OU Viability Thread

[KaynineXL]

 

K here are some changes:

 

 

Kingdra to S: An undeniably good pokemon whose one great check, Ludicolo, has fallen by the wayside as Chansey has become more popular. DD punishes teams lacking Gyarados and Rain is almost unfairly good once Chansey and Porygon have been worn down. Versatility is always nice - and some physical sets exploit common switch ins like Gyarados by running HP Electric.

Metagross back to S: For a while I had this thing at A+ but it's so common and so useful in a world where Toxic stall dominates and CB Tpunch is relatively unresisted by common walls. Great poke that defines the metagame.

 

Chansey to A+: while it's blobishness hurts, it absolutely shuts down most bulky teams without a cleric and can even destroy offense with spikes and status. Easy the tier's most reliable (if not best) special wall

Arcanine to A+: A great wall that can hurt bulky waters, prevent Reversal sweeps and generally piss off phys sweepers with its handy ability and reliable recovery. 

Gyarados to A+: A sweeper that doesn't care about much except P2 and Weezing. Commonly used with a useful ablity.

 

Starmie remains A: even if t can't sweep very reliably, its ability as a status absorber and rapid spinner with recovery is inherently useful.

Forretress to A: Rapid spinning is great, as is its reliability against non HP Fire Magneton (who are rather uncommon). A spiker that can run a mixed defensive set with Toxic if it needs to. Pain Split is a massive boon in a tier filled with things that love to abuse 1 turn recovery.

Marowak to A: A former star of OU that has returned to break walls once again. With fewer water types in the tier and the stats to punch huge holes in grounded teams with Bonemerang or EQ, Marowak should be feared and has begun to see more use because of it.

Ursaring to A: An awesome Toxic stall check with amazing coverage for teams that don't want to give up a spot for Magneton. Absolutely runs over walls, but can be worn down pretty easily by ambient damage.

Heracross to A: Like Ursaring, Guts make it scary (as does SD) and it abuses Chansey particularly well by either Pursuit trapping it or setting up on the Protect to go for a sweep. Unfortunately, it falters against Skamory

Skarmory to A: The steel bird is master of OU spikes and unlike Forretress, it can Taunt, Rest, and Drill Peck well. Its sky-high defense prevents sweeps from Aerodactyls, Heracross or Metagross and Whirlwind is incredibly useful against common Dragon Dancers.

Magneton to A: The trapper that everyone kinda loves (unlike Dugtrio) who can dewall your team handily if you let it get a sub up. While its ground weakness can be pitiful and its movepool shallow, it's currently the only common special attacker that can take out a Chansey in a pinch - Metal Sound combines amazingly well with Spikes to irritate and wear down bulky teams without a Marowak. 

 

Tauros to B+: Imo its underrated, especially when it has Facade, Pursuit, EQ and it has only benefitted from Magneton's high usage.

 

I would also like some debate here. 

 

I don't think Kingdra should be S rank. It's good no doubt, but I don't think S rank at all.

 

Modest rain dancer - Easily stopped by Chansey which is all over the place. That does not fit into S rank at all.

Ada DD - Imo, the best DD set is the ChestoResto set, and to be quite honest, it's pretty good.. and can do a lot.. Thing is, for me, this is just a one trick pony. What I mean by that, once it does it's thing.. and uses its Chesto, it's just not nearly as useful. If you fight it with a water Pokemon and force it to Outrage you can switch on the popular Metagross and trade kills(unless you predict the Outrage).

 

My conclusion, I think it's solid, but it's not good enough for S rank. Outrage is too easy to play against with it locking you in. Sure you can use Frustration/Return instead of Outrage, but it does lose a good bit of damage. The fact it's not used that often just goes to show it's not as reliable as something like Metagross which can absolutely annihilate a team if it gets that +1.

 

I would say A/A+ for Kingdra.

 

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Metagross, I agree with you. S rank for me. It has quite a few sets, can be used a sweeper or a CBer. If given the chance to get agility and +1 from meteor, can be devastating.

 

---

 

 

I do feel Ursaring should be A+, give it a toxic and you will know about it. Even without guts, it really is strong and can kill many of the bulky walls that try switch in to fight it. The only thing that may keep it from being A+ is it's speed, I feel it slightly edges A+ though.

