[OU Discussion] Heracross

Robofiend · February 16, 2015

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 122-144 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

pretty easily avoided if you just scout it first :P

Edited February 16, 2015 by Robofiend

NikhilR · February 16, 2015

Forretress still checks it well, no matter the set. Extremespeed prevents Reversal as said before, which has to rely on a shaky speed stat with Sub or the prediction game with Endure. Show you have Swords Dance and it's almost guaranteed you have Reversal. Prediction game gone.

Bulky sets with leftovers have some stay-ability, but they aren't nearly as dangerous as CB abusers, stopped readily by our plethora of faster sweepers. Gyarados also does a pretty darn good job at scaring this little warrior beetle out. Drop some spikes and things start to look in your favor as the CB set requires constant free-switch ins and the Subversal set requires a certain HP.

All in all, I don't think it's banworthy as previously stated. It's resume isn't convincing enough to ban it alongside the readily broken Salamence, Tyranitar, and Dragonite.

tl;dr Not broken, just really good at what it's supposed to do... sweep with its physical prowess.

EDIT: Pretty obvious, but needed to add this too... Weezing obliterates it. None of the other banned pokes had a reliable counter like Weezing counters Heracross. Just food for thought.

Forretress can switch in, but in the end it'll just be set up bait for a sub/sd reversal set. If I show I have swords dance, something is going to go down. Even if I show swords dance, you'll still need to predict whether it's a guts set or reversal. You can't put that down to chances as "almost guaranteed" since nothing is guaranteed.

Most sets of hera will find it very hard to switch in. It can switch into things which have very little offense like forretress/blissey. If you have vaporeon or something to wish, then that spikes damage becomes pointless.

Imo it is ban worthy. If you're facing Heracross you're going to rely on some major rng that Megahorn misses otherwise it's going to be very scary, There's nothing used frequently in the tier that is fast enough to ohko it. Most people don't run psychic starmie since they prefer the recover/spin set, alakazam is rip, wing attack is pointless on aero. With the lack of hp flying which used to be there, it seems to me that hera is a problem.

Robofiend · February 16, 2015

Imo it is ban worthy. If you're facing Heracross you're going to rely on some major rng that Megahorn misses otherwise it's going to be very scary, There's nothing used frequently in the tier that is fast enough to ohko it. Most people don't run psychic starmie since they prefer the recover/spin set, alakazam is rip, wing attack is pointless on aero. With the lack of hp flying which used to be there, it seems to me that hera is a problem.

I've pointed this out before, but status just isn't a way to deal with a pokemon like Heracross. The only set it stops is Reversal, and last time I checked Gengar was sitting at nearly 50% usage (it's probably gone down but w/e).

Also, Reversal Hera is kinda.. bad. If it takes damage it's pretty quick to scout, assuming it takes a small amount of damage somewhere along the line:

-If it's got Leftovers it's a standard SD set

-If it doesn't have Leftovers but it uses SD then it's Reversal

-If it only attacks and hits like a ton of bricks then it's Choice Band

Also, you pointed this out, but Heracross takes advantage of a particular loophole in the metagame: people who use Forretress/Blissey/Slowbro all on one team are sitting ducks for it. However, it struggles to switch into most of the tier's more offensive walls and sweepers: Snorlax, Weezing, Gyarados, Gengar, Arcanine, Jolteon, Metagross, Flygon and.. a decent amount of other OU don't have to even worry about being revenge-killed. On the other side of the coin, Kingdra, Gyarados and Metagross all have an easy time switching in against common threats, and can set up similarly terrifying scenarios for their opponents with DD/Agility. Heracross is the epitome of the scary CB pokemon, but we're all familiar with the fact that CB is a scary item (with some drawbacks).

Lastly, Dugtrio's getting no love for revenge killing it with CB AA.

If Heracross usage gets really high i'll believe that it's broken, but until I see 35+% of teams using it I'm going to have some trouble believing that it's really as cancerous as the OP makes it out to be.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Robofiend

NikhilR · February 16, 2015

I've pointed this out before, but status just isn't a way to deal with a pokemon like Heracross. The only set it stops is Reversal, and last time I checked Gengar was sitting at nearly 50% usage (it's probably gone down but w/e).

