OU Viability Thread

[Robofiend]

You're right but I don't think people invest 252 hp entirely into kingdra. Some people invest enough speed evs so that after 1 DD, they outpace certain threats like jolly flygon. So either kingdra sacrifices out on bulk, or it sacrifices its attack. 

 

I haven't exactly done the calcs but that could increase the chances of a 2hko.

 

Kingdra needs two dances to be threatening anyway - might as well go full bulky DD.

Also Jolly Flygon is so bad i just don't get why people use it.

 

 

I don't know, if you look at the requirements for an a rank, you'll notice that of the pokes i listed very few would deserve that.

Ranking a poke based on how it supports the team isn't the easiest thing to do either, but in the case of starmie rapid spin is literally the only reason why one would use that.

Interesting to see Kingdra ranked S btw, can't really argue with that considering how many problems it gives me.

 

Imo you underrated Forre/Starmie pretty badly - spikes are common and if you don't have a reliable spinner they're going to become a pain. Team support is one of those things where you're like "eh whatever who needs a spinner" and then you lose to stall and you're like "damn, I should get some support on this team".

 

Keep in mind that viability rankings are for all pokemon seen in the meta and that typically B and C rank is for stuff that just doesn't get used very much.

[RysPicz]

Flygon itself is very fucking common in OU, running jolly gives you an advantage over other Flygons that are adamant and helps you in speed ties against the Charizards that are on a rise. Seems like people did understand how insanely good of a wallbreaker sunnybeam Zard is

[Vaeldras]

Flygon itself is very fucking common in OU, running jolly gives you an advantage over other Flygons that are adamant and helps you in speed ties against the Charizards that are on a rise. Seems like people did understand how insanely good of a wallbreaker sunnybeam Zard is

 

How do you know if they're adamant or jolly doe? 

Btw now that gengar is gone and chansey became the premier sp wall, i find mixed zard to work a lot better.

A sdance predicting arcanine or gyarados puts you in an awesome position, just be sure to run overheat to 1hko metagross no matter what.

Also when you see zard you usually assume it's bdrum just to avoid harsh consequences, and that leads some people to stay in even with metagross.

Can't beat bulky water types though.

 

Kingdra needs two dances to be threatening anyway - might as well go full bulky DD.

Also Jolly Flygon is so bad i just don't get why people use it.

 

 

 

Imo you underrated Forre/Starmie pretty badly - spikes are common and if you don't have a reliable spinner they're going to become a pain. Team support is one of those things where you're like "eh whatever who needs a spinner" and then you lose to stall and you're like "damn, I should get some support on this team".

 

Keep in mind that viability rankings are for all pokemon seen in the meta and that typically B and C rank is for stuff that just doesn't get used very much.

 

Wait wait, i'm not underestimating spikes , in fact i always have forre on my team no matter what to prevent spikes AND a healer, even though i usually end up not needing any of the two. 

My B was based on what it can do defensively. but it's support abilities are probably an A on their own, ye.

Starmie is another thing, because you don't have any other reason to use it besides rapid spin and it's amazing speed. It doesn't get trapped  by magneton, it has natural cure, it works ok against offensive teams, but most of the times all it can do is just rapid spin.

It's a very good spinner, but what else can it do?

[NikhilR]

Kingdra needs two dances to be threatening anyway - might as well go full bulky DD.

Also Jolly Flygon is so bad i just don't get why people use it..

 

Speed tier is unfortunately very important in OU. While you may go full bulk, things like Flygon will still be able to check you which makes the turn you set up, kinda pointless. Jolly Ursaring, Adamant Swampert (max speed) unfortunately will be able to do at least 50% to kingdra which allows kingdra to use only 1 DD. If you were faster, then you could potentially grab the chance to faint them (assuming they're at low health) and thus preserve that bulk to set up vs something else. 

 

Jolly Flygon has its merits. Beats other flygons, speed ties modest starmie & jolly slaking, can revenge kill non +speed natured espeons. It's inferior compared to Adamant in terms of wall breaking capability, but it's always a safety net when you come up vs another flygon or pokemon in the same speed tier.

