DrCraig Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Viable Moves: Attacking Status Megahorn Endure Brick Break Swords Dance Reversal Bulk Up Rock Slide Resttalk Pursuit Focus Punch Earthquake Facade Flail Aerial Ace Rock Blast Low Kick Common Sets (Give me input if I'm wrong) Endursal Ability: Swarm Item: Salac Nature: Adamant EVs: 4HP 252ATK 252SPE Moveset: - Endure - Reversal - Megahorn - Rock Slide / Swords Dance Bulky Guts Ability: Guts Item: Leftovers Nature: Adamant / Maybe Jolly EVs: 200~HP 252ATK Rest SPE Moveset: - Megahorn - Brick Break - Pursuit - Rock Slide Choice Bander / All Out Attacker Ability: Guts / Swarm Item: Choice Band / Leftovers Nature: Adamant / Jolly EVs: 4HP 252ATK 252SPE Moveset: - Focus Punch / Pursuit - Meghorn - Brick Break - Rock Slide I'll leave the calcs up to people presenting arguements, and I'd prefer if they were based around these sets. My opinion: Personally I think Heracross is a huge offensive pressure and right now there is not much there to stop it. It 2hkos a majority of the meta, reversal/megahorn ohkos the other half. Weezing seems to be the strongest counter which can easily feed Hera a Guts boost. Bulky Hera is also capable of surviving multiple flamethrowers, and pursuit trapping ghost types such as Gengar and Dusclops which otherwise stop it. The most overpowering aspect of Hera in my eyes is megahorn and its spamming ability. Yea the shit is resisted by some pokes, but othewise it ohkos/2hkos the meta (calcs plz). I'm not in the mood to type anymore.. Hera fine in OU, or to the dungeon? [Clarification: I don't have a defined stance on putting it in OU or Ubers, but if there is an argument strong enough to make a change, I'd rather the change happen sooner than later.] Edited February 22, 2015 by LeTyrone Noad, dedegendut and fredrichnietze 3 Link to comment
DestructX Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 57-67 (28.9 - 34%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 45-54 (22.8 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery DrCraig and LegendP 2 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 57-67 (28.9 - 34%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 45-54 (22.8 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Edited February 16, 2015 by BurntZebra Link to comment
DestructX Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) -1 252 Atk Choice Band Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 92-110 (46.7 - 55.8%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery now that heracross has pursuit i doubt theres a reason to teach it earthquake and with no mence/dnite*, heracross can abuse focus punch since it forces a bunch of switches Edited February 16, 2015 by DestructX Link to comment
Gunthug Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 What separates hera from other reversal users is that, since the SD + 3 attacks guts set is so viable, it's very difficult to risk statusing it. Add that it gets stab on that reversal and a swarm-boosted megahorn for coverage (which, at +2, does unholy damage to anything that doesnt get 4x resist on it) and we're looking at a scary ass bug Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yes, ban chain. ban heracross again too. To op. Rolling eyes. Seriousness tho. Why not just ban reversal instead of going down the list. Link to comment
DrCraig Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yes, ban chain. ban heracross again too. To op. Rolling eyes. Seriousness tho. Why not just ban reversal instead of going down the list. Why ban reversal if its the most OP on heracross? Kabutops and friends don't deserve that kind of treatment. :( Havsha 1 Link to comment
Senile Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 now that heracross has pursuit i doubt theres a reason to teach it earthquake and with no mence/dnite*, heracross can abuse focus punch since it forces a bunch of switches I mean, you just gave a reason to use Earthquake, Arcanine. Plus, it does (slightly) more damage to, say, Metagross than Megahorn/Brick Break would. With that being said, yeah, EQ is a pretty shitty option overall. Link to comment
Excelimpulse Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Why ban reversal if its the most OP on heracross? Kabutops and friends don't deserve that kind of treatment. :( so we just go on ban chain till the wall and stall meta is back because I'm afraid that's where it's headed. Were gonna be left with sweepers that can 2hko walls unless cb and then prediction will be to op with stall. Kabutoos and friends dint need reversal especially on rain team. Btw you should make kingdra thread too. Chesto resto op. Paired with scizor now oh god. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 At this point I'm not convinced, although Heracross is good it's stopped cold by Weezing/Gengar (afraid of Guts? don't status it, dummy). The metagame needs some more time balance out before we'll know for sure that Heracross is broken. I think it's a healthy check to Snorlax, Blissey and Slowbro and that Reversal is pretty risky given the fact that Arcanine is actually pretty viable. Gyarados also checks Fight/Bug combos pretty well. so we just go on ban chain till the wall and stall meta is back because I'm afraid that's where it's headed. Were gonna be left with sweepers that can 2hko walls unless cb and then prediction will be to op with stall. Kabutoos and friends dint need reversal especially on rain team. Btw you should make kingdra thread too. Chesto resto op. Paired with scizor now oh god. Omfg just stahp with this "ban chain" shit. Make a real argument rather than attacking the tiering process. The rest of the community respects how we do things, if you want to be taken seriously then please do the same. PandaJJ, Vaeldras, CatioN and 3 others 6 Link to comment