Also, Reversal Hera is kinda.. bad. If it takes damage it's pretty quick to scout, assuming it takes a small amount of damage somewhere along the line:

-If it's got Leftovers it's a standard SD set

-If it doesn't have Leftovers but it uses SD then it's Reversal

-If it only attacks and hits like a ton of bricks then it's Choice Band

Also, you pointed this out, but Heracross takes advantage of a particular loophole in the metagame: people who use Forretress/Blissey/Slowbro all on one team are sitting ducks for it. However, it struggles to switch into most of the tier's more offensive walls and sweepers: Snorlax, Weezing, Gyarados, Gengar, Arcanine, Jolteon, Metagross, Flygon and.. a decent amount of other OU don't have to even worry about being revenge-killed. On the other side of the coin, Kingdra, Gyarados and Metagross all have an easy time switching in against common threats, and can set up similarly terrifying scenarios for their opponents with DD/Agility. Heracross is the epitome of the scary CB pokemon, but we're all familiar with the fact that CB is a scary item (with some drawbacks).

Lastly, Dugtrio's getting no love for revenge killing it with CB AA.

If Heracross usage gets really high i'll believe that it's broken, but until I see 35+% of teams using it I'm going to have some trouble believing that it's really as cancerous as the OP makes it out to be.

I don't think I mentioned anywhere in my post about statusing hera :huh:

You really can't call stab reversal bad, a move with 300 power. It depends on how you scout Hera's set or if you know a good way of doing so, pls let me know. Now say something dies like a snorlax using pursuit on starmie and Heracross comes out vs it. Do you stay in, would he sd, would he sub, or would he just go for the banded megahorn. are the questions you'll ask. You can only scout the type of heracross it is after you attack it/you switch out and by that time the match could be over easily. Say in this instance you switch snorlax to vaporeon, heracross can sub or SD. Vapo attacks and either breaks sub or does x amount of dmg which won't kill hera. By then you could have a potential +4 who can still sub to activate salac berry. My point is that unless you run weezing/arca/skarmory (lel trapped), you're going to get rekt by a heracross since they're amongst the few pokemon who can switch into hera with guaranteed safety.

Heracross can switch into ppl who use forretress/blissey but that doesn't mean it can't set up vs things like metagross etc. late game because it will still be faster. I'm not discussing CB Hera because imo it's easier to deal with this than a reversal hera which is very scary atm.

I guess only time will tell us about the situation.

Robofiend · February 16, 2015

You really can't call stab reversal bad, a move with 300 power. It depends on how you scout Hera's set or if you know a good way of doing so, pls let me know. Now say something dies like a snorlax using pursuit on starmie and Heracross comes out vs it. Do you stay in, would he sd, would he sub, or would he just go for the banded megahorn. are the questions you'll ask. You can only scout the type of heracross it is after you attack it/you switch out and by that time the match could be over easily.

Well yeah, Vaporeon doen't check any of the Heracross sets, thats why I used to steamroll wall teams with mine pre-update.

My point is that the checks are out there, if you're not using them then Heracross is going to be scary, similar to Metagross or Gyarados. Also, you didn't mention statusing Heracross, but people keep bringing up the fact that it has Guts and the fact that you can Burn it without realizing you're screwing yourself over.

Vaeldras · February 16, 2015

Another gimmick option could be agility aerodactyl, hue

Edit: maybe some more stuff with agility.

Scizor? hue again

Edited February 16, 2015 by Vaeldras

NikhilR · February 16, 2015

Well yeah, Vaporeon doen't check any of the Heracross sets, thats why I used to steamroll wall teams with mine pre-update.

My point is that the checks are out there, if you're not using them then Heracross is going to be scary, similar to Metagross or Gyarados. Also, you didn't mention statusing Heracross, but people keep bringing up the fact that it has Guts and the fact that you can Burn it without realizing you're screwing yourself over.

