[UU Discussion] Houndoom -Banned to BL1

[LifeStyle]

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 6:47 PM, suigin said:

First of all Psychics are back, they are the only type with a set up move that raises Spatk

You're forgetting those that can learn Growth like Venusaur and Jolteon for example (Growth Jolteon + Life Orb can be really scary)

There are also non-psychic types that can set up Calm Mind like Golduck (I know it's NU)

[DoubleJ]

I am still not opposed to a Houndoom ban simply because of its ability to support a team. Here is some additional discussion items:

• Slowking is the only viable Psychic-type in UU because it can stand up to Houndoom with its defensive bulk and STAB Surf, otherwise pokemon like Grumpig, Exeggutor, Xatu, Mr.Mime, and Hypno are almost entirely negated, or are forced to run a gimmick set to "maybe" prevent being killed by Houndoom. 
• Houndoom has essentially zero counters when you consider STAB physical Crunch, STAB Flamethrower, access to any Hidden Power, and also moves like Destiny Bond and WoW. Altaria becomes the safest switch in, but Life Orb HP Ice without investment can two shot any Altaria set. The same goes for Omastar which is one shot by Life Orb HP Grass. 
• The only reliable option to remove Houndoom is a predicted switch, or praying your opponent plays the risk of staying in against Mach Punch Breloom or a surprise EQ from a mixed attacker. Either way, if you predict wrong against Houndoom it can kill any squishy sweeper. Faster pokemon like Dodrio, Manectric, and Sneasel all scare Houndoom, but given its resistance to Pursuit it can safely just swap out against any of these. 

In my opinion, a Houndoom ban makes just makes so much sense for the advancement of UU. Having access to bulky Psychic-types can reduce the affect of defensive cores like Slowking + Vileplume + Steelix, and it can offer even more versatility on the Special Defensive side of the game. 

[gbwead]

Despite what seemingly looks like a drop in Houndoom's usage, I still believe Houndoom needs to be test ban.

 

6 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

• Houndoom has essentially zero counters 

I disagree with this statement though: Miltank is a hard counter and Shuckle/Cradily are pretty decent as well.

[DoubleJ]

Just now, lamerb said:

Despite what seemingly looks like a drop in Houndoom's usage, I still believe Houndoom needs to be test ban.

 

I disagree with this statement though: Miltank is a hard counter and Shuckle/Cradily are pretty decent as well.

252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 72-85 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

*Can spam Recover for that Life Orb damage or just Rock Slide it into oblivion, I'll give Cradily counter material, but if it has damage it can't safely switch in. 

4 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Shuckle: 36-43 (28.5 - 34.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

*Relying on Rest kind of sucks and without any offense it is really impaired, especially if it walks into the rare Substitute Houndoom (check material in my opinion). 

252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 67-79 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 11.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

*Got him, good counter IMO

[LifeStyle]

Yo, just run scarf Diglett like real thugs

Spoiler

jk tho

Spoiler

or am I?

Spoiler

Ofc I am

Spoiler

JUST DO IT!

 

 

 

 

[gbwead]

1 minute ago, LifeStyle said:

Yo, just run scarf Diglett like real thugs

  Reveal hidden contents

jk tho

  Hide contents

or am I?

  Hide contents

Ofc I am

  Hide contents

JUST DO IT!

 

 

 

 

Scarf Diglett looks really good on paper for UU. It revenge kills more than just Houndoom. I wonder if Beat Up does enough dmg to beat Muk/Manectric behind a substitute.

[LifeStyle]

Just now, lamerb said:

Scarf Diglett looks really good on paper for UU. It revenge kills more than just Houndoom. I wonder if Beat Up does enough dmg to beat Muk/Manectric behind a substitute.

Jokes aside, it can be used as a revenge killer indeed but only against certain things like you said. Either ohko some stuff or finish other mons with some hp down.

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Houndoom: 210-248 (140 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 168-198 (115.8 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 138-164 (88.4 - 105.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Nidoking: 152-182 (97.4 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Tentacruel: 134-158 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 156-186 (100.6 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 140-168 (91.5 - 109.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Idk how much power Beat Up have but it can prolly shrek a Haunter behind a sub (Does Arena Trap work against ghosts tho?)

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electabuzz: 170-204 (122.3 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 192 Def Lanturn: 132-156 (64.3 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 140-168 (71 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Diglett Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 108-128 (79.4 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Mach Punch tho)

 

And I think that's pretty much it. Gimmick af? Yes. Funny to use? Could be. But I mean, it's a fucking Diglett, kek.

 

[Gunthug]

I'm definitely on board with a 1 month suspect test of UU without doom in the tier. I think some convincing arguments have been presented that it centralizes the tier and restricts teambuilding to an unhealthy degree, but until we actually observe a UU meta without houndoom for a period of time, we won't know if that claim is true

[Robofiend]

I'm definitely ok with a test on Houndoom, but like others have said I'm worried that Sneasel and Absol will just replace Houndoom as the go-to Psychic killers despite lacking the typing that gives Doom 9/10 of its free swaps - Fire. Nonetheless, with one much faster than any psychic (Sneasel) and one much more powerful (Absol) than Doom, I'm wary about the chances for Exegg, Slowking, Grumpig and Haunter having a real niche in the tier It's worth mentioning that without Crunch neither has the raw spam power that Doom has, but access to Pursuit is often enough to poke big holes in opposing teams.

