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Let me think about NU's recent drops: The Blazin' Kickin' Chicken is back once again. Sure, it won't have similar dominance as it had before its rise to UU. Hopefully, we can topple the ubiquity that Hitmontop has had on the tier. BKC has amazing set diversity and utility with the capability to run various sets like scarf, banded, LO, SD, and Mixed. Colonel Sanders has been cooking something because we got the 2-for-1 special with these drops. Moltres is unironically such an interesting mon in NU. Sure, defensively it's a worse Golbat with a 4 times rocks weakness but I feel like it could be an interesting mon to have in the tier, regardless of its flaws. (I hate Charizard btw) Gigalith is back. Gigillions must run sand. I am so hyped for the return of Gigalith to NU. Zoroark is odd and that is to say that I don't know what to think about this. I am not sure it will stay in the tier for long given NU's lower power-level and worse potential checks and counters.

I want to hop on the back of this excellent take to provide my own (unnecessary) opinion on the matter. My main frustration with Sharpness Gallade is not that it was added but that the Devs undercut the competitive communities' consensus about the issue at hand. Sure, you can assume that the devs were intent on replicating some sort of parity with the mainline titles to be up-to-date but with the fact that PokeMMO lacks a lot of the things which keeps Sharpness Gallade in check (i.e. new moves, new items, new abilities, new 'mons, insane powercreep, etc) - or said with better phrasing, why don't have a similar level of defensive counter-play in which to keep quite manageable threats in check. The issue with PokeMMO's attempt at parity with modern day mechanical changes to the mainline games is that there is an utter lack of defensive options to cover such threats. We wouldn't be talking about Complex banning SD on Chomp or DM on Drei if we had HDB or Regen Slowbro - not that I would like the inclusion of either mind you. And do recall that we reduced the PP count of recovery moves which makes it far harder to keep such threats at bay. Sure, we have the Assault Gear and Neutralizing Gas Weezing but other than that not much in terms of actual counter-play to the power-creep induced by parity. Like, if most of your defensive answers to certain 'mons are taking hazards chip each time they switch in to take a hit, it is going to be far harder for said defensive answer to continue to be "an answer" in the first place. Think about it. We inhabit a MMO which notable Legendary Defensive Staples like the Genies, 'Rachi, 'Tran, etc don't exist and where Sharpness Gallade is threatening to cut OU into shreds. The awful precedent wasn't set by the userbase but by the devs which "underhandedly" (I recognize the strong verbiage but it seems fitting given the scenario) made the decision without the requisite knowledge of the TC beforehand. If we were to have an ability like Sharpness, most would decrease the power to an amount in line with the parameters of the strength of the corresponding meta-game. We don't have a viable way to research if x1.3, x1.4 or x1.5 Sharpness would be healthier for the OU metagame with a good enough sample size as even calcs only give a sense of what a mon could do given a particular 1v1 scenario. As you have stated correctly, we can discuss which multiplier might be manageable for Gallade to exist in the tier until the eventual heat-death of the universe but we kind of have to because we are following the new precedent which dictates that we plausibly have no say in how competitive is balanced. While it frustrates all of us that we are still harping on the topic of Sharpness, it's kind of the only thing we can do given our current circumstance. TL;DR: The Sharpness discussion is one of the issues that was formed downstream of a lack communication by the development team of PokeMMO and we kind of have to deal with it.

Unironically a good shout. I mainly play NU on the side and I have always been somewhat curious about how Gallade's inclusion in current NU would shake up a few things. So, I wouldn't necessarily mind that. Although, when it comes to the topic of Sharpness on Gallade, I still find it odd that the reversion back to 1.5 Sharpness in a metagame where DM drei was deemed to be too overbearing, might have been an oversight by the devs.

I think you might have misunderstood me. I know that dry-passing is the rule but what I was implying is basically in agreement with what you have said. Vaporeon would be too overwhelming for NU given its current state. Don't forget that Vaporeon, as apart of the updated SV learnsets, now has access to CM so it can literally function like a bulky set-up sweeper akin to Suicine in OU.

