[Discussion] Dragonite [Banned from OU to Ubers]

[Gunthug]

Gengar jolt heracross aero starmie flygon alakzam metagross machamp don't even need the speed if at full health. And metagross can come in on a cb dclaw all day and begin to abuse it. Most of the time dnite is mid late game but even used as a lead metagross will still kill it.

Zam can abuse sub encore and run hp ice. Starmie is ehh but still forces it out and can hit something else hard.

That is what I was thinking about setting up on it. Gengar and metagross and aero I have done countless times already and works 100% of the time. Heracross I havnt used yet tbh along with jolt but I'd imagine it works the same way in using sub and if dnite hits u kilL it then.

And lets be honest. You know when dnite hits you with dclaw. So you know if it's banded or not.

When are you bringing in zam, starmie, aero, hera, and jolt on dnite? After Dnite has already killed something on your team? Because absolutely none of those pokes can switch in on Dnite.

 

edit:

 

-If Mixed, it won't do much physical damage, deal with it.

 

 

This is just objectively not true. Dnite has 134 base attack, I don't care if its not CB or DD, that stab dragon claw is gonna fuckin hurt

Edited February 12, 2015 by Gunthug

[NikhilR]

Gengar jolt heracross aero starmie flygon alakzam metagross machamp don't even need the speed if at full health. And metagross can come in on a cb dclaw all day and begin to abuse it. Most of the time dnite is mid late game but even used as a lead metagross will still kill it.

Zam can abuse sub encore and run hp ice. Starmie is ehh but still forces it out and can hit something else hard.

That is what I was thinking about setting up on it. Gengar and metagross and aero I have done countless times already and works 100% of the time. Heracross I havnt used yet tbh along with jolt but I'd imagine it works the same way in using sub and if dnite hits u kilL it then.

And lets be honest. You know when dnite hits you with dclaw. So you know if it's banded or not.

 

Gengar set up means setting up sub/wow and gets rekt by Arcanine - definitely not match winning and so a fail

 

Dragonite can live jolteon hp ice and kill jolteon with dragon claw and in what world is subbing considered as a set up? - fail

 

How does Heracross force a dnite to switch out? Please enlighten me. Until then, fail

 

Aero cannot set up but instead if you rock slide, you'll allow Rhydon to sub/sd and that is a set up. Slowbro can come in with ease and slack off the damage.  So again fail

 

Flygon forces the switch out but the damage it does is way less compared to dragonite. Slowbro can come in and easily handle it. Not a set up and not match winning either.

 

In what world is sub/encore considered as set up when you don't have calm mind? Any man with their right mind can switch to a blissey and kill this "set up". Alakazam is a fail

 

How does a starmie hit a blissey or snorlax "hard"  since that is what the dnite user will switch into? Do you know what an spdef wall is? Because if you do then you'll know that none of starmie's moves touch either of those two. So all starmie does is force the switch out and not a set up.

Edited February 12, 2015 by NikhilR

[XPLOZ]

This is just objectively not true. Dnite has 134 base attack, I don't care if its not CB or DD, that stab dragon claw is gonna fuckin hurt

 

Don't hurt enough a mixed stall like vap which can heal just after. Like thunderbolt (that's why we saw some thunders). You need to 2HKO those walls. (or find solutions like setting up spikes of course)

 

EDIT : Or RNG fuck that like many times and crit + para, you have the choice

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ

[Sacky]

You can check all of that with a good team built

-If DDancer, there are pokemons which can come on the first DD and make an ice move (vap for exemple)

-If CBander, try to brain it with your team built and don't let it come many times (anticipation is real)

-If Mixed, it won't do much physical damage, deal with it.