 

[Liberalisme]

Lol why would you ban it? JJ just called 3 solid pokemons that counter Doom. How about Hitmontop, Mach Punch 2HKO's. Any pokemon that is faster and uses physical moves (and does atleast neutral damage) will OHKO. So scarfed pokemons can beat it aswell (scarfed absol)

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Liberalisme said:

Lol why would you ban it? JJ just called 3 solid pokemons that counter Doom. 

Well that credit goes to Gbwead, I just showed the calcs after he convinced me. 

[DaftCoolio]

16 hours ago, Gunthug said:

restricts teambuilding to an unhealthy degree

Restricting Grumpig and Exeggutor is enough to call it unhealthy? A little spatk investment and grumpig can 2hko with HP fighting after Doom taking Life Orb damage.

104 SpA Grumpig Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 66-78 (44 - 52%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

 

The same thing with Exeggutor, except it doesn't require spatk investment to 2hko. 

0 SpA Exeggutor Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 78-92 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Don't give me "it stops haunter" trash as well, specs sludge bombs poop all over houndoom not to mention the speed tie. 

Xatu as well. (Do people plan to run specs? or just the usual calm mind?) Also a speed tie.

252 SpA Choice Specs Xatu Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 116-138 (77.3 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

So when you say it restricts team building which pokemon do you mean because you can't be reffering to these ones.  

 

[Arimanius]

@DaftCoolio idt u can speed tie with xatu if you're going with hp fight tho maybe hp ground yeah and about the other two idt they could actually beat houndoom in a realistic match. just my opinion tho

[DaftCoolio]

57 minutes ago, Arimanius said:

@DaftCoolio idt u can speed tie with xatu if you're going with hp fight tho maybe hp ground yeah and about the other two idt they could actually beat houndoom in a realistic match. just my opinion tho

please describe a realistic match. considering both can stay in and live a crunch, not to mention predicting a pursuit and staying in, i dont see why they cant.

Even then the main point was how Houndoom is restricting team building to an unhealthy degree when its restricting, not stopping, only 2 viable pokemon. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by DaftCoolio

[Arimanius]

2 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

please describe a realistic match. considering both can stay in and live a crunch, not to mention predicting a pursuit and staying in, i dont see why they cant.

Even then the main point was how Houndoom is restricting team building to an unhealthy degree when its restricting, not stopping, only 2 viable pokemon. 

Alright for me there could be two options one is predicting, imagine he saw your grumpig before and your opponent switches his doom in, u can't risk the pursuit so u stay u get 38-45% without switching and u do 44 - 52% with grumpig to doom with hp fight with the life orb damage he's now for a kill but so are u and u're slower and the other option is in a revenge kill. Exeggutor has more chances to survive if it stays in a pursuit but that's risky asf since flamethrower or 2 crunches can take it down. He also stops jynx which could be a hell of wall breaker but it would need to run hp ground and timid nature to be able to speed tie and jynx is weak to every move from doom not to mention that it would get locked in an hp ground which could make, for example, a scizor comes in and kill with pursuit. I don't know I've been trying to use psychic mons (with movesets to kill doms, that is, hp ground or fight) in matches and when facing doom I haven't been able to use them effectively before they're dead

[DaftCoolio]

11 hours ago, Arimanius said:

Alright for me there could be two options one is predicting, imagine he saw your grumpig before and your opponent switches his doom in, u can't risk the pursuit so u stay u get 38-45% without switching and u do 44 - 52% with grumpig to doom with hp fight with the life orb damage he's now for a kill but so are u and u're slower and the other option is in a revenge kill. Exeggutor has more chances to survive if it stays in a pursuit but that's risky asf since flamethrower or 2 crunches can take it down. He also stops jynx which could be a hell of wall breaker but it would need to run hp ground and timid nature to be able to speed tie and jynx is weak to every move from doom not to mention that it would get locked in an hp ground which could make, for example, a scizor comes in and kill with pursuit. I don't know I've been trying to use psychic mons (with movesets to kill doms, that is, hp ground or fight) in matches and when facing doom I haven't been able to use them effectively before they're dead

my bad the realistic match thing was kind of rhetorical. Well of course doom stops jynx, doom resists both STABS, its called a counter/check, plume restricts fighting types but that doesn't restrict team building and make the meta unhealthy. Swellow restricts ground types but that doesn't restrict team building and make the meta unhealthy. Scizor restricts poison types yada yada yada. 

 

Your guys reason for banning it is because its a dark type and its doing what dark types do, slows down (not stops, hidden power fighting op) psychic types, the same way ground types slow down electric  

Edited June 1, 2016 by DaftCoolio

[BlackJovi]

2 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

my bad the realistic match thing was kind of rhetorical. Well of course doom stops jynx, doom resists both STABS, its called a counter/check, plume restricts fighting types but that doesn't restrict team building and make the meta unhealthy. Swellow restricts ground types but that doesn't restrict team building and make the meta unhealthy. Scizor restricts poison types yada yada yada. 

