[OU Discussion] Heracross

[DoubleJ]

^ agree with ThinkNice on this.

[KingBowser]

Give us fairy typing please, granbull too stronk.

[NikhilR]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you are acting like taking out Blissey/Snorlax is a higher priority than taking out things like Heracross/Metagross. That Dugtrio now chooses for a CB is not centralizing because Heracross is around now. CB Dugtrio does a lot more things. That being said Heracross and Metagross are both very high threats in the metagame, much bigger threats than that Snorlax or Blissey are in this physically orientated metagame, both are maybe worthy of the S rank, so using a Dugtroi for that does not really prove how banworthy Heracross is. It has a lot more uses.

 

I guess you're right Think. Atm it feels like priorities have changed. I just feel that people run banded dugtrio mainly for heracross/metagross and yes it seems to take out a lot of other pokemon like blaziken/medicham as well making it strong. The reason I come to the conclusion of banded dugtrio being used for hera/metagross, is because if both get banned, then banded dugtrio would be seen far more less and we'd either see a spak killer dugtrio or probably none at all. 

Edited February 23, 2015 by NikhilR

[OldKeith]

Mindless setup - setting up with little or no risk, then sweeping. Due to hard hitters being overpowered, this strategy works. It is not uncommon to see people with teams that have no strategy or purpose other than mindlessly bringing a setup sweeper, setting up then hitting as many things as it can, hard. Heracross is one of the pokemon that sets up with relative ease, and is too hard to stop, unless you run specific counters. I think it ruins strategic team building, forcing me to run a weezing or a skarmory just to stop it. 

[Excelimpulse]

I guess you're right Think. Atm it feels like priorities have changed. I just feel that people run banded dugtrio mainly for heracross/metagross and yes it seems to take out a lot of other pokemon like blaziken/medicham as well making it strong. The reason I come to the conclusion of banded dugtrio being used for hera/metagross, is because if both get banned, then banded dugtrio would be seen far more less and we'd either see a spak killer dugtrio or probably none at all.

# FREE SALAMENCE

Nik what if I were to tell you I run a gengar that can't be trapped. Some people in mauville have seen it but I'm not disclosing my moveset on here yet cause I'd rather have it wreck in a tourney, when real life goes away.

If you want to know the set, pm me but I don't want it on a forum thread.

and who says my flygon is cb? Superman teams have to keep the momentum and jolt and star provide threats but I usually have to run pursuit lax for those issues.

Superman teams also make it to where most of the hard hitters left have a hard time coming in and forces the opponent to guess without spamming easy. Also lets me set up on spike users and lets them waste 2-3 moves.

I dint run it just for cross, but for most physical cb pokes like I said above.

Only if I had mence.....maybe someday

[Draekyn]

Not a superman team thread tho

[codylramey]

IS there a reason sub reversal is being mentioned more than endure reversal?

[ThinkNice]

IS there a reason sub reversal is being mentioned more than endure reversal?

Because sub is superior.

[codylramey]

Because sub is superior.

Why?

[OrangeManiac]

Why?

Because no one in the people who post in competitive alley can predict and therefor we pick the alternative that requires no prediction to get to the max Reversal power range.

[fredrichnietze]

I don't really think the revenge kill argument is that strong because that implies that you are basically sacking something to bring in dugtrio to kill heracross. Not to mention jolly dugtrio doesn't even ohko heracross with aerial ace if its just a liechi sub reversal set. Adamant has a 50% to ohko if 4 hp on heracross. Choice band easily ohkos but limits dugtrio so meh. Also dragonite was banned even though it could be "revenge killed" by wynaut and tyranitar could be revenge killed by dugtrio assuming it didn't get 2 or more dragon dances

think of it as a solid check. no non sub or endure + salac hera can sweep a team if dugtrio is around to solidly stop it after you get one kill. this forces hera to either run 2 moves to outspeed everything(and then have to worry about priority) or run the risk of getting revenge killed.

 

 (I don't know how to use multiple paragraphs)

plz learn. also ctr + shift + V = paste in plain txt.