Edited October 27, 2015 by KaynineXL

[DoubleJ]

I don't think Kingdra should be S rank. It's good no doubt, but I don't think S rank at all.

 

Modest rain dancer - Easily stopped by Chansey which is all over the place. That does not fit into S rank at all.

Ada DD - Imo, the best DD set is the ChestoResto set, and to be quite honest, it's pretty good.. and can do a lot.. Thing is, for me, this is just a one trick pony. What I mean by that, once it does it's thing.. and uses its Chesto, it's just not nearly as useful. If you fight it with a water Pokemon and force it to Outrage you can switch on the popular Metagross and trade kills(unless you predict the Outrage).

 

My conclusion, I think it's solid, but it's not good enough for S rank. Outrage is too easy to play against with it locking you in. Sure you can use Frustration/Return instead of Outrage, but it does lose a good bit of damage. The fact it's not used that often just goes to show it's not as reliable as something like Metagross which can absolutely annihilate a team if it gets that +1.

 

I would say A/A+ for Kingdra.

 

---

 

Metagross, I agree with you. S rank for me. It has quite a few sets, can be used a sweeper or a CBer. If given the chance to get agility and +1 from meteor, can be devastating.

 

---

 

 

I do feel Ursaring should be A+, give it a toxic and you will know about it. Even without guts, it really is strong and can kill many of the bulky walls that try switch in to fight it. The only thing that may keep it from being A+ is it's speed, I feel it slightly edges A+ though.

 

 

I 100% agree with everything K9 just said. I too feel Kingdra is a bit overrated when it's being listed as an S-rank. Metagross is a perfect S. Ursaring is also an absolute monster that can OHKO damn near everything after one Swords Dance. It requires some seriously crafty play to avoid losing at least one pokemon when an Ursaring comes in favorably. 

[Robofiend]

Updated, solid points.

[KaynineXL]

Would just like to point out as well, I think Slaking deserves more than C rank. With Gengar gone, it's no surprise that normal spammers are getting more use. It can be an insane wall breaker if played right. That said, it does have quite a big weakness, to those who are faster with sub, or those that can protect. I have seen it being used every so often and it seems to do well.

 

If this was my ranking system, I would place it at B/B+.

 

 

Also, I would be tempted to put Wak down to B+, I know it can do good damage, but really to get to that very good damage, you need a +2, with it's speed it's a bit sketchy. I honestly can't see it being ranked the same as the likes of Hera, Arc, Skarm, Starmie.

Edited October 27, 2015 by KaynineXL

[codylramey]

Would just like to point out as well, I think Slaking deserves more than C rank. With Gengar gone, it's no surprise that normal spammers are getting more use. It can be an insane wall breaker if played right. That said, it does have quite a big weakness, to those who are faster with sub, or those that can protect. I have seen it being used every so often and it seems to do well.

 

If this was my ranking system, I would place it at B/B+.

 

 

Also, I would be tempted to put Wak down to B+, I know it can do good damage, but really to get to that very good damage, you need a +2, with it's speed it's a bit sketchy. I honestly can't see it being ranked the same as the likes of Hera, Arc, Skarm, Starmie.

Slaking is also set up bait for some of the most dangerous sweepers. Although they arent too common sub gyara, any subversal poke, drumzard.

[KaynineXL]

Slaking is also set up bait for some of the most dangerous sweepers. Although they arent too common sub gyara, any subversal poke, drumzard.

Thing is... how would you get yourself in that situation? If you're 1v1 against those that would generally use sub, why would you even attack? It's not like any of those are going to switch into you.

[codylramey]

Thing is... how would you get yourself in that situation? If you're 1v1 against those that would generally use sub, why would you even attack? It's not like any of those are going to switch into you.

Usually you would sac something. Its worse set up bait than umbreon imo bc at least umby has taunt. But espeed support can help mend this a lot, with the exception of gyaradose.

[KaynineXL]

Usually you would sac something. Its worse set up bait than umbreon imo bc at least umby has taunt. But espeed support can help mend this a lot, with the exception of gyaradose.

