OU Viability Thread

[Robofiend]

We'll start Miltank at B and then see what happens - maybe it'll become more viable with time. Rhydon can go B+ for now.

 

EDIT:

 

I'd like to hear thoughts on Blaziken, Swampert, Flygon and Weezing.

 

I think each deserves a boost, but maybe not. All of them seem to have useful niches. For example: Blaziken can't get Wisp'd by the common Weezing, Swampert with CB has great coverage, Flygon is a common way to cover up some of Metagross/Arcanine's weaknesses. Weezing is also pretty solid as it can't get worn down by Chansey, has a couple useful resistances, and it's super highly used. 

 

Others like Venusaur and Sceptile may also deserve some love.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

We'll start Miltank at B and then see what happens - maybe it'll become more viable with time. Rhydon can go B+ for now.

 

EDIT:

 

I'd like to hear thoughts on Blaziken, Swampert, Flygon and Weezing.

 

I think each deserves a boost, but maybe not. All of them seem to have useful niches. For example: Blaziken can't get Wisp'd by the common Weezing, Swampert with CB has great coverage, Flygon is a common way to cover up some of Metagross/Arcanine's weaknesses. Weezing is also pretty solid as it can't get worn down by Chansey, has a couple useful resistances, and it's super highly used. 

 

Others like Venusaur and Sceptile may also deserve some love.

 

Blaziken - "A": Freaking insane wallbreaker that forces Heracross to be Jolly. Neutral to Rock Slides and can take any non-SE special attack at full health. Love this thing. It also has a shit ton of versability with CB sets, SD sets, Mixed sets, and a Reversal set to keep the most experienced player on their toes.

 

Flygon - "A-": With nice resistances and a great ability, Flygon can mesh with most teams. Unfortunately it just hits like a little girl and is used mostly as a pivot with hopes it can nab a kill when something is warn down after a long drawn out fight. Most of the time I just see it force Slowbro to Slack Off and swap out.

 

Weezing - "A-": One of the best defensive walls in the game with amazing coverage moves and a crippling support movepool too. Unfortunately it runs into 4MSS and is really scared shitless of Metagross, especially those mixed-gross with Psychic that are becoming very popular. 

 

Venusaur - "A-": A brilliant pokemon with a ton of versability. Could easily see it move up with more use since it craps on a lot of common pokes, namely non-Twave Chansey and Ludicolo. 

 

Sceptile - "B": In my opinion, Sceptile is a gimmick pokemon with the power to catch a player by surprise. It has surprising versatility and great speed, but unfortunately once its set is figured out it can be handled pretty easily. A great wall breaker considering how shit our meta is, but it still leaves you asking for more. 

[BurntZebra]

Blaziken - "A": Freaking insane wallbreaker that forces Heracross to be Jolly. Neutral to Rock Slides and can take any non-SE special attack at full health. Love this thing. It also has a shit ton of versability with CB sets, SD sets, Mixed sets, and a Reversal set to keep the most experienced player on their toes.

 

Flygon - "A-": With nice resistances and a great ability, Flygon can mesh with most teams. Unfortunately it just hits like a little girl and is used mostly as a pivot with hopes it can nab a kill when something is warn down after a long drawn out fight. Most of the time I just see it force Slowbro to Slack Off and swap out.

 

Weezing - "A-": One of the best defensive walls in the game with amazing coverage moves and a crippling support movepool too. Unfortunately it runs into 4MSS and is really scared shitless of Metagross, especially those mixed-gross with Psychic that are becoming very popular. 

 

Venusaur - "A-": A brilliant pokemon with a ton of versability. Could easily see it move up with more use since it craps on a lot of common pokes, namely non-Twave Chansey and Ludicolo. 

 

Sceptile - "B": In my opinion, Sceptile is a gimmick pokemon with the power to catch a player by surprise. It has surprising versatility and great speed, but unfortunately once its set is figured out it can be handled pretty easily. A great wall breaker considering how shit our meta is, but it still leaves you asking for more. 

252+ SpA Porygon2 Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blaziken: 160-189 (103.2 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

GG.

Not really sure if I agree with sceptile and possibly weezing. Sceptile is stopped pretty consistently by venusaur+arcanine and has trouble switching in at all, as only ludicolo is somewhat of a safe switch in for sceptile. Weezing is becoming a lot less useful, mostly because of its inability to check metagross at this point in the meta, and how weak it is to aero rock slide flinches/gyarados waterfalls, its only main role is to stop heracross. Weezing is also bait for sub rhydon, unless weezing drops a coverage move for hp ice/grass. 

[codylramey]

Curselax, I mean cow, for B. Thing has so much potential and can be used for so much surprise too. Support off the hook. Just fears them op fighting types we've got in game (blaz, hera, and champ). Otherwise it's a beast. Lf weezing teammate with a fast revenge killer to get rid of them wall breakers.

I agree with this.

[Robofiend]

 Only one problem here JJ - for some reason there's no "minus" rankings. Maybe it's time though.