 

All of that are sweeper sets. If dragonite had Roost, then i'd agree that it would be very unpredictable.

u dont need to explain me how to deal whit nite xD..that's not the discussion

what im trying to tell u is...a good player can use the assumption of a band nite and hit u hard..(bring back the old and good sub puncher nite for example)

the sub one can hit slowbro whit t-bolt at least 2 times, can hit whit focus punch to metagroos....but all of this is just an example


when a poke can carry that set, a really strong sp set, and a band set whit a broken stat and can even get a x4 weaknees hit and not die...then i think a pokemon is really broke

IMO nite is totally banwhorthy

[Gunthug]

Don't hurt enough a mixed stall like vap which can heal just after. Like thunderbolt (that's why we saw some thunders). You need to 2HKO those walls. (or find solutions like setting up spikes of course)

 

EDIT : Or RNG fuck that like many times and crit + para, you have the choice

Yeah but isn't the whole point of Mixed dnite to break the defensive walls that usually give it trouble? (slowbro, vap, etc) So vap can't switch into a mixed dnite since if it subs on the switch, itll drop you with thunder/tbolt. And, on top of this ability to deal w/bulky waters, the mixed set still has an extremely powerful dclaw to deal with the bliss/lax/other special wall that thinks it can handle those special attacks.

[Excelimpulse]

Gengar set up means setting up sub/wow and gets rekt by Arcanine - definitely not match winning and so a fail

Dragonite can live jolteon hp ice and kill jolteon with dragon claw and in what world is subbing considered as a set up? - fail

How does Heracross force a dnite to switch out? Please enlighten me. Until then, fail

Aero cannot set up but instead if you rock slide, you'll allow Rhydon to sub/sd and that is a set up. Slowbro can come in with ease and slack off the damage. So again fail

Flygon forces the switch out but the damage it does is way less compared to dragonite. Slowbro can come in and easily handle it. Not a set up and not match winning either.

In what world is sub/encore considered as set up when you don't have calm mind? Any man with their right mind can switch to a blissey and kill this "set up". Alakazam is a fail

How does a starmie hit a blissey or snorlax "hard" since that is what the dnite user will switch into? Do you know what an spdef wall is? Because if you do then you'll know that none of starmie's moves touch either of those two. So all starmie does is force the switch out and not a set up.

How does arcanine stop gengar??fail. Gengar can run more sets then dnite. Gengar more unpredictable. StaB sbomb to arc come on now. And lastly arc irofl who the hell even uses that.

Aero doesn't have to run cb you can run sub. And again a smart player uses aero with spikes. Aero also gets crunch now and can hit slowbro. and inb4 u say spikes is irrelevant then yeah if they are the momentum is obviously not in your favor and won't be. Which results in a lack of team build.

And all those arguments your assuming your bail out pokes are at full health.

Like I said before momentum is needed for dnite. if you have it it's down hill and you can't stop it but that goes for basically all the pokes I just listed. But if your up hill dnite has a horrible time coming in. Almost every team 2-3 pokes running ice beam to stop all the dragons and other threats.

Bringing dnite in safe is basically only with eq and a fighting move.

Either way just saying fail behind it because your assuming how the battle has taken place does not make you look good. just makes you look immature imo. Your assuming one given mlveset.

On that note dnite isn't about having a counter to it. It's about surving it. And it can be done. And it can be abbused.

[XPLOZ]

Yeah but isn't the whole point of Mixed dnite to break the defensive walls that usually give it trouble? (slowbro, vap, etc) So vap can't switch into a mixed dnite since if it subs on the switch, itll drop you with thunder/tbolt. And, on top of this ability to deal w/bulky waters, the mixed set still has an extremely powerful dclaw to deal with the bliss/lax/other special wall that thinks it can handle those special attacks.

 

Then try to check that it's mixed before doing anything else which can be fatal for you. And about sub, it's not an argue because this is the same for each pokemon. You are just saying "don't let set it up", but i agree, that's a good advice. Don't forget sub = 1move less. What less, espeed ? Then you are slow. Superpower ? Then you can't even do things to great sp walls. Flamethrower ? Then some pokemons can come... ... and break the sub.

The mixed one exists for a long time, but vaporeon was already a counter to it. Just Thunder could (or can) beat it. Then talk about accuracy, Burntzebra won vs Schuchty because of 2 consecutive misses of Thunder, not a long time ago in like a 3rd or 4th round in official. I think there is always a flaw.