Yeah I'm using dugtrio atm to beat Hera and Metagross. The thing is that I don't think ppl intentionally status the hera. Sometimes when you're weezing/gengar vs a snorlax, it's a natural tendency to wow and the opponent can take advantage of this situation by switching in Hera and getting that boost. Then they can go to Arcanine or whatever to counter weezing/gar.

YagamiNoir · February 17, 2015

I think most of you are missing how Low Kick is superior as a Fighting STAB on Heracross; it's notable that 252/0 variants of Forretress are 2HKOed by Choice Band Low Kick due to it having 100 BP, and you can get the same accuracy but more damage on stuff like Metagross, Arcanine and Snorlax. 5 extra BP against Skarm/Swampert too, but eh. The only thing Brick Break is notable for is if you really want to OHKO Blissey with a CB or break screens, which is...really rare. I'm really suprised why no one has bothered using Low Kick yet, considering most of it's noteworthy targets are pretty heavy, bar maybe Blissey.

EDIT: As much as it is listed in the OP, little emphasis is given to it.

Edited February 17, 2015 by YagamiNoir

Robofiend · February 17, 2015

I think most of you are missing how Low Kick is superior as a Fighting STAB on Heracross; it's notable that 252/0 variants of Forretress are 2HKOed by Choice Band Low Kick due to it having 100 BP, and you can get the same accuracy but more damage on stuff like Metagross, Arcanine and Snorlax. 5 extra BP against Skarm/Swampert too, but eh. The only thing Brick Break is notable for is if you really want to OHKO Blissey with a CB or break screens, which is...really rare. I'm really suprised why no one has bothered using Low Kick yet, considering most of it's noteworthy targets are pretty heavy, bar maybe Blissey.

I've actually been thinking about this too. It's true that Low Kick provides more consistent damage on some metagame heavy hitters like Snorlax, Gyarados, and Metagross, but nothing's more embarrasing than getting killed by a Jolteon because you don't have the right moves for it:

232+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Low Kick (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 157-186 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

232+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Low Kick (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 16-20 (4.7 - 5.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

That aside, failing to OHKO Blissey is a problem, as it can pretty reliably cause Heracross to take entry damage from Spikes and Ice Beam/Seismic Toss. Lack of passive recovery makes Heracross even more vulnerable to the tier's faster sweepers. I think most players figure type diversity > raw damage output on something like Heracross. Brick Break is usually just a backup move in case Megahorn/Rockslide don't work, both are strong enough to hit the walls for heavy damage while still getting the passable damage on counters like Gengar and Gyarados. The way I see it, Hera's already got a tough choice between Rockslide, Megahorn, Fighting STAB, Facade and Pursuit (or thief, lol) so it's weird to consider running Brick Break to kill Blissey and Low Kick to hit other targets.

Imo, Facade and Theif are better options to check common Heracross counters like Weezing and Gengar, who resist fighting type anyway.

That said, it's still somewhat mysterious why Low Kick hasn't caught on yet. Once I can afford some shards I'm putting it on my Heracrosses.

YagamiNoir · February 17, 2015

I've actually been thinking about this too. It's true that Low Kick provides more consistent damage on some metagame heavy hitters like Snorlax, Gyarados, and Metagross, but nothing's more embarrasing than getting killed by a Jolteon because you don't have the right moves for it:

232+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Low Kick (40 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 157-186 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Low Kick (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 16-20 (4.7 - 5.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

That aside, failing to OHKO Blissey is a problem, as it can pretty reliably cause Heracross to take entry damage from Spikes and Ice Beam/Seismic Toss. Lack of passive recovery makes Heracross even more vulnerable to the tier's faster sweepers. I think most players figure type diversity > raw damage output on something like Heracross. Brick Break is usually just a backup move in case Megahorn/Rockslide don't work, both are strong enough to hit the walls for heavy damage while still getting the passable damage on counters like Gengar and Gyarados. The way I see it, Hera's already got a tough choice between Rockslide, Megahorn, Fighting STAB, Facade and Pursuit (or thief, lol) so it's weird to consider running Brick Break to kill Blissey and Low Kick to hit other targets.