 

Psychic doesn't ohko????wat

https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

learn how to use this and come back when you have plz

 

It sounds like the Heracross you guys use have like 8 moves, I think that's why it is sweeping the tier.

this is why u are a doctor

 

Swords dance
Megahorn
Low kick
Rock slide

Master race

gengar

flygon

bulky cb gyara

skarm

metagross (73.8% chance to 2hko standard agility set if adamant hera which means if meta switches on anything not low kick hera is in trouble)

weezing

defensive arcanine

dusklops (cm + psychic)

aero (252+ Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 130-154 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

crobat (252+ Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 112-132 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

vaporeon (roar is kewl u should try it)

 

and all sorts of checks like dugtrio, espeon, zam, charizard, ect....

 

spellcheck.

i work with children so i think im good

 

Because sub is superior.

^^^

 

Why?

hera uses endure!

other pokemon uses sub!

hera gets wrecked!

 

and also status and intimidate and many other things.

[codylramey]

Something worthy to point out is that as a l8 game sweeper/surpise poke this thing can be deadly even w/o proper set up. Even if salac is set off one way or another by other means he can sweep a weakened team.

[DrCraig]

# FREE SALAMENCE

Nik what if I were to tell you I run a gengar that can't be trapped. Some people in mauville have seen it but I'm not disclosing my moveset on here yet cause I'd rather have it wreck in a tourney, when real life goes away.

If you want to know the set, pm me but I don't want it on a forum thread.

and who says my flygon is cb? Superman teams have to keep the momentum and jolt and star provide threats but I usually have to run pursuit lax for those issues.

Superman teams also make it to where most of the hard hitters left have a hard time coming in and forces the opponent to guess without spamming easy. Also lets me set up on spike users and lets them waste 2-3 moves.

I dint run it just for cross, but for most physical cb pokes like I said above.

Only if I had mence.....maybe someday

Nobody cares about your hidden nukes that you plan to bomb the officials with.

This is not relevant.

[Shaniqualela]

It's probably sub/disable and he thinks he's a genius

[Robofiend]

Because sub is superior subperior.

 

As far as the earlier post, you hit the main points right on the head: there are a few checks and even a couple of pretty hard counters that stop various Heracross sets, but it can elect to run different moves to cover these counters if needed. 

 

As for the whole "counters" logic: Heracross is (kind of) similar to something like Keldeo or Talonflame in XY OU. If you send in Chansey expecting to absorb a Choice Specs Scald and all of a sudden Keldeo's subbing and boosting with CM, you're going to wish you had brought in your Slowbrah in instead. Maybe you brought M-Venusaur, and all of a sudden you're taking a Specs HP Flying to the face. Similarly, Tyranitar seems like a great way to stop Talonflame until it U-turns on you. Or, if you send in Heatran expecting to wall and wear down the CB set with Status or scare it out with Roar, you could suddenly face the harsh reality of a Taunt/SD/Swords Dance Talonflame that is going to boost to at least +2 before you can get something else into play. 

 

It's also true that really offensive pokemon (like Heracross) do limit teambuilding a lot. Your XY team can get rolled pretty quickly if you don't have some options to stop Keldeo or Landorus, similar to how your OU team can get totally rekt if you don't bring anything that absorbs a blow or 3 from a Heracross/Gyarados/Metagross. Hell, remember when you absolutely needed Snorlax/Blissey to take care of Starmie? It's not like you need lots of walls to manage Heracross, there are offensive options to do that. This is different from Tyranitar, Salamence or Dragonite, all of whom were so offensive that you had to run ultra specific counters (Defensive Hitmontop, Skarm, Slowbro, etc.) 