People realise just now that mixenite is a threat, but it was before and it wasn't overplayed at all.

Edited February 12, 2015 by XPLOZ

[NikhilR]

How does arcanine stop gengar??fail. Gengar can run more sets then dnite. Gengar more unpredictable. StaB sbomb to arc come on now. And lastly arc irofl who the hell even uses that.

Aero doesn't have to run cb you can run sub. And again a smart player uses aero with spikes. Aero also gets crunch now and can hit slowbro. and inb4 u say spikes is irrelevant then yeah if they are the momentum is obviously not in your favor and won't be. Which results in a lack of team build.

And all those arguments your assuming your bail out pokes are at full health.

Like I said before momentum is needed for dnite. if you have it it's down hill and you can't stop it but that goes for basically all the pokes I just listed. But if your up hill dnite has a horrible time coming in. Almost every team 2-3 pokes running ice beam to stop all the dragons and other threats.

Bringing dnite in safe is basically only with eq and a fighting move.

Either way just saying fail behind it because your assuming how the battle has taken place does not make you look good. just makes you look immature imo. Your assuming one given mlveset.

On that note dnite isn't about having a counter to it. It's about surving it. And it can be done. And it can be abbused.

 

Arcanine has access to morning sun / crunch / flamethrower. So yes it beats gengar. If you really haven't seen arcanine in this meta then it clearly means that you know nothing.

 

Sub aero doesn't kill Dnite either and it won't do shit to any bulky water type. Really man, sub fucking aero? Have you heard of the move rapid spin? I hear it removes spikes which means the effort you put into putting those spikes just went to waste.

 

252 Atk Aerodactyl Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 56-66 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- 75.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I can clearly see slowbro shitting its pants right there.

 

Dnite can come in on any move if a vaporeon is passing wish to it. Its bulk makes most moves a 2-3hko allowing wish to restore it back to full health.

 

I am assuming the moveset of the pokes that you have given me since it is your argument that a no. of pokes can set up on dnite.

 

The note here is about the things that can set up on dnite or abuse it switching out which clearly none of the things you've mentioned do so.

 

And after seeing you call arcanine as a fail counter to gengar, I just realized that the only failures are your hp flying aero and your comp career.

Edited February 12, 2015 by NikhilR

[Gunthug]

Then try to check that it's mixed before doing anything else which can be fatal for you. And about sub, it's not an argue because this is the same for each pokemon. You are just saying "don't let set it up", but i agree, that's a good advice. Don't forget sub = 1move less. What less, espeed ? Then you are slow. Superpower ? Then you can't even do things to great sp walls. Flamethrower ? Then some pokemons can come... ... and break the sub.
The mixed one exists for a long time, but vaporeon was already a counter to it. Just Thunder can beat it. Then talk about accuracy, Burntzebra won vs Schuchty because of 2 consecutive misses of Thunder, not a long time ago in like a 3rd or 4th round in official. I think there is always a flaw.
People realise just now that mixenite is a threat, but it was before and it wasn't overplayed at all.

But what makes mixed dnite such a threat now is how insanely powerful the CB set has become, and how the meta has become centralized around stopping that cb set. Now, the mixed set has become a great anti meta device - I just saw Spartacus roll through an official the other day with it.

I still think the Cb set is the one that makes dnite ban worthy, but its potential to run a deadly mixed set is also worth mentioning.

[Draekyn]

Arcanine has access to morning sun / crunch / flamethrower. So yes it beats gengar.

 

And lastly arc irofl who the hell even uses that.

 

 

Nik is right xcel..

[Excelimpulse]

Why did my aero get brought into this? and yes you keep ignoring the momentum I keep stating. There is a thing called rapid spin and there is also a bulky gengar that can spin block.

I havnt seen arc check a gengar and that means I'm a failure. Ok makes sense.

But when you avoid the momentum argument that shows you that it just looking to pick apart things that can be picked apart.