Edited October 27, 2015 by NikhilR

[Vaeldras]

 but it's always a safety net when you come up vs another flygon or pokemon in the same speed tier.

 

Not really, who guarantees you the other flygon is adamant? 

Jolly is imo an inferior nature, i'd rather have it mixed at that point.

[NikhilR]

Not really, who guarantees you the other flygon is adamant? 

 

That's true, but if I'm jolly and I'm facing another Flygon, I'm going to definitely stay in and take my chances. 

[themanone]

where would Aerodactyl and Flygon rank?

[Rendiz]

where would Aerodactyl and Flygon rank?

I would say A and B+ respectively.

[Robofiend]

I would say A and B+ respectively.

 

I tend to agree, but I think both of these might be a bit optimistic? I'd love more discussion on this, however.

 

Aerodactyl to B+:

 

Tying for the highest speed tier in OU and packing a diverse moveset that can eliminate most slower sweepers and wallbreakers, Aerodactyl excels as a sweeper, Pursuit trapper, and Revenge Killer. In particular, Aerodactyl can be indispensible for its effectiveness in killing Ursaring and Heracross, as well as being able to hit Arcanine, Metagross and Gyarados for super effective damage with it's STAB Rock Slide. Unfortunately, most of these pokemon can also abuse its relatively low attack and reliance on Choice Band and Rock Slide flinches, which can result in a big loss of momentum for Aerodactyl or even a revenge-Pursuit trap from Metagross if it mispredicts or the opponent plays around its attacks. Other lesser used pokemon like Swampert and Flygon make Aerodactyl's life harder - as Double Edge is its best attack against them but it offers little utility against other major threats like Metagross and Skarmory.

 

Unfortunately, it also struggles with a number of extremely common walls, including Slowbro, Skarmory, Weezing and Forretress. While these pokemon may not carry moves to hurt Aerodactyl (e.g. Rock Slide Forretress, Steel Wing Skarmory) they nonetheless wall it and happily take any opportunity to set up spikes against it. Even Chansey and Porygon2 can hamper its effectiveness with their respectable bulk, which allows them to 1v1 Aerodactyl fairly confidently. Because of this, Aerodactyl can only really succeed when paired with a team that can directly handle these threats by pairing with Magneton, a Rapid Spinner and/or strong wallbreakers or special walls who can limit the effectiveness of Physical walls for the opponent. As such, Aero can't really fit into A Rank at the time.

 

Flygon to B:

 

The tier's best Dragon type excels as a Choice Bander, but due to several flaws it often fails to break throug the tiers many walls. While it effectively revenge-kills Metagross, it cannot switch in on Meteor Mash and, like Aerodactyl, it pays a big price for letting Metagross in for free. While its CB EQ/Dragon Claw combo is threatening, it frequently finds itself walled by Skarmory, who is hit rather softly by Fire Punch - allowing it to pivot to a better wall like Arcanine or Slowbro. In fact, Slowbro is one of Flygon's biggest checks, as it takes less than half hp from CB Dragon Claw and pairs well with Skarmory or other Steel types. Additionally, Weezing is a threat because of how much Flygon hates getting burned and its inability to snag a 2HKO. Sets that rely on Substitute can effectively thwart Weezing, but unfortunately reduce Flygon's modest attack power even more.

 

Defensively, Flygon doesn't have too large a niche in the metagame. It checks the relatively uncommon Quakeslide users (Marowak, Aerodactyl) but fails to resist attacks from Heracross, Ursaring or Gyarados - limiting its ability to function as an offensive check to them like Aerodactyl (who can abuse Return, Fire Punch or Megahorn in a pinch). It can switch in somewhat reliably on fire attacks from Arcanine or random Fire Punches, but generally has to play cautiously to avoid getting worn down. With no passive recovery it struggles to stay healthy. In such a defensive metagame, Flygon generally struggles to sweep and sometimes becomes a liability unless the opponent's walls are adequately accounted for by other teammates. 

 

Thoughts?

[BurntZebra]

I tend to agree, but I think both of these might be a bit optimistic? I'd love more discussion on this, however.

