[Denied]Changes to take the edge off of the new Breeding method

[Gilan]

So, with the proposed method of breeding that was delivered to us recently, it is fairly apparent that new players will have an extremely hard time getting to the level that many of the current competitive players are at (in terms of pokemon). The argument that 5x25 and 31 speed are just as good as the 5/6x31 comps is simply not true (I believe Fred, or any other knowledgeable competitive player, can shed some more insight on that fact than I can if necessary). My fear is that this will dissuade new players from sticking around for the long haul. Therefore, the purpose of this suggestion is to relieve some of the difficulties that are presented with the new breeding system, while still maintaining the core concept of it (i.e. pokemon sink and Losing resources for better resources).

First point: I think that there needs to be something that buffs wild caught pokemon. I think this could be achieved with a consumable item that guarantees that your next X encountered pokemon will have at least one 31 iv for sure. This simply just helps someone tackle that first rung of the breeding ladder.

Second point: get rid of the 80% ability rule. Make it 100% of whatever the Mother has (or father in the case of breeding with ditto). I suggest this, because in the case of magnemite, if anywhere along the way in your breeding project you happen to get unlucky with the 1/5th chance (assuming the mother had magnet pull) the rest of the project will likely result in an unusable pokemon (you can't even breed it with another species to at least convert those good IVs that you worked so hard for onto another project).

Third point: Introduce quests that reward the player with a gifted (so not able to be traded) 6x31 ditto. These quests should be scarce (no more than 1 a month) and should only be available once the player has gained full access to the Hoenn region (so no old player has an advantage over a new player due to multiple alternate accounts). The ditto should only be usable with an OT pokemon that matches the ditto's OT. This way, at least once a month any player can get a pretty good competitive pokemon potentially. I am not sure if this is too over powered or not...

Fourth Point: Allow ditto to breed with other ditto. I think that it thematically fits into the refinement system, and it would really help in breeding those genderless pokemon.

I think that these points together would help take the edge off of the proposed breeding system, especially for new players. This way, they at least have a way to attempt to get onto the same playing field as current players.

I may be jumping the gun, and maybe the new system will be just fine (but many people don't think so already), but to me it certainly seems like a much more daunting task than what everyone is used to...

[spoiler]I hope I didn't just do something stupid by actually posting this...[/spoiler]

Other suggested ideas:

I was gonna make a thread with a suggestion but I'll add it here.

Have a possibility of 1-4 eggs from any given 2 parents before they hit the breeding oven

I suggested this on another thread, instead of slaughtering our breeders how about limiting the amount of eggs we can get in 1 day or pay to get eggs, the more eggs we hatch the more the price goes up? or mix them together? I'd rather pay for my eggs than lose my breeders for just 1 egg (I think it's 1 egg, not sure)

Robofiend's suggestion found below (his second post in this thread and a bit too long to put in the OP) Edited January 2, 2015 by xGilanx

[Quakkz]

a 25 atk iv or an 31 atk iv is 1,5% damagedifference, 25 hp and 25 def might get u 2-3% more incoming physical damage. i dont see that as a huge difference when the damage u deal can vary 15% without any influence from ivs and shit just by pure rng

 

when i read it first i was sceptical too but i think its worth a try, especially if its true what noad posted about how long it took her to make a comp from scratch

Edited December 31, 2014 by Quakkz

[Noad]

a 25 atk iv or an 31 atk iv is 1,5% damagedifference, 25 hp and 25 def might get u 2-3% more incoming physical damage. i dont see that as a huge difference when the damage u deal can vary 15% without any influence from ivs and shit just by pure rng

 

when i read it first i was sceptical too but i think its worth a try, especially if its true what noad posted about how long it took her to make a comp from scratch

It is o/ 

I have some time tonight and tomorrow so I am more than happy to take on another breeding project of your guy's suggestion to help put your mind at rest. Something reasonable though ;) I will note down how many eggs it takes, time and cost, I will start from scratch and use only Pokemon I have caught in the wild like with my Pelipper.

[KingTsunami]

Pls noad, don't just agree with yourself that it works and is worth it, give your honest truth after all of it pls.

[Arimanius]

Third point: Introduce quests that reward the player with a gifted (so not able to be traded) 6x31 ditto. These quests should be scarce (no more than 1 a month) and should only be available once the player has gained full access to the Hoenn region (so no old player has an advantage over a new player due to multiple alternate accounts). The ditto should only be usable with an OT pokemon that matches the ditto's OT. This way, at least once a month any player can get a pretty good competitive pokemon potentially. I am not sure if this is too over powered or not...