How can aero not kill dnite with rs? I'm confused

[NikhilR]

Why did my aero get brought into this? and yes you keep ignoring the momentum I keep stating. There is a thing called rapid spin and there is also a bulky gengar that can spin block.

I havnt seen arc check a gengar and that means I'm a failure. Ok makes sense.

But when you avoid the momentum argument that shows you that it just looking to pick apart things that can be picked apart.

How can aero not kill dnite with rs? I'm confused

 

If I remember clearly, your momentum argument had something to do with explosion? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd never run explosion to take down one pokemon. I'd use it in a situation where I'm about to die and take whatever I can with me. And I have heard of people sacking their sweepers to take down walls but I've never heard of someone sacking their walls to take down a sweeper.

 

A bulky gengar cannot effectively spin block a starmie with psychic. And using your own argument against you, slowbro would fail to be a counter to a dragonite when spikes are set up.

 

Of course it means that you're a failure because just because you haven't seen something alone is bad. But then you can't even comprehend or visualize how one pokemon can beat another pokemon. The only thing you go by is by what you've seen and you've seen nothing that is happening in this meta, so yes you are a failure.

 

Your earlier argument said that aerodactyl can run a sub set. So if running a sub set, it can't kill dnite.

 

252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 116-140 (64.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Edited February 12, 2015 by NikhilR

[Excelimpulse]

If I remember clearly, your momentum argument had something to do with explosion? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'd never run explosion to take down one pokemon. I'd use it in a situation where I'm about to die and take whatever I can with me. And I have heard of people sacking their sweepers to take down walls but I've never heard of someone sacking their walls to take down a sweeper.

A bulky gengar cannot effectively spin block a starmie with psychic. And using your own argument against you, slowbro would fail to be a counter to a dragonite when spikes are set up.

Of course it means that you're a failure because just because you haven't seen something alone is bad. But then you can't even comprehend or visualize how one pokemon can beat another pokemon. The only thing you go by is by what you've seen and you've seen nothing that is happening in this meta, so yes you are a failure.

Your earlier argument said that aerodactyl can run a sub set. So if running a sub set, it can't kill dnite.

252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 116-140 (64.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Pretty sure that isn't a cb aero either first. And what I mean is most people predict the cb aero and then have to flee against it. That's what I mean when dnitw forces it out and aero can sub down to leichi and then kill dnite And yes I mean momentum in game. When your the one always on the defensive. That lets dnite have a harder time to come in if your constantly fending off attacks or trying to counter. On the flip side dnite has an easy time coming in and finishing off the wall core you set up to stop it.

This comes back to your team build imo. Balance will get wrecked if your lead fails to with the lead fight. Because of not only dragonite power but because of the split in general. That is why I think the only way to really handle it if your on a stall or hyper offensive team.

The one way I found out to keep dnite at bay is with a metagross lead . And with it carrying lum berry lets me absorb any status to keep the pounding In my favor. The only switch out is other metagross lead other then that I havnt seen a lead that can take on metagross that is common. Correct me if I'm wrong. Plz because I just havnt seen one yet.

The whole point is if your running a balance team and the opponent has dnite if you win the lead fight and carry the momentum snore struggles to come in.

There is to many rock slide ice beam and 30% chance risk of being status to hit.

Like I said dnite I think is about surviving it. There are very few safe counters left for anything anymore. Let alone dnite

And gengar doesn't two hit k0 arc With sbomb? Im prolly wrong I've just never seen a arc come in on gengar and if I have it happens her few times especially when arc is barely used From what I have seen.

Like I said forgive me if I'm wrong I just don't scout people and only see what is thrown against me. i know what arc can wrong I just figured stab sbomb would two hit ko it Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[NikhilR]

I am only interested in having a discussion with you regarding the pokemon that can set up on dnite, not regarding the balance or how easily dnite switches in etc. 

 

So pls tell me, how do your fast pokemon that carry hp ice/icebeam/ice punch set up on dnite making that an advantage to yourself? Tell me how your gengar beats an arcanine.

[Excelimpulse]

I am only interested in having a discussion with you regarding the pokemon that can set up on dnite,now regarding the balance or how easily dnite switches in etc.