What caused the margin to rise/drop to increase/decrease respectively? Last month it was 5.5% and up to move up, 3% and below to go down. Was this change due to the LNY event? I was really cooking up a storm for the likely NU drops (given the previous drop percentage) but eh, that's water under the bridge. E: Speaking on the Vaporeon retest, I am still not sure if I would agree on having it back in the tier. Sure, we have our bulky waters like Mantine, Milotic, Quag, Alo or Quil (etc) but they all have exploitable weaknesses that makes them manageable within the tier like not having overwhelming bulk, reliable recovery and incredible utility unlike Vaporeon. With 130/60/90 Bulk you are able reliably take on a vast amount of threats that reside in the tier, along with being about to wish-pass and stack CMs make it seem like an overwhelming threat akin to having Suicine drop to UU. For Vaporeon to be somewhat manageable in NU, you would need to have a ton of drops occur at a time.

Using the Standard Bulky Set: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (49.1 - 58%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 78-92 (46.7 - 55%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Sucker Calc: possible 3HKO if you low roll) 252 Atk Dugtrio Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 34-40 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (49.1 - 58%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Rock Tomb Calc: 3HKO but you risk a scald burn) Using the LO set: 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Starmie: 78-92 (57.7 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Sucker Calc: guaranteed 2HKO) 252 Atk Dugtrio Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 33-39 (24.4 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO 252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 82-97 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Rock Tomb Calc: guaranteed 2HKO due to LO recoil) Your intuition is correct. To secure the 2HKO you need to be quite match up reliant on which Starmie set you are running into and, at the time of posting, only 37.55% of Starmie sets can guarantee a 2HKO. 4MSS is quite the conundrum with running Dugtrio but I wouldn't go as far as to say that Endeavor would be the last move one would want to be running. Also, don't tell me that my sarcastic post about Endeavor Duggie fooled you guys?

Nice!

This is one of the times I will have to begrudgingly agree with caio here (and by extension, the rest of those who hold a similar stance). Dugtrio learning Endeavor allows it to become far more oppressive and reduces the number of possible checks to a fraction of its current size. Got a pesky bulky flying type that can easily counter or check you? Now you don't need to rely on a 100BP rock type move with a 20% chance to miss, just endeavor after trapping one of your teammates checks and get another mon free of charge! Now people have a sure fire way to obtain a free kill after capitalizing on trapping a mon with something like Endeavor + Sucker Punch without risking going for EQ damage rolls. The only way one can possibly check this mon is to have a pokemon with priority to revenge kill AFTER dugtrio has already taken out one of your walls. I can already imagine the faces of the Dugtrio users that now don't have to rely on moves like Reversal to be somewhat relevant. Sure, you have other arguments made that I didn't find particularly well made to justify banning Dugtrio such as pointing to past meta-games with uniquely different context as precedence for a ban but this new addition kind of pushes Duggie, and even Diglett, over the edge. I have to capitulate and change my stance to move for a BAN on Dugtrio (more so the evolution line if possible) but I do want to see how people will run Dugtrio after this new move addition so don't make a decision yet.

Tiering decisions are inherently subjective and as such can be argued to be manageable. Yes, Dugtrio might have been banned as a Support Uber nearly nine years ago. Times have certainly changed. OU didn't have Shaymin, the dog trio (haha, get it?) and the bird trio as we do now; legendaries that were thought to be far out of the scope of PokeMMO general philosophy to even include. Don't forget the release of Hidden Abilities and later generation parity with the addition of new items, moveset and ability updates, updated mechanics etc. Never mind being only limited to roughly 3 generations of pokemon at the time. Sure Dugtrio might have new tools like 100 base attack stat (SM), Swords Dance (SV), Sucker Punch (DPP) and Stealth Rocks (DPP) but we have a better armory to withstand that slight pressure. Dugtrio, with how it is being used in both ladder and tournaments, can really only function well with magic bounce support and proper positioning within that framework, all the while facing a myriad of opposing threats. Yes, no one here denied that Arena Trap does take away one's autonomy to switch but are we really sure that it is to such an unacceptable degree? That's kind of what we have been struggling to come to an consensus about and why I even implied that we kind of exhausted the discussion around the topic. TC can either do the right thing and copy my opinion verbatim or the wrong thing and face the fury of a slightly-upset internet-denizen who has no time to start a ruckus. Either way, it will be downright catastrophic. Although most people, like myself, wouldn't even mind a slight nerf to dugtrio but I would argue that even in its current state, it is quite manageable. Honestly, I feel quite the same. Seeing as it is coming soonTM, CNY/LNY is likely to shake up something in the competitive scene or at least give us some time to consider which topics we ought to prioritize in the future. I would rather see arguments when the metagame has had the chance to settle with the new additions. I have no stakes in the matter but I do find it troubling that the decision regarding a Gallade/Sharpness was kind of unceremoniously ripped from the hands of the TC/Player-base at large. But that is a discussion for another time.