About this I think is a little too much, with a 3x31 ditto I think would be more than enough but I agree with this idea, I don't see anything wrong with rewarding you for playing the game even though this would be better I think, if u have to log in every day the whole month to get it

[fredrichnietze]

It is o/ 

I have some time tonight and tomorrow so I am more than happy to take on another breeding project of your guy's suggestion to help put your mind at rest. Something reasonable though ;) I will note down how many eggs it takes, time and cost, I will start from scratch and use only Pokemon I have caught in the wild like with my Pelipper.

timid starmie

relaxed porygon

relaxed hp grass metagross

adamant metagross

impish skarm

 

starm/pory cause no gender so higher end of difficulty + i assume higher end of time table.

2xmetagross so people get a idea of how long it takes to breed 2 of same species (grass hp cause swampert bait + hp breeding for new system)

skarm cause middle of the road with gender commonly used by everyone.

Edited December 31, 2014 by fredrichnietze

[Noad]

Pls noad, don't just agree with yourself that it works and is worth it, give your honest truth after all of it pls.

I am being entirely honest, I had my reservations about it but I decided I would give it a go. For me I found that it brought back the enjoyment I got from Catchmmo days but also some of the fun elements of breeding too. When making the Pelipper it was like a puzzle, deciding what brace to use for a certain IV. It felt for me a lot more interactive then just getting an egg, paying 4k and waiting for it to hatch and then rinse & repeat. 

[flavajabari]

yea i dunno how people considered noads example as a positive thing,

i thought it was awfull to spend that much money & time for a common comp thats still meh compared to my older comps.

whats it gonna be if we want a fossil pokemon or some like Fred stated above.

[DoctorPBC]

I was gonna make a thread with a suggestion but I'll add it here.

Have a possibility of 1-4 eggs from any given 2 parents before they hit the breeding oven

[Beldore]

I am being entirely honest, I had my reservations about it but I decided I would give it a go. For me I found that it brought back the enjoyment I got from Catchmmo days but also some of the fun elements of breeding too. When making the Pelipper it was like a puzzle, deciding what brace to use for a certain IV. It felt for me a lot more interactive then just getting an egg, paying 4k and waiting for it to hatch and then rinse & repeat. 

Interactive yes, but with the new plaayers who don't even get on the forums will probably find this frustrating. Some people just want to sit back and hatch eggs without having to go 1-2 days getting shit wild caught pokes and then spending like a week just to get a semi decent comp. I get this is an MMO and all, but this isn't a good way to go to make it feel like one.

[Noad]

I will have a go breeding a Starmie or a Metagross then. o7 I will post more about it as I go in one of the GD threads so not to derail this suggestion. 

[Beldore]

I suggested this on another thread, instead of slaughtering our breeders how about limiting the amount of eggs we can get in 1 day or pay to get eggs, the more eggs we hatch the more the price goes up? or mix them together? I'd rather pay for my eggs than lose my breeders for just 1 egg (I think it's 1 egg, not sure)

[Yaguarete]

i suggest that all the players says NO to loose our breeders.

Why I would throw the Pokemon that cost me so much trouble getting?

Why we could'nt use our old comps to breed new?

we also lose the ability to help our teammates to get their own comps. 

I can accept losing an item or two every time I go to breed something, but will not to lose my breeders.

[Robofiend]

I think killing breeders is the best thing this game can do: after a new poke becomes available people can just bust out offspring and then sell them immediately so that others can start doing the same. After you're done with your amazing breeders you just sell them (or loan them) and move on, leading to an ultimate overdose of good-iv'd comps. I never had to work to breed nearly perfect pokemon because my teammates would just give them out.

 

Now it's kinda a waste to breed one new comp out of two godly parents, you might as well breed 10, meaning that people have to pick and choose (to some degree) what they are breeding instead of constantly jumping around and quickly breeding tons of comps.

 

The way I see it, this method can reliably produce near-perfect comps in little time without flooding the market with disposable breeders or making teams completely centralized for breeding comps (RIP my once infinite access to Bowser's god collection). I think removing the Cinnabar guy and replacing him with consumable held items is brilliant because it gives you the power to choose which IVs pass and removes one of the worst money sinks in the game, as well as reduces the mindless play that is involved with getting flags. The everstone and abilities reworks are also awesome: this cuts out the worst part of breeding (random nature/ability pokes with great ivs). It also gets rid of the cancer causing -8 roll.