jayfeatskydd Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Could definitely add sub as a viable option to the reversal set. I've been saying Hera has be strong af since the Mence ban. Does it really need a ban though? Can't wait to see the calcs. Link to comment
RysPicz Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) so we just go on ban chain till the wall and stall meta is back because I'm afraid that's where it's headed. Were gonna be left with sweepers that can 2hko walls unless cb and then prediction will be to op with stall. Kabutoos and friends dint need reversal especially on rain team. Btw you should make kingdra thread too. Chesto resto op. Paired with scizor now oh god. Please... stop... At this point I'm not convinced, although Heracross is good it's stopped cold by Weezing/Gengar (afraid of Guts? don't status it, dummy). The metagame needs some more time balance out before we'll know for sure that Heracross is broken. I think it's a healthy check to Snorlax, Blissey and Slowbro and that Reversal is pretty risky given the fact that Arcanine is actually pretty viable. Gyarados also checks Fight/Bug combos pretty well. This. I think that actually Heracross is one of reasons why Arcanine is getting more usage, though Arcanine is good on it's own. (which, at +2, does unholy damage to anything that doesnt get 4x resist on it) +2 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 237-279 (90.4 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO i-i EDIT: My bad, lvl 100 +2 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 123-144 (90.4 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO Here's lvl 50 Oh welcome back 4f! I quit the game not the forums pleb. [spoiler]your mom tolerates now you, sitting on forums so late?[/spoiler] Edited February 16, 2015 by RysPicz Link to comment
Gunthug Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 +2 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 123-144 (90.4 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO Here's lvl 50 +2 Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. Aggron: 98-116 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Obv aggron is shit on by fighting tho so doesnt really matter. what else 4x resists bug? aero i guess but that probably takes similar damage to gengar. so yeah even 4x resist cant really handle it Link to comment
DrCraig Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 +2 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 123-144 (90.4 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO Here's lvl 50 Oh welcome back 4f! Nobody runs squishy Gengar anymore. Bulky Gengar is the superior build atm. Here's some relevant calcs: 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 44-52 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 11.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 87-103 (52 - 61.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Gengar: 42-50 (25.1 - 29.9%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 196+ Def Gengar: 85-100 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery DaftCoolio, Instagramlol and Robofiend 3 Link to comment
DestructX Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 +2 Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. Aggron: 98-116 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Obv aggron is shit on by fighting tho so doesnt really matter. what else 4x resists bug? aero i guess but that probably takes similar damage to gengar. so yeah even 4x resist cant really handle it +2 252+ Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 46-55 (26.7 - 31.9%) -- 49.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (assuming people use 252hp / def on skarmory now because of thunder/fire punch) Link to comment
Toast Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 +2 Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. Aggron: 98-116 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Obv aggron is shit on by fighting tho so doesnt really matter. what else 4x resists bug? aero i guess but that probably takes similar damage to gengar. so yeah even 4x resist cant really handle it aggron and aero isnt 4x from bug, stop smoking weed Vaeldras and RysPicz 2 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 aggron and aero isnt 4x from bug, stop smoking weed i swear someone told me rock resists bug today. ugh back to the type charts i guess Toast and Vaeldras 2 Link to comment
Artemiseta Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 just cause someone asked what 4x resist bug charizard Link to comment