Imo, Facade and Theif are better options to check common Heracross counters like Weezing and Gengar, who resist fighting type anyway.

That said, it's still somewhat mysterious why Low Kick hasn't caught on yet. Once I can afford some shards I'm putting it on my Heracrosses.

Although the accuracy is undesirable, Megahorn blows Jolteon away anyway. Low Kick does a maximum of 94% on Blissey, which is a 50% chance to OHKO after Spikes. If anything, Blissey is more prone to being worn down by passive damage than Heracross is, because it is a pivot that switches in on things, as much as it does have reliable recovery to patch that up. Both of your given scenarios are also not that relevant, given you assume only Heracross has the passive damage, and in that Heracross wouldn't really stay in on a safe Jolteon switch if it made it obvious that it's locked into Low Kick. Low Kick covers a lot more than Brick Break does in general, and I'd say running both Fighting moves is very redundant. Low Kick means Arcanine can no longer switch in safely factoring Intimidate, and it can also OHKO some variants of +1 Curselax. I guess my thought is that Low Kick is still superior to BB due to all these pros.

In regards to Facade, I think Weezing can still reliably wall a non-burned Heracross, so it's better off straight up attacking it anyways instead of giving it a free Guts boost and a 140 BP move to damage it with. Powerful as it is, I personally find Facade a pretty unreliable option, as, similar to your previous post, can sometimes make it a bit too obvious in regards to what the set is; you said in a former post that Reversal was eh, but as much as I'm ignorant of what's common and what is not in said regard, smart players will obviously not burn a Heracross when they know it's Guts.

Robofiend · February 17, 2015

In regards to Facade, I think Weezing can still reliably wall a non-burned Heracross, so it's better off straight up attacking it anyways instead of giving it a free Guts boost and a 140 BP move to damage it with. Powerful as it is, I personally find Facade a pretty unreliable option, as, similar to your previous post, can sometimes make it a bit too obvious in regards to what the set is; you said in a former post that Reversal was eh, but as much as I'm ignorant of what's common and what is not in said regard, smart players will obviously not burn a Heracross when they know it's Guts.

This is true, but good players can/do pair Heracross with things that are Targets for status in order to abuse Guts later. If you see a Slowbro and you have Toxic in your moveset, it's pretty easy to just unthinkingly try to Toxic it, disregarding the fact that your opponent can send in Heracross and start rekting you.

As stated earlier, Reversal is kinda bad in comparison for this reason. Heracross hits insanely hard at +2 and with Guts+CB it doesn't even have to set up.

Excelimpulse · February 17, 2015

So are we banning the bug or no?

YagamiNoir · February 17, 2015

So are we banning the bug or no?

Relax, Dragonite wasn't banned long ago, and Dragonite was the main reason why running a Cross was a bad idea. More practical consensus is needed.

codylramey · February 17, 2015

This is true, but good players can/do pair Heracross with things that are Targets for status in order to abuse Guts later. If you see a Slowbro and you have Toxic in your moveset, it's pretty easy to just unthinkingly try to Toxic it, disregarding the fact that your opponent can send in Heracross and start rekting you.

As stated earlier, Reversal is kinda bad in comparison for this reason. Heracross hits insanely hard at +2 and with Guts+CB it doesn't even have to set up.

well technically you have to set up for both guts and CB. You just have to rely on ur opponent to have a status user thats not twave or sleep powder and bring hera in on the status move.

Also any thoughts on rest talk hera?

Shaniqualela · February 17, 2015

This is true, but good players can/do pair Heracross with things that are Targets for status in order to abuse Guts later. If you see a Slowbro and you have Toxic in your moveset, it's pretty easy to just unthinkingly try to Toxic it, disregarding the fact that your opponent can send in Heracross and start rekting you.

As stated earlier, Reversal is kinda bad in comparison for this reason. Heracross hits insanely hard at +2 and with Guts+CB it doesn't even have to set up.

team preview pls

Murder · February 19, 2015

Chillll dont ban it ;)

Robofiend · February 20, 2015

well technically you have to set up for both guts and CB. You just have to rely on ur opponent to have a status user thats not twave or sleep powder and bring hera in on the status move.