So pls tell me, how do your fast pokemon that carry hp ice/icebeam/ice punch set up on dnite making that an advantage to yourself? Tell me how your gengar beats an arcanine.

Say you choose to sac poke x. Doesn't matter who it is. gengar aero can either both sub because the person who has dnite will be locked into a move. they can either choose to flee or stay obv. But most people choose to run and keep dnite alive to come back and hit later for a hit and run. This is when gengar can A sub. B hp ice. Either or dnite is now irrelevant and the playing field is now in your hands.

What is worse facing gengar behind sub or dnite? Serious question because that is how you flip the tables on it.

Imo gengar behind sub is beyond scary you give it a free set up. You now get to face the poke with the thousand mkvesets behind a sub. With very few weakness.

Aero can do the same.

But sub aero can keep subing down to leichi then kill it or set up more.

Either way both can flip the tables on that person who uses dnite.

and I asked if sbomb could 2 hko arc idk if it can or not because I havnt tested it....so sorry for little knowledge on arc but I figured with spikes sludge bomb will 2hko it. Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[NikhilR]

Say you choose to sac poke x. Doesn't matter who it is. gengar aero can either both sub because the person who has dnite will be locked into a move. they can either choose to flee or stay obv. But most people choose to run and keep dnite alive to come back and hit later for a hit and run. This is when gengar can A sub. B hp ice. Either or dnite is now irrelevant and the playing field is now in your hands.

What is worse facing gengar behind sub or dnite? Serious question because that is how you flip the tables on it.

Imo gengar behind sub is beyond scary you give it a free set up. You now get to face the poke with the thousand mkvesets behind a sub. With very few weakness.

Aero can do the same.

But sub aero can keep subing down to leichi then kill it or set up more.

Either way both can flip the tables on that person who uses dnite.

and I asked if sbomb could 2 hko arc idk if it can or not because I havnt tested it....so sorry for little knowledge on arc but I figured with spikes sludge bomb will 2hko it.

 

I will keep attacking you till you're at 1 hp. In the case of Aero, I will switch to slowbro, and kill you or if you decide to switch out, you won't kill dnite again because you won't be at +1. This means that one of your threats has already gone down and dnite is still free to wreck havoc.

 

@bolded statement - how is your aero going to set up more after subbing down to liechi?

 

Dragonite can keep hitting gengar until gengar can sub no more. When that gengar cannot sub anymore, it won't be able to do anything to arcanine which is what you switch into at that point. 

 

So please tell me what your frightening gengar can possible do to Arcanine? The damage done to arcanine would depend on the ev spread. A timid 252 spak gengar max would do 

 

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Arcanine: 82-97 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Your gengar will need hp ice to kill dnite not sludgebomb thus giving arcanine a free switch in.

[Excelimpulse]

I will keep attacking you till you're at 1 hp. In the case of Aero, I will switch to slowbro, and kill you or if you decide to switch out, you won't kill dnite again because you won't be at +1. This means that one of your threats has already gone down and dnite is still free to wreck havoc.

@bolded statement - how is your aero going to set up more after subbing down to liechi?

Dragonite can keep hitting gengar until gengar can sub no more. When that gengar cannot sub anymore, it won't be able to do anything to arcanine which is what you switch into at that point.

So please tell me what your frightening gengar can possible do to Arcanine? The damage done to arcanine would depend on the ev spread. A timid 252 spak gengar max would do

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Arcanine: 82-97 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Your gengar will need hp ice to kill dnite not sludgebomb thus giving arcanine a free switch in.

Am I being a dick to you right now? No I didn't know you invest special def into arc now days but that's besides the point.

But like I said you can hp ice dnite if it chooses to stay. Thus becoming more like poker. and when you switch from Aero I hope you realize it has a sub to now and with leichi if you choose to break it. Either way you are now chosen to either sac your dnite.

But why would you ever stay in against either if them. Your solutions are based off of knowing my hand.