[Vaeldras]

 

Flygon - "A-": With nice resistances and a great ability, Flygon can mesh with most teams. Unfortunately it just hits like a little girl and is used mostly as a pivot with hopes it can nab a kill when something is warn down after a long drawn out fight. Most of the time I just see it force Slowbro to Slack Off and swap out.

 

 

Although it's base att stat isn't much, stab earthquake and superpower are still quite devastating.

Compared to something like aerodactyl flygon is way more effective at wallbreaking ko'ing slower stuff (slowbro and weezing shit on both anyway)

 

Also you didn't mention the most important reason why venusaur is so damn useful: complete immunity to breloom, leech seed spam and sleep powder.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Vaeldras

[RysPicz]

Although it's base att stat isn't much, stab earthquake and superpower are still quite devastating.

Compared to something like aerodactyl flygon is way more effective at wallbreaking ko'ing slower stuff (slowbro and weezing shit on both anyway)

 

Also you didn't mention the most important reason why venusaur is so damn useful: complete immunity to breloom, leech seed spam and sleep powder.

Breloom 2shots Venusaur with Return or DEdge. Most of Brelooms are now CB not sporepunchers.

[Vaeldras]

Breloom 2shots Venusaur with Return or DEdge. Most of Brelooms are now CB not sporepunchers.

 

weird, why would you use breloom as a choicebander over something like blaziken?

do they run spore on the cband set as well or...?

[BurntZebra]

weird, why would you use breloom as a choicebander over something like blaziken?

do they run spore on the cband set as well or...?

Different switch in opportunities, different move coverage, better priority. Also

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 157-186 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[Vaeldras]

Different switch in opportunities, different move coverage, better priority. Also

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Breloom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 157-186 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

but 

 

0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 152-182 (112.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

but it's okay, as long as you can keep the spore set at bay.

stuff such as weezing or arcanine can deal with the cband/sdance set

Edited February 3, 2016 by Vaeldras

[Robofiend]

Breloom is questionable anyway - Weezing's a nearly perfect check to CB sets and Metagross resists at least two of its attacks well enough to swap in. Not to mention that Gyarados, Arcanine, Heracross and a bunch of other offensive pokes can switch in on it. If no one's going to contest JJ's ranks, I'll just use those.

[RysPicz]

I don't think Marowak deserves to be B+. It isn't our old meta when it was the hardest available hitter, now it's simply outclassed, has practically no switches and outclassed as wallbreaker by a lot of pokes who also got very good switching opportunities (ex. Rhydon).

I'd rank it as "C" at max.

 

Also I think Charizard deserves to go up a rank. This thing is absolutely unpredictable and one misspredict when Charizard is out might cost you a poke if not the whole match. It also has a lot of switching opportunities with pokes like Skarm, Forret, Venusaur, Metagross being used often. Subdrum set is scary, Gladiator set already proved to be a goddamn monster, Sunnybeam set can even scorch the fat pink blob. Even Arcanine can't feel safe against it. It literally has no safe switch before you scout the set, and after you do, it might be already too late.

[codylramey]

I don't think Marowak deserves to be B+. It isn't our old meta when it was the hardest available hitter, now it's simply outclassed, has practically no switches and outclassed as wallbreaker by a lot of pokes who also got very good switching opportunities (ex. Rhydon).

I'd rank it as "C" at max.

 

Also I think Charizard deserves to go up a rank. This thing is absolutely unpredictable and one misspredict when Charizard is out might cost you a poke if not the whole match. It also has a lot of switching opportunities with pokes like Skarm, Forret, Venusaur, Metagross being used often. Subdrum set is scary, Gladiator set already proved to be a goddamn monster, Sunnybeam set can even scorch the fat pink blob. Even Arcanine can't feel safe against it. It literally has no safe switch before you scout the set, and after you do, it might be already too late.

Charizard is underrated in our meta imo for the reasons you listed. Pinkwings dominated the first qualifying match of the current tourny series with won. But what is the gladiator set?

[BurntZebra]

Charizard is underrated in our meta imo for the reasons you listed. Pinkwings dominated the first qualifying match of the current tourny series with won. But what is the gladiator set?

jolly max speed+3 attack coverage. I don't see it as that threatening just because of how most people run 1-3 things that are faster than 167. Jolteon is becoming rather common now as a wish user, along with the defensive gyarados set, which walls the official gladiator set that lacks thunderpunch. Aerodactyl sees a lot of usage as well. Espeon+alakazam sets are getting more usage as people have realized how ridiculously powerful they are. Starmie is also seen a lot, and is somethings hard to figure out how fast it is, unless you just want to gamble on losing your charizard before you kill a mon. 

[Robofiend]

jolly max speed+3 attack coverage. I don't see it as that threatening just because of how most people run 1-3 things that are faster than 167. Jolteon is becoming rather common now as a wish user, along with the defensive gyarados set, which walls the official gladiator set that lacks thunderpunch. Aerodactyl sees a lot of usage as well. Espeon+alakazam sets are getting more usage as people have realized how ridiculously powerful they are. Starmie is also seen a lot, and is somethings hard to figure out how fast it is, unless you just want to gamble on losing your charizard before you kill a mon. 