Also any thoughts on rest talk hera?

confirmed trash, sleep doesn't give the Guts boost and the metagame's too fast for rest to really be useful (not to mention that Hera with only 2 move options is a lot easier to play around).

Shaniqualela · February 20, 2015

But sleep does activate guts.... It just doesn't power up facade

Excelimpulse · February 20, 2015

Bulk up with 200 hp evs is pretty amazing and 100 att evs with 196 speed. Still hits hard especially with low kick and after one bulk up its pretty good. Not to op tho and checks gyardos without bounce.

Robofiend · February 21, 2015

But sleep does activate guts.... It just doesn't power up facade

I stand corrected. Rest/talk sets still suffer really badly from a lack of move options (as well as having to rely on RNG to select the "right" move)

fredrichnietze · February 21, 2015

Also any thoughts on rest talk hera?

I stand corrected. Rest/talk sets still suffer really badly from a lack of move options (as well as having to rely on RNG to select the "right" move)

^this

also dugtrio with AA trap and kill talkers easy. things that can tnak a hit or can outspeed and 1hko with flying/psychic/fire wipe out sleep heras easy. examples being char, aero, skarm, dugtrio, starmie(unless hp/spdef invest to live the psychic), and even odd things like defensive altaria.

TL;DR hera needs speed to be a offensive threat which means getting to low hp + salac are non optional.

EDIT: or cb hera but thats easily revenge killed.

Edited February 21, 2015 by fredrichnietze

BurntZebra · February 22, 2015

^this

also dugtrio with AA trap and kill talkers easy. things that can tnak a hit or can outspeed and 1hko with flying/psychic/fire wipe out sleep heras easy. examples being char, aero, skarm, dugtrio, starmie(unless hp/spdef invest to live the psychic), and even odd things like defensive altaria.

TL;DR hera needs speed to be a offensive threat which means getting to low hp + salac are non optional.

EDIT: or cb hera but thats easily revenge killed.

I don't really think the revenge kill argument is that strong because that implies that you are basically sacking something to bring in dugtrio to kill heracross. Not to mention jolly dugtrio doesn't even ohko heracross with aerial ace if its just a liechi sub reversal set. Adamant has a 50% to ohko if 4 hp on heracross. Choice band easily ohkos but limits dugtrio so meh. Also dragonite was banned even though it could be "revenge killed" by wynaut and tyranitar could be revenge killed by dugtrio assuming it didn't get 2 or more dragon dances

Excelimpulse · February 22, 2015

I have one so go ahead and ban it. Lol I didn't use dnite or ttar anyways so that statement is irrelevant.

All seriousness skar,fore wall it pretty good. gengar can make a great check to it and samething with clops.

BurntZebra · February 22, 2015

just wondering, what actually counters heracross? People mention arcanine/weezing/gengar but arcanine+gengar are both 2hkoed by heracross and weezing can only 3hko heracross with flamethrower. 0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Heracross: 66-78 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO. Gengar doesn't really counter it either since it is 2hko'ed by thief and only 2hkos heracross with psychic which is rarely seen, 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 118-140 (70.6 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Not to mention heracross can get its attacked boosted by a will o wisp that gengar loves to spam so much. Dusclops was also mentioned as a "counter" which I have to disagree with because heracross 3hkos (or rarely 2hko) and dusclops in return only 4hkos with seismic toss, and again a will o wisp vs heracross will shorten dusclops' life span greatly, with thief doing over 75% damage to max def clops. Arcanine can come in vs megahorns because of its intimidate ability and fire typing but is 2hko'ed by earthquake, and 3hko'ed by rock slide. Heracross also outspeeds arcanine and isn't ohko'ed by flamethrower either so it can usually afford to stay in and pray for a rock slide flinch, which spells defeat for arcanine as it is killed by the 3rd rock slide, -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Heracross's speed is also quite useful in OU as it outpaces many offensive threats with its 85 base speed. If heracross was paper and couldn't take any hits, it probably wouldn't be banworthy, but because it is not easily ohko'ed as flying stab is VERY uncommon in OU without salamence/dragonite and most other attacks fail to ohko it, even 2hko it in the case of many walls in OU. In addition to the choice band set, the endure reversal set is also a completely viable set on its own, as it causes a lot of mind games vs opponents who aren't sure whether to burn it or not. Swarm Heracross beats weezing 1v1 if weezing doesn't try to burn it as 2 flamethrowers put heracross in swarm range and +4 swarm megahorn ohkos max def weezing. It is a similar story with an sd guts set as well, assuming the weezing tries to burn heracross, heracross will ohko weezing at +4 guts megahorn. Even though it may not seem like heracross has a lot of wiggle room in what it can run, it still is very versatile in the evs and movesets and abilities it can run, all of which pose immediate threats and seem to be dominating the team building process of many players. (I don't know how to use multiple paragraphs)