 

Problems:

- rich people are still rich (there's no way to fix it)

- it honestly seems like it might be too easy to put in two awesome parents in and watch them shit out amazing babies

- it destroys the "breed as a team" spirit and discourages sharing :c

- where the fuck are we going to get enough everstones for this? 

[Gilan]

Robo, it's a 2 for 1 system you aren't going to be able to put in 2 parents and watch them shit out godly "babies".

also everstones on geodude an gravelers.

Though, can we please stay on topic of the suggestion?
Either suggest something that might take the edge off of the new system or explain why an edge does not exist or why the edge does not need to be removed. This is not a thread to post whether or not the new system should or shouldn't be implemented (GD is doing that enough, and Kyu already gave a response for those of you arguing that point).

[Robofiend]

Though, can we please stay on topic of the suggestion?
Either suggest something that might take the edge off of the new system or explain why an edge does not exist or why the edge does not need to be removed. This is not a thread to post whether or not the new system should or shouldn't be implemented (GD is doing that enough, and Kyu already gave a response for those of you arguing that point).

 

Fixes:

- 1-5 baby limit on breeding two pokes. you put in 2, you get 1-5 out, so you don't totally get fucked if you put in your modest magneton and end up with a sturdy one. This way you limit supply of fresh pokes without making a poke-sink out of breeding. I think it's a huge mistake to trade two great pokes for the average of both, especially when breeding across species or chain breeding, which will now conceivably take longer than the estimated age of the universe.

 

- Let ditto live! Finding good dittos is practically impossible and finding a perfect ditto happens in 1/(31*31*31*31*31*31) aka never. Make the fat breeder guy say something like "ew what is this useless pink thing?" and give it back after you're done. Why? Just so we have something breeding related that's tradeable and inherently valuable. This is an option instead of my first suggestion, but I like the first suggestion better.

 

- (credit to Gunthug's post in another thread) Don't destroy the pokemon, just make it so that a pokemon can only breed once and then it's basically neutered. That way there's not so much of a distinction between whether something's going to be a comp or a breeder- you can do both but it'll take a little time

 

Lastly, I think the CatchMMO elements could make breeding way more fun that what we've seen so far, although I won't say that certainly as the devs have been known to make every feature of this game as tedious and slow-going as possible in the past (ev training, trainer tower, etc).

Edited December 31, 2014 by Robofiend

[Gilan]

Fixes:
- 1-5 baby limit on breeding two pokes. you put in 2, you get 1-5 out, so you don't totally get fucked if you put in your modest magneton and end up with a sturdy one. This way you limit supply of fresh pokes without making a poke-sink out of breeding. I think it's a huge mistake to trade two great pokes for the average of both, especially when breeding across species or chain breeding, which will now conceivably take longer than the estimated age of the universe.

- Let ditto live! Finding good dittos is practically impossible and finding a perfect ditto happens in 1/(31*31*31*31*31*31) aka never. Make the fat breeder guy say something like "ew what is this useless pink thing?" and give it back after you're done. Why? Just so we have something breeding related that's tradeable and inherently valuable. This is an option instead of my first suggestion, but I like the first suggestion better.

- (credit to Gunthug's post in another thread) Don't destroy the pokemon, just make it so that a pokemon can only breed once and then it's basically neutered. That way there's not so much of a distinction between whether something's going to be a comp or a breeder- you can do both but it'll take a little time

Lastly, I think the CatchMMO elements could make breeding way more fun that what we've seen so far, although I won't say that certainly as the devs have been known to make every feature of this game as tedious and slow-going as possible in the past (ev training, trainer tower, etc).

I'm not going to agree with the multiple eggs per parents idea, nor letting ditto live, as I don't like the gambling idea associated with it.

I do see a lot of potential in letting the parents live but attaching a neutered flag to them after being in the daycare. Would definitely help take the edge off.

edit: also running off of the neutered pokemon idea, you could also attach a "gifted" flag to the parents as well as the old lady "gifts" them back to you. Thus the same effect occurs that the devs are trying to acheive, but the players don't have to get rid of some of their valued comps that they want to breed with. Edited December 31, 2014 by xGilanx

[Robofiend]

I'm not going to agree with the multiple eggs per parents idea, nor letting ditto live, as I don't like the gambling idea associated with it.

 

I mean, with this system you know what ivs your baby will have right off the bat, so it's not really gambling its just capping the amount of benefit you get from one breed while raising the odds in your favor when breeding multi-ability pokemon. Frankly it's bullshit that you're expected to put in two god pokemon with great natures/ivs/abilites and hope you get the right ability 80% of the time. 