I disagree with this. Firstly sacking something just so something can sub on your switch is not a good trade unless you 100% know you can sweep or do a lot with the sub.

 

Say I am Slaking.. You think, oh that is perfect, I will setup on this.. Let me just sac my Jolteon so I can come in and sub with Gyarados. You can just switch to whatever your Gyara counter is. Can even go skarm and just WW it out, and look, you sacked a Pokemon just for that.

[OrangeManiac]

I would go far enough to claim Kingdra S rank. This is both by playing with it and playing against it. Kingdra is impossible to counter and this isn't an overstatement. You actually need a core to counter it. Basically something that resists Waterfall (so only Grass/Water type) and something that can take Outrage (Steel-type). With this combination Kingdra is relatively held in checks but without this combo not only can DD Kingdra sweep easily I've felt it most of the time gets at least SOMETHING down.

 

Marowak is not A rank. B rank would be the maximum I would give it to it right now. It wallbreaks Chansey and Umbreon nicely, yes. It's immune to the main status move of Chansey. There is a lot going for it but despite the wallbreaking, it is just meh. It dies to too much stuff and it barely can get a hit off against anything. It can get a one kill off at max, then either just accept to die unless some hero play against the revenge killer. I think Marowak could be a member of a team that has notable problems against Chansey + Weezing + Umbreon and try to break it. Bringing Marowak as your general "physical sweeper" isn't the greatest idea though at least based on my experiences. Maybe B+ because of being easily the best (non-gimmicky) defensive core breaker barring Ursaring. But not A.

 

Other than I think I agree with everything else here.

Oh yeah, and Metagross is the most S as a Pokemon could ever be.

Porygon2 to me is A rank. Amazing tank, amazing Gyara counter, amazing Jolteon counter. This alone makes it really good but it just takes hits so well and that STAB Tri Attack with that coverage is really good.

 

Flygon: B+ maaaaaybe A. A bit annoyingly easy countered physical sweeper in my taste. Needs really hero predictions and/or Magneton support to really work. It's a nice late game sweeper but it just can't get stuff done reliably.

Edited October 27, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[Vaeldras]

 

K here are some changes:

 

 

Kingdra to S: An undeniably good pokemon whose one great check, Ludicolo, has fallen by the wayside as Chansey has become more popular. DD punishes teams lacking Gyarados and Rain is almost unfairly good once Chansey and Porygon have been worn down. Versatility is always nice - and some physical sets exploit common switch ins like Gyarados by running HP Electric.

Metagross back to S: For a while I had this thing at A+ but it's so common and so useful in a world where Toxic stall dominates and CB Tpunch is relatively unresisted by common walls. Great poke that defines the metagame.

 

Chansey to A+: while it's blobishness hurts, it absolutely shuts down most bulky teams without a cleric and can even destroy offense with spikes and status. Easy the tier's most reliable (if not best) special wall

Arcanine to A+: A great wall that can hurt bulky waters, prevent Reversal sweeps and generally piss off phys sweepers with its handy ability and reliable recovery. 

Gyarados to A+: A sweeper that doesn't care about much except P2 and Weezing. Commonly used with a useful ablity.

 

Starmie remains A: even if t can't sweep very reliably, its ability as a status absorber and rapid spinner with recovery is inherently useful.

Forretress to A: Rapid spinning is great, as is its reliability against non HP Fire Magneton (who are rather uncommon). A spiker that can run a mixed defensive set with Toxic if it needs to. Pain Split is a massive boon in a tier filled with things that love to abuse 1 turn recovery.

Marowak to A: A former star of OU that has returned to break walls once again. With fewer water types in the tier and the stats to punch huge holes in grounded teams with Bonemerang or EQ, Marowak should be feared and has begun to see more use because of it.

Ursaring to A: An awesome Toxic stall check with amazing coverage for teams that don't want to give up a spot for Magneton. Absolutely runs over walls, but can be worn down pretty easily by ambient damage.

Heracross to A: Like Ursaring, Guts make it scary (as does SD) and it abuses Chansey particularly well by either Pursuit trapping it or setting up on the Protect to go for a sweep. Unfortunately, it falters against Skamory

Skarmory to A: The steel bird is master of OU spikes and unlike Forretress, it can Taunt, Rest, and Drill Peck well. Its sky-high defense prevents sweeps from Aerodactyls, Heracross or Metagross and Whirlwind is incredibly useful against common Dragon Dancers.