Excelimpulse · February 23, 2015

just wondering, what actually counters heracross? People mention arcanine/weezing/gengar but arcanine+gengar are both 2hkoed by heracross and weezing can only 3hko heracross with flamethrower. 0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Heracross: 66-78 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO. Gengar doesn't really counter it either since it is 2hko'ed by thief and only 2hkos heracross with psychic which is rarely seen, 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Thief vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 118-140 (70.6 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Not to mention heracross can get its attacked boosted by a will o wisp that gengar loves to spam so much. Dusclops was also mentioned as a "counter" which I have to disagree with because heracross 3hkos (or rarely 2hko) and dusclops in return only 4hkos with seismic toss, and again a will o wisp vs heracross will shorten dusclops' life span greatly, with thief doing over 75% damage to max def clops. Arcanine can come in vs megahorns because of its intimidate ability and fire typing but is 2hko'ed by earthquake, and 3hko'ed by rock slide. Heracross also outspeeds arcanine and isn't ohko'ed by flamethrower either so it can usually afford to stay in and pray for a rock slide flinch, which spells defeat for arcanine as it is killed by the 3rd rock slide, -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Heracross's speed is also quite useful in OU as it outpaces many offensive threats with its 85 base speed. If heracross was paper and couldn't take any hits, it probably wouldn't be banworthy, but because it is not easily ohko'ed as flying stab is VERY uncommon in OU without salamence/dragonite and most other attacks fail to ohko it, even 2hko it in the case of many walls in OU. In addition to the choice band set, the endure reversal set is also a completely viable set on its own, as it causes a lot of mind games vs opponents who aren't sure whether to burn it or not. Swarm Heracross beats weezing 1v1 if weezing doesn't try to burn it as 2 flamethrowers put heracross in swarm range and +4 swarm megahorn ohkos max def weezing. It is a similar story with an sd guts set as well, assuming the weezing tries to burn heracross, heracross will ohko weezing at +4 guts megahorn. Even though it may not seem like heracross has a lot of wiggle room in what it can run, it still is very versatile in the evs and movesets and abilities it can run, all of which pose immediate threats and seem to be dominating the team building process of many players. (I don't know how to use multiple paragraphs)

Gengar comes in and can ohko. Arc can flame then espeed it. And arguing one attack that nobody is really gonna spam to stop gengar only really puts it at risk. Same with spamming rock slide when steels can conpletky wall it.

Team building is becoming harder and harder with more bans and making things more centralized.

Heracross is now one of the best sweepers we have and offensive team building you almost have to include it.

But any steel type can reliably come in and force it out. Seeming you can't spam eq due to gengar threat.

I honestly don't see how it can be banned. It can run multiple sets, yes but it's still only hitting on the physical side. Making anything that has bulk can usually come in and force it out.

That's imo. I've been using a heracross and yes it's good but steels gengar all cause issues. And if their setting spikes it makes it ten times harder to bring heracross in. It's bulky but spikes hinder it.

Also just thought that zard can come in on none rs and set up all day also. Edited February 23, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[OU Discussion] Heracross

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