 

I suppose changing the ability pass chance could help to rectify this part of it but I would personally like a breeding system that has some positive side effects, not just an average of what you put in: there's no room for economic upward mobility there, which is why the gambling system that we currently have has made lots of players who've spent lots of time breeding super rich.

 

I also don't understand your opposition to my ditto suggestion, there's no gambling associated with it. It just takes the edge off and makes ditto worth something again, as right now they are practically useless.

 

EDIT: another idea - if parents are EV trained at the very least should pass down EVs to their children. That way you could breed old comps with new HPs or egg moves and not have to spend all day leveling up and training new comps. It would also enable future little cup tournaments with EVs for people who aren't autistic enough to buy and use the Amnesia Brace. Also, another potentially great option would be to have the option of which egg moves, tms, etc. get passed down when you pick up your egg to prevent some of the headaches caused by forgetting to take surf off of a poke when you want it to be born knowing 4 egg moves.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Robofiend

[Gilan]

I mean, with this system you know what ivs your baby will have right off the bat, so it's not really gambling its just capping the amount of benefit you get from one breed while raising the odds in your favor when breeding multi-ability pokemon. Frankly it's bullshit that you're expected to put in two god pokemon with great natures/ivs/abilites and hope you get the right ability 80% of the time.

I suppose changing the ability pass chance could help to rectify this part of it but I would personally like a breeding system that has some positive side effects, not just an average of what you put in: there's no room for economic upward mobility there, which is why the gambling system that we currently have has made lots of players who've spent lots of time breeding super rich.

I also don't understand your opposition to my ditto suggestion, there's no gambling associated with it. It just takes the edge off and makes ditto worth something again, as right now they are practically useless.

When I said "gambling" I was thinking of the scenario that you use perfect breeders. With 1-3 egg production that is luck based on whether or not you get 1, 2, or 3, will sometimes increase the number of godlies you have, and will sometimes decrease the number of godlies you have. I just don't like that idea. I'm personally fine with the 1 egg production.

Also, I don't see the need to treat ditto differently than all the other pokemon. Edited December 31, 2014 by xGilanx

[Desu]

I do see a lot of potential in letting the parents live but attaching a neutered flag to them after being in the daycare. Would definitely help take the edge off.

The reason why this doesn't work is you can still create tons of clones.

A breeds with B, you get C. C Breeds with D, you get E.

You now put in 3, and you have 5. One of which can still breed, the others you can sell/battle with.

It also becomes a whole second issue with trading, for new players unaware of neutering will buy a neutered for normal prices and so forth.

[Robofiend]

It also becomes a whole second issue with trading, for new players unaware of neutering will buy a neutered for normal prices and so forth.

 

Well a simple GUI addition that tells noobs that this pokemon is now unbreedable would fix that part. Nonetheless, the clone part is true.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Robofiend

[MasterExquisite]

I will have a go breeding a Starmie or a Metagross then. o7 I will post more about it as I go in one of the GD threads so not to derail this suggestion.

hp grass metagross please. Id really like to see someone successfully breed for a hidden power with this new system. Since you know hidden powers are a huge part of the meta

[Yaguarete]

this system will make us see only mediocre Pokemon spam in trade chat, and true comps for sale will cost much more than they cost now, so this way the rich will be richer once again.

[Beldore]

If your goal is to reduce inflation and clones, then you're like 1 year late. With this system you pissed off most of the community and made a lot of players quit. With this system the new players have no chance in getting comps because their breeders will be sacrificed. IMO and some others in this community, this is not the way to go to reduce inflation and clones.

[Gilan]

The reason why this doesn't work is you can still create tons of clones.

A breeds with B, you get C. C Breeds with D, you get E.

You now put in 3, and you have 5. One of which can still breed, the others you can sell/battle with.

It also becomes a whole second issue with trading, for new players unaware of neutering will buy a neutered for normal prices and so forth.

Which is why I suggested that adding a "gifted" flag to the neutered pokemon would probably be a good idea. That way only 1 pokemon can be traded away, and most likely most of the other pokemon that you used as parents will simply be released as they probably aren't comp viable (except super lucky catchmons, and previously existing comps).
The idea is not to make clones, as the need to constantly aquire 1 more ingredient still exists, but rather to provide a trampoline so you can jump up a few rungs on the ladder for the player's next breeding project.
I also think that this way, trading hogh tier pokemon will at least be somewhat encouraged.

Edit: Also teammates could more easily help out other teammates (in terms of breeding), but would semi hinder the comp lending system. Edited December 31, 2014 by xGilanx