 

But it's not just the Gladiator set.

 

Sub Punch sets are great for catching Aerodactyl with Tpunch and Charizard's weaknesses to Rock and Water (and Electric) can be mitigated by other offensive teammates. Other pokes like Jolteon and Starmie are great at revenge-killing but can be played around to some degree, especially since Chansey is so common, and full offensive Starmies are kinda rare.

 

I've got Zard listed at B+ - it's not a meta-defining pokemon, but with the right teammates it can successfully fill its niche as a jack-of-all trades attacker and wallbreaker.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Robofiend

[BurntZebra]

But it's not just the Gladiator set.

 

Sub Punch sets are great for catching Aerodactyl with Tpunch and Charizard's weaknesses to Rock and Water (and Electric) can be mitigated by other offensive teammates. Other pokes like Jolteon and Starmie are great at revenge-killing but can be played around to some degree, especially since Chansey is so common, and full offensive Starmies are kinda rare.

 

I've got Zard listed at B+ - it's not a meta-defining pokemon, but with the right teammates it can successfully fill its niche as a jack-of-all trades attacker and wallbreaker.

Sub punch charizard isn't really worth running as it loses to arcanine and doesn't really stop chansey the same way drum zard does. Wish jolteon supports guts pokemon so well that switching in chansey vs jolteon is a risky game unless you magically found an ursaring counter. 

 

Edit:

starmies also don't have to be 252 special attack/252 speed if they're outspeeding charizard. I know a lot of starmies that just aim to outspeed base 100s, then maximizes hp, then puts the rest into special attack, which still beats charizard while being able to spin vs everything else. 

Edited February 4, 2016 by BurntZebra

[Robofiend]

Sub punch charizard isn't really worth running as it loses to arcanine and doesn't really stop chansey the same way drum zard does. Wish jolteon supports guts pokemon so well that switching in chansey vs jolteon is a risky game unless you magically found an ursaring counter. 

 

Edit:

starmies also don't have to be 252 special attack/252 speed if they're outspeeding charizard. I know a lot of starmies that just aim to outspeed base 100s, then maximizes hp, then puts the rest into special attack, which still beats charizard while being able to spin vs everything else. 

 

Right, but Zard does destroy wall-heavy teams, especially if you find a way to neuter their sweeper support early enough. I'm not saying it's A+, but that it does have a niche and plenty of options to stay threatening despite the opponent's team.

[Gunthug]

Was going to post this in the chansey thread but I think it fits here better. With Noad gone, is anyone actually keeping track of usage? In addition, even with Noad here, has anyone actually been taking usage the last couple months?

 

I know taking usage must be a huge pain in the ass for staff members (seriously, I don't want this to come off as sarcastic), but if no one is doing it then, well, that makes it pretty tough to run a usage-based tiering structure

Edited February 4, 2016 by Gunthug

[DrCraig]

Yea usage is coming like really soon Gunt, don't worry. :)

[Robofiend]

TC has seen the most recent usage stats, as soon as we get another UU in then I think all the stats will be released. I'm rather annoyed as well since the last usage update was from October.

[Gunthug]

Yea usage is coming like really soon Gunt, don't worry. :)

 

TC has seen the most recent usage stats, as soon as we get another UU in then I think all the stats will be released. I'm rather annoyed as well since the last usage update was from October.

alright i was worried it was a "usage is coming, we're sure of it!" facade while you guys didn't actually know if there was usage or not. So, going forward, usage will continue to be taken at officials?

[Arimanius]

Yeah in fact I was going to pm craig today about this, cause I had the same doubt than gun, I didn't know if usage was being taken cause I know noad used to do that among other stuff

[BurntZebra]

Tyrone is taking over usage as best as he can, as both zehkar and noad stepped down from their staff+usage positions. Also paraphrasing here, in one of the most recent updates, the way staff collected usage for tournaments changed and some usage stats got screwed up, which did not help in addition to staff members leaving the council.

[RysPicz]

jolly max speed+3 attack coverage. I don't see it as that threatening just because of how most people run 1-3 things that are faster than 167. Jolteon is becoming rather common now as a wish user, along with the defensive gyarados set, which walls the official gladiator set that lacks thunderpunch. Aerodactyl sees a lot of usage as well. Espeon+alakazam sets are getting more usage as people have realized how ridiculously powerful they are. Starmie is also seen a lot, and is somethings hard to figure out how fast it is, unless you just want to gamble on losing your charizard before you kill a mon. 

They actually don't run 1-3 things. That's not the meta. TT, PSL fights and officials can prove that.

Gladiator is anti-meta poke that shits on standard wallish teams of OU. Besides I don't see one certain set as the most threatening, but Charizard as a poke, being really threatening as you never know what it's gonna throw on you and it has no safe switches before the set is scouted.

[codylramey]

wtf is the gladiator set of zard? Sounds cool as shit and i want one.