 

Aerodactyl to B+:

 

Tying for the highest speed tier in OU and packing a diverse moveset that can eliminate most slower sweepers and wallbreakers, Aerodactyl excels as a sweeper, Pursuit trapper, and Revenge Killer. In particular, Aerodactyl can be indispensible for its effectiveness in killing Ursaring and Heracross, as well as being able to hit Arcanine, Metagross and Gyarados for super effective damage with it's STAB Rock Slide. Unfortunately, most of these pokemon can also abuse its relatively low attack and reliance on Choice Band and Rock Slide flinches, which can result in a big loss of momentum for Aerodactyl or even a revenge-Pursuit trap from Metagross if it mispredicts or the opponent plays around its attacks. Other lesser used pokemon like Swampert and Flygon make Aerodactyl's life harder - as Double Edge is its best attack against them but it offers little utility against other major threats like Metagross and Skarmory.

 

Unfortunately, it also struggles with a number of extremely common walls, including Slowbro, Skarmory, Weezing and Forretress. While these pokemon may not carry moves to hurt Aerodactyl (e.g. Rock Slide Forretress, Steel Wing Skarmory) they nonetheless wall it and happily take any opportunity to set up spikes against it. Even Chansey and Porygon2 can hamper its effectiveness with their respectable bulk, which allows them to 1v1 Aerodactyl fairly confidently. Because of this, Aerodactyl can only really succeed when paired with a team that can directly handle these threats by pairing with Magneton, a Rapid Spinner and/or strong wallbreakers or special walls who can limit the effectiveness of Physical walls for the opponent. As such, Aero can't really fit into A Rank at the time.

 

Flygon to B:

 

The tier's best Dragon type excels as a Choice Bander, but due to several flaws it often fails to break throug the tiers many walls. While it effectively revenge-kills Metagross, it cannot switch in on Meteor Mash and, like Aerodactyl, it pays a big price for letting Metagross in for free. While its CB EQ/Dragon Claw combo is threatening, it frequently finds itself walled by Skarmory, who is hit rather softly by Fire Punch - allowing it to pivot to a better wall like Arcanine or Slowbro. In fact, Slowbro is one of Flygon's biggest checks, as it takes less than half hp from CB Dragon Claw and pairs well with Skarmory or other Steel types. Additionally, Weezing is a threat because of how much Flygon hates getting burned and its inability to snag a 2HKO. Sets that rely on Substitute can effectively thwart Weezing, but unfortunately reduce Flygon's modest attack power even more.

 

Defensively, Flygon doesn't have too large a niche in the metagame. It checks the relatively uncommon Quakeslide users (Marowak, Aerodactyl) but fails to resist attacks from Heracross, Ursaring or Gyarados - limiting its ability to function as an offensive check to them like Aerodactyl (who can abuse Return, Fire Punch or Megahorn in a pinch). It can switch in somewhat reliably on fire attacks from Arcanine or random Fire Punches, but generally has to play cautiously to avoid getting worn down. With no passive recovery it struggles to stay healthy. In such a defensive metagame, Flygon generally struggles to sweep and sometimes becomes a liability unless the opponent's walls are adequately accounted for by other teammates. 

 

Thoughts?

"Arcanine, Metagross and Gyarados for super effective damage with it's STAB Rock Slide." Metagross resists rock slide and can pursuit trap aero. I would say that aerodactyl doesn't really struggle vs forretress or weezing. Weezing is usually preserved to take on a gyarados or heracross and doesn't really have the typing to switch in on aerodactyl rock slides. Forretress lacks resist to rock and no recovery and little to no offense which makes it a pretty meh switch in to aero as well. 

Flygon might not be the best dragon type since kingdra is there and beats stall and offense pretty well. Flygon's movepool is fine for the most part as slowbro takes 50% from earthquake/thunderpunch and slowbro usually likes to be at full hp or so to actually counter certain threats. Weezing hates dragon claws similar to the reason as aerodactyl. 
Its pretty safe to spam dragon claw as pokemon like metagross won't really want to risk taking a stab earthquake. 

[Rendiz]

I think Burnt summed it up pretty well but i feel like there is something to be said about aeros ability to pursuit trap dugtrio far better than everything else as well as its ability to spam Dedge if you are able to trap their steel types.