caughtem Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 While we're doing Swarm SD Hera calcs +2 252 Atk Swarm Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 179-211 (90.8 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO Robofiend 1 Link to comment
SuzPeX Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) 252+ Atk Choice Band Swarm Heracross Brick Break vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Keen Eye Skarmory: 58 - 70 (33.7 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers Skarm perfectly walls this savage beast even at plus 2 it only gets ohko'd by focus punch while getting hit extremely hard by AA (as shown below) if they did take the time to set up on you, you could hit it with AA while coming in with something of a higher speed and revenge kill it. (This is purely situational) +2 252+ Atk Choice Band Swarm Heracross Focus Punch vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Keen Eye Skarmory: 234 - 276 (136 - 160.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers 252+ Atk Choice Band Swarm Heracross Focus Punch vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Keen Eye Skarmory: 118 - 139 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers 0 Atk Keen Eye Skarmory Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP/0 Def Swarm Heracross: 144 - 172 (92.9 - 111%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO I'm fairly new here but, this is my opinion. I don't really know all the meta that well. I just wanted to add this mon in for discussion to help better assist the discussion. Edited February 16, 2015 by SuzPeX Link to comment
RysPicz Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) +2 252+ Atk Choice Band Swarm Heracross Focus Punch vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Leftovers Keen Eye Skarmory: 234 - 276 (136 - 160.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers It would be really, really hard to get a swords dance boost, get yourself locked through CB, and then fire off a Focus Punch :P E: 0 Atk Keen Eye Skarmory Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP/0 Def Swarm Heracross: 144 - 172 (92.9 - 111%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO Skarm can use Drill Peck (which it used to, now I think they are all running full defensive set without even one attacking move) Edited February 16, 2015 by RysPicz DoubleJ and Robofiend 2 Link to comment
SuzPeX Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yeah I kinda derped but Drill peck ohkos hera. and I was later informed it get dp from ferrow Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Pursuit hasn't proven to be that deadly. Most of the Gengars these days are Disable + Sub to really put the hurt on Curse-Lax + CB users. Also when they don't have Disable, they always seem to get that SpDef drop on me with Shadow Ball hahahaha. It's two for two in Officials when I lead trap an opposing lead Gengar. Nevertheless, this thing is now a definite A+ rank, bordering on S rank, since it is now the best physical sweeper we have. Without Dragonite, pokemon with resistance to insanely OP CB STAB Base 120 Megahorn went down by one, as well as something that can wipe away any thought of Reversal with Extremespeed. Arcanine usage is starting to sky rocket since it is the only poke with a reliable priority (Extremespeed) to prevent any of these Reversal sweeps. With all of this said though, I personally would not support banning Heracross. It doesn't have the speed or coverage to make Megahorn a broken move, nor does it have the variability to truly threaten most defensive stoppers. Forretress still checks it well, no matter the set. Extremespeed prevents Reversal as said before, which has to rely on a shaky speed stat with Sub or the prediction game with Endure. Show you have Swords Dance and it's almost guaranteed you have Reversal. Prediction game gone. Bulky sets with leftovers have some stay-ability, but they aren't nearly as dangerous as CB abusers, stopped readily by our plethora of faster sweepers. Gyarados also does a pretty darn good job at scaring this little warrior beetle out. Drop some spikes and things start to look in your favor as the CB set requires constant free-switch ins and the Subversal set requires a certain HP. All in all, I don't think it's banworthy as previously stated. It's resume isn't convincing enough to ban it alongside the readily broken Salamence, Tyranitar, and Dragonite. tl;dr Not broken, just really good at what it's supposed to do... sweep with its physical prowess. EDIT: Pretty obvious, but needed to add this too... Weezing obliterates it. None of the other banned pokes had a reliable counter like Weezing counters Heracross. Just food for thought. Edited February 16, 2015 by DoubleJ Robofiend, Anjovies, TheRealPhatiman and 3 others 6 Link to comment
flavajabari Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 someone pls calc CB guts facade hera vs weez, i dunno how, halp Link to comment
dedegendut Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 122-144 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery DaftCoolio 1 Link to comment
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