 

Like you said, Hera doesn't seem to sweep with "little effort," which is the whole reason I've been saying it's not banworthy yet

Edited February 24, 2015 by Robofiend

[KingBowser]

In the given meta state, I feel heracross is deserving of a banning. I see heracross as a poke that punishes players that don't give much offensive presence. But in the current meta game, there isnt much that can do so. I'm talking about fast pokes that can switch in and force it out, and still have offensive presence, such as Salamence/Dnite did. If Heracross is jolly and swordances, gyarados has to be at full hp and carry bounce inorder to kill heracross. So the only things that are switching into heracross will be walls. Limiting to always carrying weezing/Arcanine, in hopes of your opponent mispredicting or having the wrong moveset. Weezing has to know first if there is a heracross on the opposing team, else it can't do its job. Always fearing statusing heracross, and resulting in heracross being an unstoppable poke that will easily gain a kill everytime it comes in. Such a high reward for heracross, unlike the other guts user, heracross speed limits more those who can revenege kill it. Reversal is just pretty skilless and makes bad players look good. I dont think a win condition should just be rewarded for opponent not having a priority user/weezing. Seeing as most priority moves are terrible.

+1 252 Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 240-283 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

[Excelimpulse]

In the given meta state, I feel heracross is deserving of a banning. I see heracross as a poke that punishes players that don't give much offensive presence. But in the current meta game, there isnt much that can do so. I'm talking about fast pokes that can switch in and force it out, and still have offensive presence, such as Salamence/Dnite did. If Heracross is jolly and swordances, gyarados has to be at full hp and carry bounce inorder to kill heracross. So the only things that are switching into heracross will be walls. Limiting to always carrying weezing/Arcanine, in hopes of your opponent mispredicting or having the wrong moveset. Weezing has to know first if there is a heracross on the opposing team, else it can't do its job. Always fearing statusing heracross, and resulting in heracross being an unstoppable poke that will easily gain a kill everytime it comes in. Such a high reward for heracross, unlike the other guts user, heracross speed limits more those who can revenege kill it. Reversal is just pretty skilless and makes bad players look good. I dont think a win condition should just be rewarded for opponent not having a priority user/weezing. Seeing as most priority moves are terrible.

+1 252 Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 240-283 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

If there isn't much offensive presence now like you said that can come in to stop heracross, what do you think it will be like after its gone? Edited February 24, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DrCraig]

If there isn't much offensive presence now like you said that can come in to stop heracross, what do you think it will be like after its gone?

The meta after isn't the problem at hand, Heracross is. Who knows, maybe there will be even more offensive threats that Heracross stepped on, but that isn't important.

[Excelimpulse]

The meta after isn't the problem at hand, Heracross is. Who knows, maybe there will be even more offensive threats that Heracross stepped on, but that isn't important.

Oh dear god, do you think we're ever going to get anywhere if you don't think about the future? or do you think we will end up in the same position as 4 months ago? So take the slope theory somewhere else. It's not a theory, you don't think curse lax won't be an issue then? Come on now

Heracross isn't even a problem And if it is spend more then 10 min on your team build. Edited February 24, 2015 by Excelimpulse

[DrCraig]

Oh dear god, do you think we're ever going to get anywhere if you don't think about the future? or do you think we will end up in the same position as 4 months ago? So take the slope theory somewhere else. It's not a theory, you don't think curse lax won't be an issue then? Come on now
Heracross isn't even a problem And if it is spend more then 10 min on your team build.

Your Tiering Theory =/= The Tiering Theory Edited February 24, 2015 by DrCraig

[BurntZebra]

Oh dear god, do you think we're ever going to get anywhere if you don't think about the future? or do you think we will end up in the same position as 4 months ago? So take the slope theory somewhere else. It's not a theory, you don't think curse lax won't be an issue then? Come on now

Heracross isn't even a problem And if it is spend more then 10 min on your team build.

so what you're saying we should keep OP heracross because if we got rid of it, other OP pokemon would become too OP? 10/10 argument

[DrCraig]

so what you're saying we should keep OP heracross because if we got rid of it, other OP pokemon would become too OP? 10/10 argument

no zbera u donut know anything
lurn how 2 make a proper team first omg

[Excelimpulse]

so what you're saying we should keep OP heracross because if we got rid of it, other OP pokemon would become too OP? 10/10 argument

Yea then we have 15 ubers if we keep doing what you guys want. Exactly why not thinking about the future puts us in the same situation as before.

