serious harm to our competitive scene due to the time it takes our meta to evolve after/around changes. Forcing the tier council to do a half-assed job because of these flaws isn't the solution

[OrangeManiac]

I wish I wouldn't have to go about this in every thread but apparently I have to since I can't assume everyone reads every thread.

 

The tiering policies exist to make a metagame and the experience of battling an enjoyable experience. Although there are certain specific virtues the tiering policies follow, that is the ultimate goal. The tier council exists to make the tiers following this policy. You don't care much about an enjoyable battle experience more than the fact you can have "the minimum effort" to make a comp team by having everything allowed, go play Ubers. If there is no competitive Ubers tournament, then the outcry shouldn't be towards the council, or tiering policy - it should be directed at the tournament hosts. Go to event discussion and say "I want a tournament, where all of my Pokemon are allowed to be used and nothing is banned" and I'm absolutely sure you will be listened to. Heck, I made the thread saying to enforce Ubers and Noad made an Ubers tournament within a week. 

 

"B-b-bbut I don't want a metagame with Salamence running around wild!". Then you obviously want an enjoyable metagame to battle in.

 

At people complaining about the bans: You're completely complaining about the wrong thing.

 

[spoiler]And then to actual Dugtrio discussion, I definitely think this thread should be trashed and make "Arena Trap" discussion instead.[/spoiler]

[DrCraig]

No chill in the comp alley

[bl0nde]

Did everyone just ignore my core breaker post to get involved in that drama? One of your guys issues was you have problems breaking up cores in this defensive metagame so I made a post about that. I do think it is a legit point, but I have been wrong.

 

I've known this all along and maybe you have too: You can't build a slow set for core breaking because dugtrio takes it out. The best typing are things like thunder and fire for mixed attackers to break cores. The typing is good for STAB and resists bolt beam from pory2. You can't use any of that stuff with dugtrio around. So dugtrio takes a lot of viability away from a great number of core breakers and only allows itself to be used a trapper. Um... that's ignoring the other stuff it is notorious for like revenge killing our regular sweepers and etc. I wrote out a better explanation in my post with some example calcs.

 

Thank goodness robo isn't replying to me saying "use a pursuit aerodactyl" in this thread yet. I like your new pic robo. Alright, that's all I've got. good luck with the decisions.  cheers.

Edited December 15, 2015 by bl0nde

[Vaeldras]

Did everyone just ignore my core breaker post to get involved in that drama? One of your guys issues was you have problems breaking up cores in this defensive metagame so I made a post about that. I do think it is a legit point, but I have been wrong.

 

I've known this all along and maybe you have too: You can't build a slow set for core breaking because dugtrio takes it out. The best typing are things like thunder and fire for mixed attackers to break cores. The typing is good for STAB and resists bolt beam from pory2. You can't use any of that stuff with dugtrio around. So dugtrio takes a lot of viability away from a great number of core breakers and only allows itself to be used a trapper. Um... that's ignoring the other stuff it is notorious for like revenge killing our regular sweepers and etc. I wrote out a better explanation in my post with some example calcs.

 

Thank goodness robo isn't replaying to me saying "use a pursuit aerodactyl" in this thread yet. I like your new pic robo. Alright, that's all I've got. good luck with the decisions.  cheers.

 

We've already been there when (was it jj?*) we talked about blazi and ursaring.

Heracross, ursa, blaziken, medicham...i'm sure the council already took each of these into account, so don't worry.

But yeah, i stopped using ursa myself because of that and it's really a sin.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Vaeldras