[NikhilR]

Am I being a uguu to you right now? No I didn't know you invest special def into arc now days but that's besides the point.

But like I said you can hp ice dnite if it chooses to stay. Thus becoming more like poker. and when you switch from Aero I hope you realize it has a sub to now and with leichi if you choose to break it. Either way you are now chosen to either sac your dnite.

But why would you ever stay in against either if them. Your solutions are based off of knowing my hand.

 

I'd prefer running a split defense arcanine with relaxed nature.

 

If you're referring to activating liechi at 25% health, then I don't think you can sub again since you'd be too weak to do so. So no it doesn't have a sub+liechi. I keep breaking your sub and the moment the msg pops up that liechi has been activated, I switch out. So I am still at an advantage.

 

This is because no one can predict late game scenarios and I'd want my dnite to try and win almost every scenario possible. And it's done that for me plenty of times in this meta.

[Excelimpulse]

I'd prefer running a split defense arcanine with relaxed nature.

If you're referring to activating liechi at 25% health, then I don't think you can sub again since you'd be too weak to do so. So no it doesn't have a sub+liechi. I keep breaking your sub and the moment the msg pops up that liechi has been activated, I switch out. So I am still at an advantage.

This is because no one can predict late game scenarios and I'd want my dnite to try and win almost every scenario possible. And it's done that for me plenty of times in this meta.

Yes or you play against a aero cb rock slide and it dies also.

Dragonite is beyond op if your looker screening(lol thought of that from halo lans) but the point is you dint know what that aero or genfar is throwing at you.

And the sub+leichi I'm on my phone so it auto corrected. I know you would have the advantage if you call my bluff. but the point is very few people run it and that can suprise and devistate your opponent. Most people running cb aero and if you think it's a sub your going against the odds.

That's bold and that's the samethibg with gengar.

[NikhilR]

Um yea discussing with Xcel isn't heading anywhere so I'm out.

[Excelimpulse]

People acting like I think dnite is garbo. It's not god status. It's dealable. You survive it. You dint just say hey look a dnite, vap go wish protect. That's competitive apparntky to people?

 

Edited February 12, 2015 by Noad

[DrCraig]

People acting like I think dnite is garbo. It's not god status. It's dealable. You survive it. You dint just say hey look a dnite, vap go wish protect. That's competitive apparntky to people?

What does that even mean lol

[Excelimpulse]

What does that even mean lol

I'm just bad. I have no rep because I have things I have to do in my life and can only be on select times to play in tournies. And even when I can hit the start I have to leave.

So the way I play is probably not even seen at all. Dnite gives me a headache but it's not hard to twist it. the old days I've relying on a poke to absorb a hit is outclassed rather then keeping the momentum in my favor by just predicting.

Yes I can be wrong but usually will have a way to finish it off. And if I don't? That person outplayed me gg to them .

[Gunthug]

I'm just bad. I have no rep because I have things I have to do in my life and can only be on select times to play in tournies. And even when I can hit the start I have to leave.

So the way I play is probably not even seen at all. Dnite gives me a headache but it's not hard to twist it. the old days I've relying on a poke to absorb a hit is outclassed rather then keeping the momentum in my favor by just predicting.

Yes I can be wrong but usually will have a way to finish it off. And if I don't? That person outplayed me gg to them .

Luckily the ban criteria isn't "can xcel beat this poke?" It's "does this Pokemon meet the criteria for an uber?" I showed you those uber criteria earlier

[Excelimpulse]

Luckily the ban criteria isn't "can xcel beat this poke?" It's "does this Pokemon meet the criteria for an uber?" I showed you those uber criteria earlier

and dnite does based off perfect prediction and acts as a hit an run poke.

Should I go get the guy that thinks sloking should be banned also?

Because that's all I'm seeing that dnite can hit you hard once on a solid team then is forced to switch slaking acts similiar.

But we know it's bad but your arguments for it are similiar. From what I see.

And inb4 the protect arguments come cause of traunt. How is any cb user any different? With protect you can easily see what is coming. Edited February 12, 2015 by Excelimpulse