Magneton to A: The trapper that everyone kinda loves (unlike Dugtrio) who can dewall your team handily if you let it get a sub up. While its ground weakness can be pitiful and its movepool shallow, it's currently the only common special attacker that can take out a Chansey in a pinch - Metal Sound combines amazingly well with Spikes to irritate and wear down bulky teams without a Marowak. 

 

Tauros to B+: Imo its underrated, especially when it has Facade, Pursuit, EQ and it has only benefitted from Magneton's high usage.

 

I would also like some debate here. 

 

 

 

I think you're systematically ranking things a bit low. Gard might be a bit below A rank. Would love to see more discussion on all of these. Starmie is staying A rank for reasons listed in my post, although the sweeper set is bad it's still a grade-A rapid spinner in a tier drowning in Spikes.

 

 

I don't know, if you look at the requirements for an a rank, you'll notice that of the pokes i listed very few would deserve that.

Ranking a poke based on how it supports the team isn't the easiest thing to do either, but in the case of starmie rapid spin is literally the only reason why one would use that.

Interesting to see Kingdra ranked S btw, can't really argue with that considering how many problems it gives me.

[KaynineXL]

I would go far enough to claim Kingdra S rank. This is both by playing with it and playing against it. Kingdra is impossible to counter and this isn't an overstatement. You actually need a core to counter it. Basically something that resists Waterfall (so only Grass/Water type) and something that can take Outrage (Steel-type). With this combination Kingdra is relatively held in checks but without this combo not only can DD Kingdra sweep easily I've felt it most of the time gets at least SOMETHING down.

 

Marowak is not A rank. B rank would be the maximum I would give it to it right now. It wallbreaks Chansey and Umbreon nicely, yes. It's immune to the main status move of Chansey. There is a lot going for it but despite the wallbreaking, it is just meh. It dies to too much stuff and it barely can get a hit off against anything. It can get a one kill off at max, then either just accept to die unless some hero play against the revenge killer. I think Marowak could be a member of a team that has notable problems against Chansey + Weezing + Umbreon and try to break it. Bringing Marowak as your general "physical sweeper" isn't the greatest idea though at least based on my experiences. Maybe B+ because of being easily the best (non-gimmicky) defensive core breaker barring Ursaring. But not A.

 

Other than I think I agree with everything else here.

Oh yeah, and Metagross is the most S as a Pokemon could ever be.

Porygon2 to me is A rank. Amazing tank, amazing Gyara counter, amazing Jolteon counter. This alone makes it really good but it just takes hits so well and that STAB Tri Attack with that coverage is really good.

 

Flygon: B+ maaaaaybe A. A bit annoyingly easy countered physical sweeper in my taste. Needs really hero predictions and/or Magneton support to really work. It's a nice late game sweeper but it just can't get stuff done reliably.

Your Kingdra point. You say you need a core.. Any good team will have a steel type like Metagross/Skarmory/Forre, especially with normal spammers, and let's just not forget how valuable Metagross is... You really shouldn't need to worry about steel. As for water, I really dislike not having at least 1 water resist Pokemon in a team, and again, Slowbro is a popular choice. As I said before, it's a one trick pony, once you got it to outrage it's pretty much exhausted. Even if you don't have a steel poke, confuse can be a nuisance which can stop sweeps.

 

 

As for Maro, I agree for the most part but you say it resists Chanseys main status, to me it's like 75% toxic 25% twave.

 

Agree with your Porygon point.

 

Flygon I feel deserves higher than that, I would say it fits at A rank. Great typing, duel stabs, fast, very good resists and immunities, to top it off it's got the rare Dragon claw stab.

[Vaeldras]

Your Kingdra point. You say you need a core.. Any good team will have a steel type like Metagross/Skarmory/Forre, especially with normal spammers, and let's just not forget how valuable Metagross is... You really shouldn't need to worry about steel. As for water, I really dislike not having at least 1 water resist Pokemon in a team, and again, Slowbro is a popular choice. As I said before, it's a one trick pony, once you got it to outrage it's pretty much exhausted. Even if you don't have a steel poke, confuse can be a nuisance which can stop sweeps.