 

And with flygons excellent defensive typing it can get lots of free swaps and there is not a lot that can repeatedly swap into a CB flygon without losing a large portion of its HP.

 

I don't think those speculative rankings are particularly optimistic.

[Robofiend]

I think Burnt summed it up pretty well but i feel like there is something to be said about aeros ability to pursuit trap dugtrio far better than everything else as well as its ability to spam Dedge if you are able to trap their steel types.

 

And with flygons excellent defensive typing it can get lots of free swaps and there is not a lot that can repeatedly swap into a CB flygon without losing a large portion of its HP.

 

I don't think those speculative rankings are particularly optimistic.

 

stuff

 

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 102-120 (30.5 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 91-108 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

Sorry bout the SE point on Metagross - typo. It can however hit Arc/Metagross with EQ.

 

Aero struggles against Weezing - it needs two RS flinches to win, which is just unrealistic to ask for - not to mention it can just tbolt the shit out of you. Forretress isn't the best answer, but like I said, RS can pay the bills here or there so it's not a total trash move. Since Aero hits less hard with every other move as well, Forre can reasonably expect to sponge an RS or two, even if its just to get some spikes and then swap to something that likes taking RS better - if Aero DE's or something that's okay for Forretress too. Spikes hurt and against Stall Aero struggles.

 

Verdict: Weezing and Forretress are fine answers to Aerodactyl - they aren't perfect but it's not like you're just going to let whatever is currently in play get nuked to shit by Aero and say "BUT BUT BUT MY WEEZING I GOTA WAIT FOR HEROCROS!" while you lose teammates.

 

Like I said, Aero isn't total trash, it's just a B+ rank. It simply isn't an A Rank because it needs team support to be effective, either in the form of Magneton or lots of effective wallbreakers to beat common walls and cores. It's not the type of thing you just slap on a team and then get to sweeping, it just opens the door for too many common/viable pokes to be used.

 

----

 

Flygon is similar but like I said it struggles with those weaknesses. It doesn't have a lot of safe switch ins, it lacks recovery and it can't break common walls. Pretty much any wall is going to soak up either or both of its STAB attacks, recover and threaten it with status or spikes. There are ways Flygon can play around these faults, but all things considered its main attacks (even its coverage attacks) are just too weak to break anything in OU.

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 114-135 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- 45.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 58-69 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

After two Dclaws Weezing can either burn, PS and then burn or just swap to one 

 

Even Arcanine can work in a pinch, though it doesn't generally have any offense against Flygon.

 

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Verdict: generally when Flygon comes into play it just opens the door for Steel type threats to come in and rob its momentum. Again, it can be effective with Magneton support, but even that won't help it against Weezing and Slowbro, both of whom are highly viable and common enough to make Flygon users think twice. At most it's a B+ but even then I have trouble making sense of that - if Weezing gets worn down by Flygon it can just Pain Split back up at least enough to threaten Gyarados.

[Vaeldras]

I tend to agree, but I think both of these might be a bit optimistic? I'd love more discussion on this, however.

 

Aerodactyl to B+:

 

Tying for the highest speed tier in OU and packing a diverse moveset that can eliminate most slower sweepers and wallbreakers, Aerodactyl excels as a sweeper, Pursuit trapper, and Revenge Killer. In particular, Aerodactyl can be indispensible for its effectiveness in killing Ursaring and Heracross, as well as being able to hit Arcanine, Metagross and Gyarados for super effective damage with it's STAB Rock Slide. Unfortunately, most of these pokemon can also abuse its relatively low attack and reliance on Choice Band and Rock Slide flinches, which can result in a big loss of momentum for Aerodactyl or even a revenge-Pursuit trap from Metagross if it mispredicts or the opponent plays around its attacks. Other lesser used pokemon like Swampert and Flygon make Aerodactyl's life harder - as Double Edge is its best attack against them but it offers little utility against other major threats like Metagross and Skarmory.