And fyi heracross isn't op. But you know what fine ban it idc, quicker we go through all the bans the better and quicker it will become when we have to start from scratch again. So I change my mind heracross is beyond op I can't stop it with anything. One coverage move that has a chance of missing and is never spammed earlier makes it op. Plz ban, maybe then you won't because you guys like doing the opposite.

You have my vote plz ban

[ThinkNice]

In the given meta state, I feel heracross is deserving of a banning. I see heracross as a poke that punishes players that don't give much offensive presence. But in the current meta game, there isnt much that can do so. I'm talking about fast pokes that can switch in and force it out, and still have offensive presence, such as Salamence/Dnite did. If Heracross is jolly and swordances, gyarados has to be at full hp and carry bounce inorder to kill heracross. So the only things that are switching into heracross will be walls. Limiting to always carrying weezing/Arcanine, in hopes of your opponent mispredicting or having the wrong moveset. Weezing has to know first if there is a heracross on the opposing team, else it can't do its job. Always fearing statusing heracross, and resulting in heracross being an unstoppable poke that will easily gain a kill everytime it comes in. Such a high reward for heracross, unlike the other guts user, heracross speed limits more those who can revenege kill it. Reversal is just pretty skilless and makes bad players look good. I dont think a win condition should just be rewarded for opponent not having a priority user/weezing. Seeing as most priority moves are terrible.

+1 252 Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 288-340 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 240-283 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I understand your philosophy, but I think it has come from your experience in things like ORAS UU/OU. It's not really a problem of the Pokémon its the problem of the Pokémon available to us. In third gen its really hard to find any offensive switch ins. The best offensive switch ins were Salamence and Tyranitar, with their useful resistances and abilities. Both of which, are way too strong for our OU environment. Heracross does not come close to their power or spammable STABs, like I already stated.

 

If you think about it, third gen in itself does not really promote any offensive switch ins anyway. Even hyper offensive teams in ORAS rely mostly on taking on hit before dying or just outright sacking a poke to get another one in. Comparisons to other gens aside, we just don't have the Pokémon, speed tiers, high power moves or scarfs to promote offensive switch ins. Again that's not because Heracross doesn't make it able to switch in offensively, its just a problem of this whole gen.

 

Lastly it doesn't help that we are missing Pokémon like Zapdos and Celebi (can come in on fighting attacks) that can threaten Heracross with Drill Peck/HP Flying or a Psychic respectively. That could fall under offensive switch ins. But again, is this Heracross' fault?

 

tl;dr: I don't think its Heracross that doesn't make us able to switch in offensively, its a problem that this whole generation always had. Therefore, this argument doesn't really warrant a ban IMO.

 

edit: also Entei would be a beast with physical Sacred Fire

Edited February 24, 2015 by ThinkNice

[Excelimpulse]

I understand your philosophy, but I think it has come from your experience in things like ORAS UU/OU. It's not really a problem of the Pokémon its the problem of the Pokémon available to us. In third gen its really hard to find any offensive switch ins. The best offensive switch ins were Salamence and Tyranitar, with their useful resistances and abilities. Both of which, are way too strong for our OU environment. Heracross does not come close to their power or spammable STABs, like I already stated.

If you think about it, third gen in itself does not really promote any offensive switch ins anyway. Even hyper offensive teams in ORAS rely mostly on taking on hit before dying or just outright sacking a poke to get another one in. Comparisons to other gens aside, we just don't have the Pokémon, speed tiers, high power moves or scarfs to promote offensive switch ins. Again that's not because Heracross doesn't make it able to switch in offensively, its just a problem of this whole gen.

Lastly it doesn't help that we are missing Pokémon like Zapdos and Celebi (can come in on fighting attacks) that can threaten Heracross with Drill Peck/HP Flying or a Psychic respectively. That could fall under offensive switch ins. But again, is this Heracross' fault?

tl;dr: I don't think its Heracross that doesn't make us able to switch in offensively, its a problem that this whole generation always had. Therefore, this argument doesn't really warrant a ban IMO.

edit: also Entei would be a beast with physical Sacred Fire

I totally agree with you about the difference and the problem with lack of pokemkn. That was well done right there.