 

 

As for Maro, I agree for the most part but you say it resists Chanseys main status, to me it's like 75% toxic 25% twave.

 

Agree with your Porygon point.

 

Flygon I feel deserves higher than that, I would say it fits at A rank. Great typing, duel stabs, fast, very good resists and immunities, to top it off it's got the rare Dragon claw stab.

 

How would return/waterfall work against a water/steel core? is the loss of damage significant to the point of preventing a sweep?

[KaynineXL]

How would return/waterfall work against a water/steel core? is the loss of damage significant to the point of preventing a sweep?

Well, it would be quite a chunk less damage to something like Slowbro. Using Return isn't uncommon on Kingdra.

[Vaeldras]

Well, it would be quite a chunk less damage to something like Slowbro. Using Return isn't uncommon on Kingdra.

 

But can slowbro even touch kingdra?  (besides annoying twave but chesto so who gives af)

[NikhilR]

But can slowbro even touch kingdra?  (besides annoying twave but chesto so who gives af)

 

CM set wrecks Kingdra.

[BurntZebra]

CM set wrecks Kingdra.

In theory, kingdra still beats slowbro, unless slowbro predicts when kingdra outrages and slack off stalls it until kingdra is confused.

+1 0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 79-94 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

+3 252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 115-136 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(assuming slowbro comes in while kingdra dragon dances, they both set up another turn, then kingdra dragon dances again, while slowbro can either calm mind or psychic)

[NikhilR]

In theory, kingdra still beats slowbro, unless slowbro predicts when kingdra outrages and slack off stalls it until kingdra is confused.

+1 0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 79-94 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

+3 252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 115-136 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(assuming slowbro comes in while kingdra dragon dances, they both set up another turn, then kingdra dragon dances again, while slowbro can either calm mind or psychic)

 

You're right but I don't think people invest 252 hp entirely into kingdra. Some people invest enough speed evs so that after 1 DD, they outpace certain threats like jolly flygon. So either kingdra sacrifices out on bulk, or it sacrifices its attack. 

 

I haven't exactly done the calcs but that could increase the chances of a 2hko.

Edited October 27, 2015 by NikhilR

[Vaeldras]

I did run the same calcs with 0 hp kingdra too.

I don't see it as a good strategy though, more like relying on bad plays. Doesn't even need to predict, psychic spam works.

Not sure if leftovers kingdra can take 3 uninvested psychics though, i should run some calcs. 

 

 

[spoiler]But i won't.[/spoiler]

[KaynineXL]

Well, if they lock in outrage, you can go to a steel type. If they run return, I doubt it wins bro. Not only that, they don't run 252 hp.

[Vaeldras]

Well, if they lock in outrage, you can go to a steel type. If they run return, I doubt it wins bro. Not only that, they don't run 252 hp.

 

Right, totally forgot the premise.

We were talking about return kingdra too, lmao.

So k, it gets competely shuts down by slowbro in particular and a steel type.

[KaynineXL]

Right, totally forgot the premise.

We were talking about return kingdra too, lmao.

So k, it gets competely shuts down by slowbro in particular and a steel type.

There are other things too, I think Cloyster is one of the best also.

[Vaeldras]

There are other things too, I think Cloyster is one of the best also.

 

Haze weezing probably

 

Edit: Heck, even skarmory or any phazer with access to healing.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Vaeldras

[BurntZebra]

Metagross won't do a whole lot to kingdra either, especially in one turn before outrage ends. Metagross will only do about 45% to kingdra with earthquake.

[KaynineXL]

Metagross won't do a whole lot to kingdra either, especially in one turn before outrage ends. Metagross will only do about 45% to kingdra with earthquake.

Outrage can last up to like 3 turns? and then confuse after?

Edited October 27, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Vaeldras]

+1 252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 54-64 (28.8 - 34.2%) -- 3.2% chance to 3HKO

 

Assuming kingdra is at full health, it's a bit risky.

If it manages to land every hit metagross is dead.

 

Edit: Using resto chesto, that is.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Vaeldras