 

Your guys reason for banning it is because its a dark type and its doing what dark types do, slow down psychic types, the same way ground types slow down electric  

ElProolio 

[Gunthug]

7 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

my bad the realistic match thing was kind of rhetorical. Well of course doom stops jynx, doom resists both STABS, its called a counter/check, plume restricts fighting types but that doesn't restrict team building and make the meta unhealthy. Swellow restricts ground types but that doesn't restrict team building and make the meta unhealthy. Scizor restricts poison types yada yada yada. 

 

Your guys reason for banning it is because its a dark type and its doing what dark types do, slows down (not stops, hidden power fighting op) psychic types, the same way ground types slow down electric  

It's not that it simply has a type advantage on a certain subset of pokemon (plume can't 1hko fighting types as they switch out against it, btw, same goes for ground v electric types)- it's that the mere possibility of this thing has psychic types bending over backwards to MAYBE not get killed by it. The fact that a psychic type would even consider running hp fighting/ground for houndoom with scizor in the tier shows how centralizing houndoom has become. This kind of "tough decision" might even be a good thing, if it weren't for the fact that hound/scizor have nice chemistry. Personally, my worry is that scizor will continue to plague psychics like jynx, grumping, and exegg if we were to test the meta without doom. But I do think it's worth a test - it's entirely possible that scizor is a problem all on its own

[BlackJovi]

3 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

It's not that it simply has a type advantage on a certain subset of pokemon (plume can't 1hko fighting types as they switch out against it, btw, same goes for ground v electric types)- it's that the mere possibility of this thing has psychic types bending over backwards to MAYBE not get killed by it. The fact that a psychic type would even consider running hp fighting/ground for houndoom with scizor in the tier shows how centralizing houndoom has become. This kind of "tough decision" might even be a good thing, if it weren't for the fact that hound/scizor have nice chemistry. Personally, my worry is that scizor will continue to plague psychics like jynx, grumping, and exegg if we were to test the meta without doom. But I do think it's worth a test - it's entirely possible that scizor is a problem all on its own

Meh, scizor can be a problem, but whats the point in banning him to OU if he's gonna get 0% usage like last time then drop again in a month? 

 

Imo houndoom isn't that strong tbh, yeah its good wall breaker, yeah it limits psychic types, but thats what dark types do lmao, they're counters

[Gunthug]

Just now, BlackJovi said:

Meh, scizor can be a problem, but whats the point in banning him to OU if he's gonna get 0% usage like last time then drop again in a month? 

 

Imo houndoom isn't that strong tbh, yeah its good wall breaker, yeah it limits psychic types, but thats what dark types do lmao, they're counters

Most dark types can be handled with good prediction and a relatively powerful coverage move in signal beam - plus, absol lacks doom's speed and powerful secondary stab, whereas sneasel lacks the power

 

Also, if scizor is banned he'd go to BL, not OU. BL pokes are banned from UU regardless of their OU usage

[Champlooo]

1 minute ago, BlackJovi said:

Meh, scizor can be a problem, but whats the point in banning him to OU if he's gonna get 0% usage like last time then drop again in a month? 

 

Imo houndoom isn't that strong tbh, yeah its good wall breaker, yeah it limits psychic types, but thats what dark types do lmao, they're counters

if he gets banned won't he just stay in BL and not come back down? Or did that change

[BlackJovi]

1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

Most dark types can be handled with good prediction and a relatively powerful coverage move in signal beam - plus, absol lacks doom's speed and powerful secondary stab, whereas sneasel lacks the power

 

Also, if scizor is banned he'd go to BL, not OU. BL pokes are banned from UU regardless of their OU usage

yeah I meant BL, but won't he go back to UU in like a month? 

1 minute ago, Champlooo said:

if he gets banned won't he just stay in BL and not come back down? Or did that change

they banned it and it came back down Lol, or was it a test ban and im wrong? 

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, BlackJovi said:

yeah I meant BL, but won't he go back to UU in like a month? 

no u

 

 

Srs tho, we gotta get rid of Doom and then discuss Dodrio fucking asap if you ask me

[BlackJovi]

Just now, RysPicz said:

no u

 

 

Srs tho, we gotta get rid of Doom and then discuss Dodrio fucking asap if you ask me

oh yeah dodrio is another topic, thing is broken as fuck. Life orb set can't even wall it 

[DoubleJ]

When the tier council considers something too strong for a specific tier and it is banned as borderline, it cannot return to that tier unless the tier council decides to reverse their decision.

 

When a pokemon has usage above 4.37%, or something, in a tier above the one it is currently in, for instance Houndoom with 5% usage in OU, then that pokemon is considered OU from that point forward and is now banned from UU. This type of ban is different from the one described above, and it can drop back down into a lower tier  (UU) if its usage in the upper tier (OU) goes back below the 4.37% cut-off. This is what happens when staff have usage updates and the tiers get reshuffled. It's because pokemon have high or low usage in certain tiers. 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by DoubleJ