 

Unfortunately, it also struggles with a number of extremely common walls, including Slowbro, Skarmory, Weezing and Forretress. While these pokemon may not carry moves to hurt Aerodactyl (e.g. Rock Slide Forretress, Steel Wing Skarmory) they nonetheless wall it and happily take any opportunity to set up spikes against it. Even Chansey and Porygon2 can hamper its effectiveness with their respectable bulk, which allows them to 1v1 Aerodactyl fairly confidently. Because of this, Aerodactyl can only really succeed when paired with a team that can directly handle these threats by pairing with Magneton, a Rapid Spinner and/or strong wallbreakers or special walls who can limit the effectiveness of Physical walls for the opponent. As such, Aero can't really fit into A Rank at the time.

 

 

tl:dr a sweeper that doesn't sweep 10/10

 

Nah, it's pretty menacing if you pair it with a good wallbreaker, it's just that most of that speed is wasted in our current meta.

Nice to know you can rely on a first strong hit but i personally wouldn't rank it higher than flygon

 

edit for zebra: cband quake spam is as safe as playing football on a highway

Edited November 24, 2015 by Vaeldras

[TheNightArch]

As we are on the topic of CB users, can I ask where would Swampert and Tauros rank?

[Vaeldras]

As we are on the topic of CB users, can I ask where would Swampert and Tauros rank?

 

Swampert is a solid A rank (i can only talk about the cband set, never bothered trying anything else).

Awesome bulk, pretty nice coverage supported by 2 devastating stabs and a good typing too.

Used to be THE perfect lead and it's still ok at that.

It has a pretty good matchup against most pokes in the tier (especially the top three, which he can easily best in a 1v1) and can threaten anything that isn't a faster grass type or slowbro.

Definitely the most valuable poke i ever had.

 

Tauros could be an A rank too, it's stabs are strong enough to make the best possible use of that otherwise not very threatening 100 base att stat.

110 base speed is a lot, especially with intimidate it means you're gonna scare away anything that isn't a wall (or aerodactyl and probably something else i'm missing).

Again intimidate is one of the best abilities in the game, that adds even more to what is already a good pokemon.

Still haven't tested mine cause happiness is a pain to max, but i feel i can safely say this deserves at least the same rank as flygon,

[BurntZebra]

Tauros can't really touch skarmory or forretress (unless running fire blast) and also has trouble with dusclops and aerodactyl. Also I believe pokemon like slowbro/arcanine are bulky enough to pivot in if protect scouting is not an option. Metagross is also an issue for tauros, being able to punish any tauros not locked into earthquake. 

[Vaeldras]

Tauros can't really touch skarmory or forretress (unless running fire blast) and also has trouble with dusclops and aerodactyl. Also I believe pokemon like slowbro/arcanine are bulky enough to pivot in if protect scouting is not an option. Metagross is also an issue for tauros, being able to punish any tauros not locked into earthquake. 

 

well sure, slowbro and knine are a perfect answer to any ph threat i can think of, tauros is not the only poke unable to break through those 2.

Aero could be stopped with iron tail, tauros doesn't have many choices with it's 4th moveslot anyway.

But ye, i didn't expect forretress to resist quake so well

 

252 Atk Choice Band Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 40-48 (21.9 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I wouldn't consider metagross that much of an issue because on the other side if you predict it and quake you're in a good position.

If works really well against offensive teams even though there are better wallbreakers, ye

[Robofiend]

I'd put Tauros at A- if I could, so I guess I'm voting B+:

 

Choice Band is an awesome item on Tauros: it has almost no coverage moves, a great Spammable STAB and a perfect partner in crime: Magneton. With steel types like Skarmory removed from play, Tauros can do some considerable damage, assuming it hits Metagross and doesn't wear itself out with the tempting Double Edge by nuking some walls first. Tauros is a good pokemon but it falls into the "needs team support" category, for sure.

 

Given its totally shitty movepool, Tauros can afford to invest in two Normal STABs and run Facade/Return as well, which is an amazing way to abuse Chansey's Toxic. I've even seen sets that don't use Choice Band and instead opt for the greater damage output from Toxic-boosted Facade. However, in such a stall-y meta, the lack of firepower can be damaging, especially when you get Intimidated by the likes of Gyarados and Arcanine.