Not gonna lie. I feel like all the arguments have already been made corcerning Dugtrio. It's kinda just banter now. All we are doing now is waiting for TC to come to the correct decision, which just so happens to be my opinion verbatim.

As I said before, just semantics. It can trap and break down walls. At the end of the day, this is just something meaningless to get hung up about. Please just read the quote, especially the parts in bold. The implication with my earlier statement is that there is a vast wealth of difference, in cheese, between BP and AT. Which follows directly into how there are forms of counter-play for AT that are utilized widely in the tier. I somewhat agree with you but that is why we should give it time. Dugtrio isn't even a necessarily great mon and oftentimes requires both MB and TP support to not break it's sash and to switch in safely. In addition, we have Zapdos' first foray into the metagame which threatens to break down such offensive cores with ease. Let alone numerous potential checks and counters which can easily handle Dugtrio which others have highlighted beforehand. Metagames tend to fluctuate and shift and yet it may take time for people to fully realize a pokemon's strengths and weaknesses.

Dugtrio roles are dependent on whatever the trainer feels suits the team but within the Arena Trap+Magic Bounce Core that countless others have brought up, Trio functions as a stall/wallbreaker that allows for its teammates to flourish outside the pressure of whatever threatens them. Although, this is just semantics. I used BP Teams showcase how wide the disparity could be when it comes to being match-up reliant. I never implied that Dugtrio was even comparable to BP in that aspect. See Here: And while I realize that Dugtrio has more utility outside of Arena Trap+Magic Bounce cores, there is a sufficient amount of counter-play for Dugtrio that I and others, that share my stance on the matter, deem to be healthy for the tier and not as overbearing as others are exaggerating it is. Yes, it is frustrating to have one of your mons trapped by Dug but I don't consider that grounds for a ban. I am firmly on the side of DNB and hope that this reflects on TC's decision surrounding the matter. Hopefully this gets the message across.

Because they function in a similar role to Dugtrio as a stall/wallbreaker on any other team. I know BP is nerfed to just drypassing in PokeMMO, I was using BP as a example of a "cheesy" team archetype that is match-up reliant by definition. It isn't an Team Archetype but an Offensive Core. Arena Trap+Magic Bounce only requires two mons not a whole team: Dugtrio @ Focus Sash Ability: Arena Trap Level: 50 EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly Nature - Earthquake - Stone Edge - Reversal - Stealth Rock Espeon @ Leftovers Ability: Magic Bounce Level: 50 EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Spe Bold Nature - Psychic - Baton Pass - Wish - Protect Both Pokemon need each other to function well in a team. Dugtrio traps potentially dangerous threats which can either wall and trap Espeon with Pursuit while Espeon negates the opponent from breaking Duggie's sash with rocks, spikes or other forms of status. This core is no different from cores like DragMag in its offensive capability. That is what I mean when I allude to the fact that it is just one piece of the pie. I wish others were better at understanding what I am trying to convey rather than just run to assumptions but I guess that is just something I need to work on.

I think the barrier to call a team archetype cheesy ought to be quite high. BP is a team archetype that I would consider heavily reliant on the match-up. Run into an opponent that has the tools to counter stat-passing (i.e. taunt, phasing moves, infiltrator) then your strategy becomes dust. Unlike BP or any other noncompetitive strategies, Dugtrio is just one component of a team that provides support to its other teammates by eliminating pertinent threats. Functionally equivalent to any other Stall-breaker like Sub-NP Hydreigon, CM Espeon, Sub-SD Gliscor, etc. Win Conditions depend on the match-up but that shouldn't require your team to sacrifice 2-3 move-slots to function like BP teams do.

Most of the arguments in favor of a Dugtrio (read: Arena Trap) ban tend to miss the forest for the trees. The precedent is non-existent and to apply past decisions onto this ever-changing meta-game is absurd to me. As others have already brought up beforehand, new additions could violently shift the metagame to such an extent that you would be looking at an entirely different painting. One such example that happened recently is the addition of the Legendary Birds into the game. Zapdos easily dismantles Magic Bounce+Arena Trap Cores and provides so much more utility than what was previously imagined in the meta-game akin to Lando-T's ubiquity in Generation 5 to 8 OU.