 

Swampert is an A-rank as far as I'm concerned (maybe even +?). It's an amazing Metagross counter and with two STABs and ways of hitting every wall in the tier for respectable damage. It also boasts bulk that frailer sweepers like Aerodactyl, Ursaring and even Flygon envy when it comes to staying healthy. Nonetheless, it does have some flaws: its middling speed tier makes it weak to faster/CB Ursarings, Gyarados resists both of its STABs and like so many of the other sweepers in OU, it opens the door for Skarmory and Weezing swap in and do their thing.

[Vaeldras]

I'd put Tauros at A- if I could, so I guess I'm voting B+:

 

Choice Band is an awesome item on Tauros: it has almost no coverage moves, a great Spammable STAB and a perfect partner in crime: Magneton. With steel types like Skarmory removed from play, Tauros can do some considerable damage, assuming it hits Metagross and doesn't wear itself out with the tempting Double Edge by nuking some walls first. Tauros is a good pokemon but it falls into the "needs team support" category, for sure.

 

Given its totally shitty movepool, Tauros can afford to invest in two Normal STABs and run Facade/Return as well, which is an amazing way to abuse Chansey's Toxic. I've even seen sets that don't use Choice Band and instead opt for the greater damage output from Toxic-boosted Facade. However, in such a stall-y meta, the lack of firepower can be damaging, especially when you get Intimidated by the likes of Gyarados and Arcanine.

 

Swampert is an A-rank as far as I'm concerned (maybe even +?). It's an amazing Metagross counter and with two STABs and ways of hitting every wall in the tier for respectable damage. It also boasts bulk that frailer sweepers like Aerodactyl, Ursaring and even Flygon envy when it comes to staying healthy. Nonetheless, it does have some flaws: its middling speed tier makes it weak to faster/CB Ursarings, Gyarados resists both of its STABs and like so many of the other sweepers in OU, it opens the door for Skarmory and Weezing swap in and do their thing.

 

(always with a cb set in mind)

All skarm and  forretress can do is setting up 1 (maybe 2?) layer of spikes before dying to waterfall.

Weezing can check it, but flinches.

Shares some similiarities with metagross: Hits hard, has a lot of bulk, average speed and can fit in any team while making for a good lead.

[LuisPocho]

I'd put Tauros at A- if I could, so I guess I'm voting B+:

 

Choice Band is an awesome item on Tauros: it has almost no coverage moves, a great Spammable STAB and a perfect partner in crime: Magneton. With steel types like Skarmory removed from play, Tauros can do some considerable damage, assuming it hits Metagross and doesn't wear itself out with the tempting Double Edge by nuking some walls first. Tauros is a good pokemon but it falls into the "needs team support" category, for sure.

 

Given its totally shitty movepool, Tauros can afford to invest in two Normal STABs and run Facade/Return as well, which is an amazing way to abuse Chansey's Toxic. I've even seen sets that don't use Choice Band and instead opt for the greater damage output from Toxic-boosted Facade. However, in such a stall-y meta, the lack of firepower can be damaging, especially when you get Intimidated by the likes of Gyarados and Arcanine.

you should consider dusclops too, it can wall pretty easily all the normal banders... and now its quite popular

[OrangeManiac]

Tauros absolutely needs Magneton support and even with that it's not unbeatable. Mostly because it needs support, B+ imo.

[Robofiend]

you should consider dusclops too, it can wall pretty easily all the normal banders... and now its quite popular

 

Well that's why Tauros is at B+ - it can work, but it needs team support.

 

Dusclops is not "quite popular", its usage has been hovering around 5-8% since the Gengar ban

[Vaeldras]

Tauros absolutely needs Magneton support and even with that it's not unbeatable. Mostly because it needs support, B+ imo.

 

nah, it can take care of forretress just fine with flamethrower

[Robofiend]

nah, it can take care of forretress just fine with flamethrower

 

LF choice band

 

Also Forretress just isn't as reliable as Skarmo.

[Vaeldras]

LF choice band

 

Also Forretress just isn't as reliable as Skarmo.

 

1 usage

2 rapid spin

 

I personally find forretress to be a lot more versatile: it can spin, it can heal with pain split predicting a switch, it can use screens, it can surprise magneton with quake...